In our Nation?

[skyblue888]

Good question teresa.

sky

[doug yowell]

What part of,

Quote:

In 1797, the United States Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not,

in any sense,

founded on the Christian religion;

[16]

did you not understand?

I was responding to the false charge that the country's heritage did not include an explicit, or otherwise, religious heritage.The fact that we have a secular form of government does not exclude the religious beliefs that led to the very beginning of the existence of the USA. Our governmental currency has In God We Trust printed on it. Our founding document states the same thing.As do the words of our Nation Anthem.Our President takes his oath of office with his hand on the Bible. Congressional meetings are opened with prayer. A Seventh-day Adventist is the official congressional chaplain.Governmental workers are paid to celebrate national holidays like Christmas and Thanksgiving.The constitutions of every state in the Union (I think)express their thanks to God for the blessings of liberty.How do these and thousands of other facts line up with the meaning of the Treaty of Tripoli's statement?

[teresaq]

What part of,

Quote:

In 1797, the United States Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not,

in any sense,

founded on the Christian religion;

[16]

did you not understand?

[doug yowell]

I gave you a number of specifically religious (notice I didn't say specifically "Christian" which is what the Tripoli Treaty states)examples of what the country has preached and practiced. I asked you to harmonize these specifically religious activities with what was stated in the treaty. Does one annul the other? Do they all harmonize? Does the Treaty's language need more clarification? Is the Treaty to be seen as THE official determinate of what we are? Is the Declaration of Independence, with it's blatant appeal to God, irrelevent to the understanding of our heritage? Here's another example of one of our founder's references to religion in an innaugural address: "I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our fathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life;who has covered our infancy with His providence and our riper years with His wisdom and power, and to whose goodness I ask you to join in supplications with me that He will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measurements..."----Thomas Jefferson March 4,1805 Does this statement not reflect an undeniable religious heritage?

[doug yowell]

17 Frank Lambert (February 3, 2005). "Introduction". The Founding Fathers and the Place of Religion in America. Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-691-12602-9. Retrieved June 21, 2008. "By their actions, the Founding Fathers made clear that their primary concern was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion. Individuals, not the government, would define religious faith and practice in the United States. Thus the Founders ensured that in no official sense would America be a Christian Republic. Ten years after the Constitutional Convention ended its work, the country assured the world that the United States was a secular state, and that its negotiations would adhere to the rule of law, not the dictates of the Christian faith. The assurances were contained in the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 and were intended to allay the fears of the Muslim state by insisting that religion would not govern how the treaty was interpreted and enforced. John Adams and the Senate made clear that the pact was between two sovereign states, not between two religious powers."

___________

This is an excellent example of what this country's government was designed to be. It is however, not the same as what the thread's author (not Teresa)is arguing.

[teresaq]

Doug, what exactly are you not comprehending in this statement? Perhaps you are not getting that as an individual one can say or practice almost whatever one wishes, but as a nation we are secular and not originating from a Christian point of view, nor any other "religious" point of view?.

Perhaps if you were more acquainted with the religious persecution of the world as well as in this country you might understand more where the framers of our nation were coming from?

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

What part of,

Quote:

In 1797, the United States Senate ratified a treaty with Tripoli that stated in Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not,

in any sense,

founded on the Christian religion;

[16]

did you not understand?

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

I was responding to the false charge that the country's heritage did not include an explicit, or otherwise, religious heritage.

Okaaaaaay. The founding fathers quite clearly state

Quote:

As the Government of the United States of America

is not,

in any sense,

founded

on the

Christian

religion;

so where do you see the "explicit, or otherwise, religious heritage" here?

[doug yowell]

Doug, what exactly are you not comprehending in this statement? Perhaps you are not getting that as an individual one can say or practice almost whatever one wishes, but as a nation we are secular and not originating from a Christian point of view, nor any other "religious" point of view?.

Again, I gave you numerous examples of government officials who spoke in their official capacity about the need for religion to buttress the direction of a secularly established government. the citizens of the US pay the salaries of congressional chaplains. Our official currency states In God We Trust as well as our National Anthem. None of my examples that you refuse to address are individuals speaking from their own religious perspective, they are official governmental admissions of the importance of religion in the descision making processes of the nation.These are government actions that are very religiously based. In light of what your quoted author states I was asking how they are consistent with the conclusions that she makes by applying the Treaty of Tropli's statement. Can you address my question?

[teresaq]

Quote:

As the Government of the United States of America

is not,

in any sense,

founded

on the

Christian

religion;

I gave you a number of specifically religious (notice I didn't say specifically "Christian" which is what the Tripoli Treaty states)examples of what the country has preached and practiced. ...

It seems to me that you need, somehow, someway, for this country to be "religious". If the treaty states conclusively, by the founding fathers (not by people who came later and want to convert this country into a "christian nation") that this nation is NOT founded on the Christian religion, just what "religion" are you proposing that it was founded on?

[doug yowell]

religion;

[teresaq]

I gave you a number of specifically religious (notice I didn't say specifically "Christian" which is what the Tripoli Treaty states)examples of what the country has preached and practiced.