Confrontation or Collabortation? (Join Us for the Journey)

[Gibs]

Tom and all,

I don't doubt you don't like Texe Marrs but that has nothing to do with the irs coming in and letting him know what he could not preach against and there were several and the SDA's will never preach again them that I know for sure. There are now many very good ministries that will not be 501c3 compliant for the same reason. Some are self supporting and don't ask for donations but the local group pays for airtime and outreach. It just amounts to the fact of first compliance to the world whom they have become a part of. The crackdown is coming down tighter and tighter when the church must not stand under any other master even in the smallest part. Money, it's all about money, mammon, the god of this world.

By the way though I would like to know where you or any fault Texe Marrs on his ministry. I hear his weekly Bible Home church message each time and it is straight testimony and gets to the point and is only up to one half hour. There is no weaving in of spiritualism and the occult as he is strong against those things.

Back to the issue for now is this important letter to SDA's and here is a couple little quotes from it,

"Postmodern culture supremely values inclusiveness and tolerance—to a fault. Anything appearing partisan or divisive is automatically dismissed as unworthy of belief. What succeeds is a humble yet confident sense of doctrinal identity communicated in an inclusive, winsome spirit. This approach emerges: If it weren’t for fellow Christians who prepared the way, we Adventists wouldn’t exist. Join us for the rest of the journey".

But folks it used to be this way,

"Historically, however, Adventists have tended toward confrontational outreach. A century ago and more, Adventist evangelists often were master debaters. They arrived in town, pitched a big tent, and challenged local preachers to doctrinal debates. Quick on the draw with silver bullet proof texts, the Adventist won the spiritual showdown. He carried much of the crowd into subsequent evangelistic meetings. Before leaving town, he planted a church".

Now they do "emerging church", an opposite turn, come help get it back on track is my plead.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

That says it all Tom!! As soon as I saw the article about Timothy McVeigh being framed!!!!!!! Unreal!!!

[Gibs]

Many hated Jesus Christ too and so Texe isn't alone there. One day you may just find Texe is the best Christian investigator in the business and like he says, I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" but a "conspiracy scientist".

From me, all would do well to hear him out on many subjects.

The topic here at hand is collaboratin or confrontation, well how can confrontation not be had in the face of what is coming into the church today and in the past.

EGW made a atatement on the fact of being overcomers and I really like the way she states it and approaches the subject. This is one of the points I confront.

"Do not say, "It is impossible for me to overcome." Do not say, "It is my nature to do thus and so, and I can not do otherwise. I have inherited weaknesses that make me powerless before temptation." In your own strength you can not overcome, but help has been laid upon One that is mighty. Breathe the prayer, "Show me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths." Then believe the promise, "The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way." Yes, the Lord says, "I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye."

In order to receive the virtue of the blood of Christ, even the forgiveness of your sins, you must consent to the conditions he imposes. "If any man will come after me," he says, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Seeking pardon of sin from his cross, you will seek direction from his throne. Looking to and believing in Christ as your personal Saviour, is your only hope of salvation. Receiving Christ in all his completeness, you are in truth able to sing:-- 　

"I will follow thee, my Saviour,

Wheresoe'er my lot may be.

Where thou goest, I will follow;

Yes, my Lord, I'll follow thee."

God has given his Holy Spirit as a power sufficient to subdue all your hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. By yielding the mind to the control of the Spirit, you will grow into the likeness of God's perfect character, and will become an instrumentality through which he can reveal his mercy, his goodness and his love.

Whatever may be your defects, the Holy Spirit will reveal them, and grace will be given you to overcome. Through the merits of the blood of Christ you may be a conqueror, yes, more than a conqueror. Will you who read these words resolve never again to excuse your defects of character by saying, "It is my way"? Let no one again declare, "I can not change my natural habits and tendencies." Let the truth be admitted into the soul, and it will work to sanctify the character.

Beholding Christ, we are changed through the power of the Holy Spirit. When this change takes place, the hands, the tongue, the feet, act in accord with the heart's spiritual advancement. Faith is a shining light, shining more and more unto the perfect day. We no longer plead for our will to be done, or for our old ways and habits to be left undisturbed. The converting power of God molds us after the divine similitude,--after the likeness of the One who is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." {YI, October 2, 1902.}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Neil D]

Many hated Jesus Christ too and so Texe isn't alone there. One day you may just find Texe is the best Christian investigator in the business and like he says, I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" but a "conspiracy scientist".

From me, all would do well to hear him out on many subjects.

The topic here at hand is collaboration or confrontation, well how can confrontation not be had in the face of what is coming into the church today and in the past.

I am reminded of a couple of things.....

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

From a blog that I read not to long ago.....on the religious confronting others....

Pentecost was a Jewish feast, and Jews from all over the world had made pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate it. These were the people who filled the streets when they heard the sound of the “rushing, mighty wind,” and these were the people who heard the disciples glorifying God in their own languages.

So…who was Peter preaching to in such a confrontational manner? Who was Peter’s audience?

The religious.

The truth is, Acts 2 was one sermon, in one context. If we go back to Jesus’ example, we’ll see that he spoke to different people in a variety of ways, according to what the context called for. In most cases, when he was speaking to known sinners, he spoke with great mercy (e.g., Zaccheus, the Samaritan woman, the woman caught in adultery), and love brought its own conviction. In fact, there was only one kind of person with whom Jesus was openly confrontational, with whom He got “in their face”. Can you guess who it was?

The religious.

Do you see a pattern?

Here’s what I think: I think there is something about religion that dulls our spiritual senses. It’s not unlike how a vaccine works: we inject a weakened or dead form of a virus into our bodies to inoculate us against the real thing. Only in this case, the “real thing” is something good, not something harmful, and the “vaccine” prevents us from receiving all the benefit from what is real and good. Religion tends to make us self-satisified and self-assured, so when the real thing comes along, we reject it and react against it. That’s exactly what happened when Jesus came to earth, according to Scripture:

“He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God…” (Jn. 1:11-12, NASB)

I think the reason “His own did not receive Him” was because over time, the Jews (in particular, the Jewish leaders) had taken the Law and the Prophets and expanded it into an extensive religion beyond what God had intended–and that religion became their downfall. (By that, I am NOT suggesting, in a “Mel Gibson” kind of way, that Judaism was an enemy of Christ; I am saying religion was the enemy.) Jesus’ presence was actually a fulfillment of the Jewish Law, but the religious Jews didn’t see it that way because religion had put filters upon their eyes. They simply could not see (or refused to see) that Jesus was fulfilling their own Scriptures. To accept Jesus for Who He was would have meant dismantling every false premise they had come to rely on–and some people just don’t want to do that.

I think Jesus butted heads with the religious leaders (at least in part) because it really takes a greater jarring to shake up religious mindsets. It requires a more in-your-face approach to awaken us from our lethargy. I know in my own life, losing my religion was not an easy process at all. My religious mindsets had to be repeatedly confronted and refuted (not always through argument, but quite often through circumstances) in order to awaken me to the fact that my religion wasn’t working. Thankfully, I had enough hunger for the truth that I was able to awaken from my own religious slumber and embrace the real thing–and I still think that’s an ongoing process for me.

Perhaps, I am doing the devil's work and am opposing "the gospel" as you see it, Gibs...but from my perspective, God has been rather silent, as mass communication techniques improve....And since a lot of people would definately listen to God, if God were to speak openly, would the converse also be true...that if God were to QUIETLY announce His presence in a voice just behind the ear, that we also would listen?

If so, then perhaps He is speaking to us, at least, those of us who dare to listen...And have decided not to get into confrontational matches with others.....

Peace...

[Gibs]

Ha, Ha, That's what it was all about always all the way up through, confrontation with the false way set up by men and the working to get men back to the true way. What's wonton to be heard today is them "smooth things" and that's what they get to keep the numbers large in the pews.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

The whole trouble with the USA today is the failure of Christianity to bring to the people the truth. Continuance in sin is condoned. For instance abortion rates among those in churches runs about the same as those outside. It is killing under a different name but it is still killing. The same with the divorce rate. We are fast falling as a nation because God cannot bless this country running so rampant in sin and the very ones who stand up as preachers do not confront the sins that are so rampant. Instead they are told you are all forgiven, Jesus done it all once and for all and once you come to your knees and repent once you are in like Flynn. Then life goes on the same as before.

So I am confronting the church with this statement that is very, very true and by the one SDA's hold dear. EGW speaks,

"Do not say, "It is impossible for me to overcome." Do not say, "It is my nature to do thus and so, and I can not do otherwise. I have inherited weaknesses that make me powerless before temptation." In your own strength you can not overcome, but help has been laid upon One that is mighty. Breathe the prayer, "Show me thy ways, O Lord; teach me thy paths." Then believe the promise, "The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way." Yes, the Lord says, "I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye."

In order to receive the virtue of the blood of Christ, even the forgiveness of your sins, you must consent to the conditions he imposes. "If any man will come after me," he says, "let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Seeking pardon of sin from his cross, you will seek direction from his throne. Looking to and believing in Christ as your personal Saviour, is your only hope of salvation. Receiving Christ in all his completeness, you are in truth able to sing:-- 　

"I will follow thee, my Saviour,

Wheresoe'er my lot may be.

Where thou goest, I will follow;

Yes, my Lord, I'll follow thee."

God has given his Holy Spirit as a power sufficient to subdue all your hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. By yielding the mind to the control of the Spirit, you will grow into the likeness of God's perfect character, and will become an instrumentality through which he can reveal his mercy, his goodness and his love.

Whatever may be your defects, the Holy Spirit will reveal them, and grace will be given you to overcome. Through the merits of the blood of Christ you may be a conqueror, yes, more than a conqueror. Will you who read these words resolve never again to excuse your defects of character by saying, "It is my way"? Let no one again declare, "I can not change my natural habits and tendencies." Let the truth be admitted into the soul, and it will work to sanctify the character.

Beholding Christ, we are changed through the power of the Holy Spirit. When this change takes place, the hands, the tongue, the feet, act in accord with the heart's spiritual advancement. Faith is a shining light, shining more and more unto the perfect day. We no longer plead for our will to be done, or for our old ways and habits to be left undisturbed. The converting power of God molds us after the divine similitude,--after the likeness of the One who is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." {YI, October 2, 1902.}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.