Neil D Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach GP So, what do you mean by 1]spiritual 2] spiritual formation 3] what precisely is so "anti christian" about this subtle and antagonistic heresy? 1. The light of the Divine/God. 2. Methods used to open yourself to a more personal and deeper understanding and walk with #1 3. This is what I have been asking for like 3 weeks. Other than some of the ideas might be used by non Christian people. But then we also pray, have faith and try to live in the light. 1] are we talking about a message? Are we talking about personal revelation/knowledge? And what does this knowledge /message do for you/us? [obviously, there are collective and personal communications that need to be clarified..] 2]....Um, perhaps I am misinformed...but isn't this how one has communications with the divine? and isn't it GOD's responsiblity to inform YOU that you are not progressing to His liking? I guess what I am getting confused about is where does GOD come in and tell you that you are confusing Him with another person vs where does some human come and tell you that you are confusing Him with another person? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 3] As you know, EC, I am a great believer in two way communication between God and the individual. I do not believe in prayer, read, share concepts that are espoused without LISTENING to what God has to say for today.....As you have said, these concepts are tools that get us closer to God. But again, I would like to understand the concepts that I have asked about....I don't think that I am some dunderhead and un-intelligent ninny who doesn't understand intellectual concepts..Nor am I unable to put together simple concepts to understand what is being talked about.... But if some, as some here are, using nebulous spiritual conccepts without defining them first, you guys will talk past each other and it will result in frustration and lack of communication..... Come on, boys....Let's get this nailed down first.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 GP So, what do you mean by 1]spiritual 2] spiritual formation 3] what precisely is so "anti christian" about this subtle and antagonistic heresy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Those who love this stuff that has come into the SDA church is no different than having Ignatius Loyola standing up front leading you into it. Why go into a practice the illuminatti use or the Catholic church. Jesus Christ only is the Spiritual Leader of His Church and His people. I'd make sure I stayed with Him if I had to leave the whole world I would still be safe In Him. If you can't get it thrown out then get up and go out like He is calling His to do. It has to be one or the other. His Church has no denominational name and is not a corporation or run by men. It is run by Him through and by His Spirit and He sends and ordains those to preach the Truth to the people. Men can not Ordain any but can only recognize if they are of His Spirit any who are truly ordained of Him. They are given a claimed ordination of men only because they went through their schools but not the same school The Apostles went through or any True Man of God. The people need Spiritual Discernment that can only be had by His Idwelling. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Gibs, are you ever going to directly answer the questions asked of you. In plain English. You are going in circles with a holier than thou approach giving grave warnings and repeating the same things over and over, but never actually addressing the issues brought up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 GP So, what do you mean by 1]spiritual 2] spiritual formation 3] what precisely is so "anti christian" about this subtle and antagonistic heresy? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 HB, just so you know - I have read the post and will be giving it as detailed of an answer as I can. However I am on my way out in about 10 minutes so will respond when I get back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 E C, Check this out, and when it comes up click each title then colapse it and do the next one, http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Jesuits_Ignatius_Loyola_spiritual_exercises_mystic 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Quote: I agree with most of this with the following exception...Listening for God's voice inside our head and acting in concert with the Bible....IOWs, if the voice inside your head says that you need to stock pile guns and need to protect yourself by killing men, women, and children, who are against your POV [Point of View], there's a good chance that that voice is NOT from God. However, if it says that you need to bake some bread to take to an out of work church member, chances are that God IS talking to you... I think its a pretty good chance that no matter what religion you follow if that voice in your head says you need to do those things that you maybe should see a proffesional. Come to think of it though there is a very fine line between spiritual communication and insanity. Quote: Most understandable. And Spiritual Formation is so nebulous,...Just what are we talking about here???? If carefully done, I can talk past you with my defination and with your definitions that we could conceivably appear to be in agreement when we our meanings are at odds with each other...And let's face this....religious talk can mean so much and mean absolutely nothing....It is not a precise language.... Spot on!!! IMO that is how the great cult leaders get the job done. They have a knack for doing that very thing, you will think they are confirming every thing you already thought. The Spiritual Formation I believe that is being talked about here - that our friend Gibs has issue with is the whole Read, Meditate, Pray and Discuss practice. Which get very close to certain Shamanistic practices. But then again how many times in the Bible are things like extended fasting and hours of lost sleep and prayer mentioned. Those too are the same type of practices. What I am seeing is a vendetta against the RCC and if anything may have originated with them it is considered to be evil. I find that bigotted and sad. Quote: If I am talking to you about "spiritual concepts", am I talking about one's walk with the divine or am I talking about principles that apply to my life? Or am I talking about the character of Christ and how that affects me in my walk? And this is between Adventists...We haven't talk about rituals that affect non-adventist like the Eucharist or the communion plate that affects protestants and thier walks with Christ....Too much left hanging for interpretation!!!! "Spiritually discerned" indeed!!!!! There is the million dollar question. Here is my take. Again this is my personal take on the matter. You have hit the nail on the head with Spiritual Discernment. I think that each and every person needs to do this with all aspects of their spiritual lives. Whether it is about a personal walk with the Divine, principles applied to ones life, the character of Christ and the effects of that - whatever. One needs to be aware and decide for themselves if they believe what they are learning to be right or wrong. As Adventists you need to do that with every single thing you hear in church, read in EGW's books, the Review, Signs or whatever publications are out there right now. That to me is where the whole Read,Meditate,Pray and Share thing is a real terrific thing. Work it out, don't take anything at face value, question everything until you are sure of it. No matter what your denomination or religious affiliation is. Quote: The thought that comes to my mind is that we have some "Adventist ritual" ie prayer, reading the bible, sharing, that allows us to become supposedly "spiritual", when in actuality it is a lifeless form that EGW warns about. And yet, when I talk to my church memebers or I talk to other church members where my children reside, ie Walla Walla, or Union College Or in foreign lands...they report none of this type of lifeless behavior that Gibbs et al seems to think is out there... I'm sure there isn't!! Lets face it - every religion has a degree of ritual. Ritual is a great thing for getting a group of people into the same sort of head space and preparing for the blessings that are to be discovered. I compare it often to preparing a candlelit dinner with soft music for a romantic evening with your spouse. That could all be skipped and you could just hop between the sheets. But its not going to be as special without all the niceness and effort put out, from a place of love, before hand. I think what is important is not to rely on ritual to have your spiritual needs. They have a time and a place and can enrich the experience. I think that the Divine appreciates and recognizes the effort put forth as well. Quote: Excuse me, but apparently, I also am in the same boat...If you are unfortunate to have been labeled as one who doesn't" see spiritually", well, for what's it's worth, you get my approval...[i know that it's not much of an approval in this instance...:-) ] And I didnt see that "non-Christian" label applied to you...in any post of recent posting....Hmmmmmmm Tell you what...You take this paddle, and I'll take this paddle, and since we are in the same boat, we'll see where this post takes us.....So, which way do you want to paddle...? [virtually speaking] I appreciate the approval I say I am not a Christian, because I view the whole thing way off from what would be considered Christian. But thats a whole nother subject. I will take that paddle sir, and lets just paddle towards a better relationship with the Divine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I say I am not a Christian, because I view the whole thing way off from what would be considered Christian. But thats a whole nother subject. I will take that paddle sir, and lets just paddle towards a better relationship with the Divine. Hmmmmmm..."Paddle toward a better relationshp with the Divine".....I would say that you are well on your way to being God's friend...which would place you into the catagory of being "Christian"... Oh well...and just for the record....Abraham was considered God's friend...and he never got the label of being "Christian" either....(smile) Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Those who love this stuff that has come into the SDA church is no different than having Ignatius Loyola standing up front leading you into it. This post is totally non-sensical...What do you mean by "this stuff"? Do you mean "spiritual formation"? Again, what do you mean? This is the very stuff of stirring fear and bias and ultimately hatred and bigotry. Is this what it means to be a Christian? How about a SDA Christian? Since when does posting this type of post of insinuation, of laying the foundation for lies...when did this spirit come from God? No, Satan is the father of lies...Is this where your loyalty lies at, Gibs? Because if it is, you have no place on this board. You would not belong here...you nor anyone who supports this type of fear and bias and lies....That IS the true about you.... I wish you would stop spreading and insinuating lies....I know that you think that the President of the conference is in your corner. I know you think that you have some important people in your corner as well...Let me assure you, it was politics that got Jesus killed also... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Hamilton, We don't need the new teaching that has come in and yes it is "stuff". Jesus Christ has no need in the least for a spirituality in His Church but His Own and for me that is the only one acceptable to me. I've talked to some here about this in the SDA churches here and most know of it and don't deny it is in them, but don't care, it's OK with them. Then there is some that are just floored by it and tell me they've talked to some and they just don't care and ask why "bitch" about it. Well I'm a sheep but of another pasture than that, my Shepherd is Jesus Christ and Him Only do I take Spirituality from. He alone is my Spiritual Mentor. He dwells in me and I allow only Him to guide me. My part and thing is only to bring it to view that has slipped in so unnoticed and so glossed over it is not seen as a departure. I have no annimosity to any in the Church even though none of them are friendly to me. Most in the church though these days I find are friendly with the world. Yes Hamilton I have fear of where it is taking the church. And just at the time when it needs to be most dedicated and tight knit with Him and His Word and Led Only of His Spirit. A deep heart search and dedication at this time is needed and urgent. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 We are warned that in the end times - the great deception and evil that will be preached is salvation by works. And the prophecies are being fulfilled before our very eyes. We certainly are living in the last days. Come Lord Jesus - Come and take the saved saints home with you. I am ready and longing for you. This old world is getting more and more influenced by Satan. I am ready to be taken Home. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 E C, Check this out, and when it comes up click each title then colapse it and do the next one, http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Jesuits_Ignatius_Loyola_spiritual_exercises_mystic 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Certainly it is true that the SF movement has an unsavory core to it. I am glad that our new Ministry Magazine guys are aware of the problem and do not support it. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Yes BobRyan, I'm also glad that many at the top are awares and I sure hope it can be turned out. It has astounded many of the people but not enough speak up. We are to let our voices and concerns be heard. I do believe as each True one is a Spiritual Member of His Spiritual Body. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 E C, Check this out, and when it comes up click each title then colapse it and do the next one, http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Jesuits_Ignatius_Loyola_spiritual_exercises_mystic 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 E C, Just make sure it is His Way as we know He is the Only Way. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Quote: Yet there is so much time wasted on defining HOW that is done PROPERLY, what is RIGHT and what is WRONG. NOTH!!! And its usually for others, not the definers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Hmm, Jesus Christ is the definer, all the rest are false guides. Not like an old song says, "Down That Wrong Road Again". 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Originally Posted By: Gibs E C, Check this out, and when it comes up click each title then colapse it and do the next one, http://amazingdiscoveries.org/R-Jesuits_Ignatius_Loyola_spiritual_exercises_mystic 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Alright.......... Quote: The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola are a month-long program of meditations, prayers, considerations, and contemplative practices that help Catholic faith become more fully alive in the everyday life of contemporary people. It is set out in a brief manual or handbook: sparse, taciturn, and practical. It presents a formulation of Ignatius' spirituality in a series of prayer exercises, thought experiments, and examinations of consciousness—designed to help a retreatant (usually with the aid of a spiritual director) to experience a deeper conversion into life with God in Christ, to allow our personal stories to be interpreted by being subsumed in a Story of God. These Exercises are usually made in one of three different ways: first, extended over approximately thirty days in a silent retreat away from home, which was its original form; or second, as condensed into a weekend or an eight-day retreat based on Ignatian themes; or third, in the midst of daily life, while living at home, over a period of several months. The Spiritual Exercises are divided into a series of four "weeks"—not literally seven 24-hour-day weeks, but "movements" or “stages”—with accompanying prayer, visualizations, reflections, and spiritual exercises for each week. ... I don't know Gibs, but it sounds much to me like a pretty good plan over all. The rest of the page where it gets into the praising the Saints and self flogging and what not it a bit iffy as far as the SDA church is concerned I agree. But within many man made things there are gems amongst the rust, so pick out the gems and discard the rust. I still am not convinced that there is really anything inherently terrible about any of it. Ok so now we all agree to the "source" -- apparently and we all agree that at the source - there are some bad things embedded into the plan. My guess is that we all agree that the RCC has a lot of good ideas - worthy charities, "good deeds" and that even during the dark ages of persecution the RCC was out their evangelizing non-Christian countries. The problem with SF is its embedded heart of spiritism and spiritualist practices. LighthouseTrails research does a good job of exposing all of this as evil. www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com Here is yet another group doing research on this subject - http://www.spiritual-research-network.com/contemplativespirituality.html SDA Hope Ministry exposing Emergent Church. http://www.3angelstube.com/video/241/The-New-Spirituality-Pt-1 GC88 558.1 558.2 7:44 mm:ss EGW on Pantheism – Kellogg vs EGW. “God in everything” 1 SAT 343.1 Kellogg denied he was a Pantheist – but claimed he was just talking about omnipresence of God 10:24 mm:ss SpTBo6 41 – do not dialogue with Pantheists. Do not “enter into discussion” with them. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Where does all of this go? "John Cassian who lived in the fourth century provided some of the earliest recorded guidelines on the practice of spiritual direction. He introduced mentoring in the monasteries. Each novice was put under the care of an older monk. Benedict of Nursia integrated Cassian's guidelines into what is now known as the Rule of Saint Benedict. The Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola are guidelines for spiritual direction during a retreat. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_direction But ok - just because Ignatius founded the Jesuits does not mean everything he did had to be all bad - right? Back to Still Waters. We have Directors and we have the Spiritual Formation program. http://www.stillwaters.org/formation/formation_groups/ Here is a careful analysis of those programs that starts with a focus on Richard Foster's teachings and then moves on to the subject of Spiritual Directors. http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue112.htm http://www.faithhousemanhattan.org/ Scroll down to the "spiral path" and come to your own conclusions. Wiccan prayer service conducted by pastor Samir http://www.faithhousemanhattan.org/faith...emembrance.html http://www.discernthetime.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=14102 Here we have the Ohio conference seeking help and guidance from Pastor Samir Selmanovic. http://sdapartnersininnovation.org/page/past-conference-presenters in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Now Bob! You have to be open-minded, tolerant, accepting, and progressive. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Here are a couple responses to Ohio Innovation that I found. http://reclaimsda.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8:statement-of-concerns&catid=2:news http://www.sdapartnersinconfusion.org/ Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Now Bob! You have to be open-minded, tolerant, accepting, and progressive. Now while I know you are being rather sarcastic and condesending there, I am going to use your post to make a point I was trying to make earlier. No-one needs to be any of those things as far as their own spirituallity goes. Each is on their own personal path and their journey is their own. If these "Spiritual Formation" ideas don't work for a person, if they rub them the wrong way then they should not use them! I think its wise to actually look for the gold in the rust before dismissing them, but thats just my view. What we have here however is paranoia and fear. Dire warnings and grave condemnation for all.If you step back for a moment and look at it clearly, those doing that are using the very tactics that they are condemning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Here's a little clip from EGW about what we behold. Stay only on the path Jesus has laid, other paths are all down to the pit. "The Unguarded Citadel.--By beholding we become changed. Though formed in the image of his Maker, man can so educate his mind that sin which he once loathed will become pleasant to him. As he ceases to watch and pray, he ceases to guard the citadel, the heart, and engages in sin and crime. The mind is debased, and it is impossible to elevate it from corruption while it is being educated to enslave the moral and intellectual powers and bring them in subjection to grosser passions. Constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained; and we must be aided by the refining influence of the grace of God, which will attract the mind upward and habituate it to meditate upon pure and holy things."--2T 479 (1870). {1MCP 74.2} No one can keep subjecting themselves to these things and not be changed undesirably in the wrong direction. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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