rawprawn Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Ha, I knew that would get your attention There is nothing new under the sun. But, here's something to think about. Christianity and natural science believe the same thing from different perspectives. Science proves over and over that the universe is governed by laws, is organised, structured and predictable. Then some smart scientist discovered Chaos Theory. They proposed that accidents happen, random events that break the laws known to science. An electron can bounce off into a totally unpredicted path and change a molecule without explanation. Christianity has the same problem. Life is governed by God's law, the laws of creation and is structured. If people choose to live within those laws their life will be better. Then someone introduces Grace, a total spanner in the works of all things fundamental. All of a sudden God goes from one who is to be obeyed, to one willing to forgive even the worst sin. What do you do with that? So what do I see? Two sets of human beings with the same problem; lack of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted December 17, 2011 I rather like the idea of applied theological chaos theory! Consider the butterfly effect of grace/forgiveness... Consider the trajectory of a life after it has been graced with even a small act of kindness. Or the gentle nudge of a forgiving smile to a small child caught in the act. A few random acts of forgiveness could ultimately unleash a hurricane of grace at some distant point in time or space. It could ultimately destroy everything in its path and be the cause of new life in a new earth... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 That makes a way out as all are sinners, so what do we do with God's offer? We investigate it to see what are the terms and what is expected. We know the devils believe and tremble and are not saved so we know there is more to it than that. Yes it is proven in His Word He does forgive the worst sin. Then it is found we are drawn to His Throne of Grace at Jesus feet and we Repent. That is a turn from our sin and resolve to do a new life. Then He tells us we are forgiven and to sin no more. That means two things, He forgives us for all past sin but not sin in the future as the counsel is to sin no more. But He gives us a solution for that, For Full and Total Surrender of all that we are and our will given to do His Will Only and then we have opened the door and invited Him in and He comes and dwells in us by His Spirit. That is the gift of His Divine Nature and now we Have His Power to walk As He Walked and now can be victorious overcomers as He expects us to be if we are to inherit His Heavenly Kingdom. The verse, 1 John 4:4. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I believe that "chaos theory" is actually quite organized, and that there is no such thing as "chaos" in science; but with religion....well...hmmm Maybe I had better just shut-up now!! Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Interesting points Tom. I cannot recall just who said it, but I recall hearing how some philosopher I think it was stated something to the effect that when you skip a stone across the water on a lake, it's ripples are felt on the other side of the world, and it creates some kind of permanent change in the world. I think this is how it may be with "faith." The Bible says every person on earth has been given "THE" measure of faith; but we all know that not everyone exercises it. But we all have the exact same amount of it. And I believe the Bible is pretty clear in saying that it only has to be the size of a mustard seed... How does/might, just one such little act of faith affect the world? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 OA Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 You are always so diplomatic my friend. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have to wonder if the thought - I'm not stubborn I'm just always right - is an "Original Thought"? smile smile Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 Probably not, but always good to be reminded. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yes, I'm sure it will slide. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Going from One who is to be obeyed, to One who is ready to dispense grace; even for the worst of sins could be seen different ways. Are you calling this the "Christian" chaos theory? Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 8, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2012 Things are not as they seem to be... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted January 8, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 8, 2012 Our problem is our definition of grace. We seem to think of grace only as forgiveness and mercy, but grace is also power to live in Christ - grace to help in time of need. Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 8, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2012 To provide help for the need of ourselves or another? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 LD; what you say here is amazing! A book could be written on this! Where did you get this idea from? It makes so much sense! Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted January 9, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2012 It seeped into my thick head from the book I am currently editing, though that particular text in Hebrews just popped into my memory the minute (not from the book) I wrote the post. Tom, I hadn't considered the two options, having always thought selfishly when reading that verse. Must go look at context. LD Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Ill be interested to hear more Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted January 9, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 9, 2012 The context of [Hebrews 4:14-16] makes it clear that it is addressing our personal struggles, and that "grace to help in time of need" is the power that is given to help us meet those struggles. LD Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 9, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 9, 2012 Continue reading. The context is not completed until well into chapter 5. As I understand the passage, it is speaking of our need for mercy and forgiveness of our weaknesses and sin. (The broader context is of the role of the high priest in perfecting forgiveness of sin. The priest didn't empower the people to obey, but provided a way out when they didn't. The point of the passage, as I see it, is that He brings forgiveness/mercy/grace because He understands the need of it.) The teaching of Jesus was that we are to pay it forward - just as we have generously received grace/mercy/forgiveness we are to dispense it generously to others by showing them mercy/grace/forgiveness. And adding a key phrase from Hebrews we should show sympathy for others weaknesses. I especially appreciate the significance of Hebrews 5:2 of the importance of an understanding priest to show compassion or to deal gently with those who are ignorant and those that are going astray. (Notice the present tense.) To bring this back to the original point, this is the all consuming power of love/grace/mercy/forgiveness that the more it is given the more there is to give and more is given back. (See Luke 6:35-38) The ripple effect of one act of mercy carries on indefinitely. The butterfly effect of grace... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobiwan Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Grace is not free standing, nor is it cheap. Grace comes only from a gracious person. The Grace He gives comes at a very large cost to Himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whbae Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 It cost a lot to the giver(God) of the grace, but not the receiver(human). If I bought an expensive car such as Rolls Roy and give to you free then, it cost you nothing. Won Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobiwan Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 at great cost to Him and risk to us God provides grace to all. Not just a car to me, but a whole fleet of cars to each and every one. lifetime unlimited mileage and repairs included with operating cost as well!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertschy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I quite agree to your opinions. thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I agree with Bertschy's opinion of Gibs' opinion. Although I think it is more of a fact than opinion. Also I agree with LynnDel's definition of grace, on page 2. Forgiveness and power. Power not only for yourself, but power to help another. Both. Without power for yourself, you cannot help another. You can't give away something you don't have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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