M. T. Cross Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hey Bob, Do your homework. Samir is NOT employed by the GNYC conference. Hasn't been for a while. Doesn't consider himself to be an Adventist pastor. I know him personally. Well please then - give the man a handshake and a high five from me for having the courage to open his mind enough to realize that we are all in this search for spiritual enlightment together - regardless of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 2, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hey Bob, Do your homework. Samir is NOT employed by the GNYC conference. Hasn't been for a while. Doesn't consider himself to be an Adventist pastor. I know him personally. Thanks, Abelisle. Perfect example of what I mean. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hamilton, The fear comes in when we bring in the occult practices into our worship instead of directly with Him. We have no need of some of men's rigamorole to do worship and to get Spiritual enlightenment. I would then be in fear it isn't pleasing in His sight. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abelisle Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Check out his book if you haven't: http://www.amazon.com/Its-Really-All-Abo...9130&sr=1-1 Alex Quote We are our worst enemy - sad but true. http://abelisle.blogspot.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 2, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 2, 2012 Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach Just what is the problem here, Gibbs? I seems to me that there are some people who are simply repeating what they have read in books or videos attacking SF. I watched a sermon by an SDA "speaker" attacking SF. Much of his information was inaccurate and out of context. Of course there are errors and dangerous practitioners of SF but this hysteria that has been generated as a result of fear and ignorance. . . . And for me this is the crux of the problem. Apparently in some folks minds, sloppy scholarship/research, inaccuracy, misrepresentation, etc. are not bad. It sort of sounds like they think the end justifies the means, a sort of situational ethics. But at the foundation of the hysteria against SF, I sense a high level of fear driven ignorance. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted January 2, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 2, 2012 I seems to me that there are some people who are simply repeating what they have read in books or videos attacking SF. I watched a sermon by an SDA "speaker" attacking SF. Much of his information was inaccurate and out of context. Of course there are errors and dangerous practitioners of SF but this hysteria that has been generated as a result of fear and ignorance. Foster's book, Celebration of Discipline is one of the best books I have read on spirituality. Every Adventist would be blessed as a result of reading it. Most of those who have negative views about it have never even read the first page. Our conference has started having spiritual retreats for the Pastors. I haven't been able to attend but everyone who has spoken about it has had a powerful experience. These are strong, spiritually grounded Adventists and are not unaware of the dangers of eastern mysticism. When I approached our Conference about The Omega Rebellion, 2 staff members read it (or gave it a good shot) and, too, complained the same about the accusations, they be familiar with what Foster has written. The complaint was that the writing was taken out of context and twisted. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I seems to me that there are some people who are simply repeating what they have read in books or videos attacking SF. I watched a sermon by an SDA "speaker" attacking SF. Much of his information was inaccurate and out of context. Of course there are errors and dangerous practitioners of SF but this hysteria that has been generated as a result of fear and ignorance. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 When I approached our Conference about The Omega Rebellion, 2 staff members read it (or gave it a good shot) and, too, complained the same about the accusations, they be familiar with what Foster has written. The complaint was that the writing was taken out of context and twisted. Gail, What is "The Omega Rebellion"? Is that a book or something that is actually happening within our church? I'm assuming that it's a book, and to attempt to clarify your post, [i am mirroring it], the people within the conference office [among those that you had asked about the book] said that the writings of Foster was taking out of context? Would that be a fair reflection of what you posted? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 abelisle, That is just the point you brought out, Samir is not a SDA so what the dickens is he doing preaching to our leaders. Kick him outa here. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Tom, Hamilton, and all who are hot to defend it, I know some of you will defend it to the death. The faithful in the Catholic church will defend the theology of it too to the death and it's king, the Pope. The same with the LDS and all of them, they are loyal to a structure of men, organized of men and not to Jesus Christ. They make the church their organization when His Church is His Organization and He Alone is able to keep it so the gates of hell don't prevail against it. What it all amounts to is a following of others than Jesus Christ who Alone is the Head of His Church. He By His Spirit is well able to Spiritualize His own without Ignatius Loyola's spiritual exercises and formation and emerging church plus more. He is a Jealous Bridgroom so I would be doggone careful who I gave even a tick of a tittle of heed to but Him. No not even a tick of a tittle would I give. Christ in You and You are in the All in All. That is the take up any and All Must Have, His Divine Nature installed. I say and will continue to admonish, give it the boot! 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Tom, Hamilton, and all who are hot to defend it, I say and will continue to admonish, give it the boot! "give it the boot!" Sure, but what is "it"? You see, Gibbs, you just ain't cutting it as a communicator. You don't know what "it" is...You keep admonishing the fear factor, that something is wrong...that something is creeping into the church and that something is destroying our people... ....but... ....you can not define "it"...You can not describe 'it'...So we are left with our weapons in our hands, looking this way and that for an enemy that you says exists...and we can't find.... You like this attention that you are getting...you keep telling everyone that there is something wrong...but you can not describe what the problem is... this is really pathetic..... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Quote: When I approached our Conference about The Omega Rebellion, 2 staff members read it (or gave it a good shot) and, too, complained the same about the accusations, they be familiar with what Foster has written. The complaint was that the writing was taken out of context and twisted. Exactly Gail. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hey Bob, Do your homework. Samir is NOT employed by the GNYC conference. Hasn't been for a while. Doesn't consider himself to be an Adventist pastor. I know him personally. Glad to hear of the change - at least he is more consistent now with what he is actually doing. However at the time that he did the wiccan services and when he did the Ohio Conference session - he was claiming to be SDA. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Normally I would not arguing in favour of Wicca, I consider the religion to be the Pagan version of the Catholic church. A lot of pomp and fluff, not much substance. But the tone of your post and the links you provided was dripping in self satisfied self rightousness. Quote: Just in time for Halloween, cutting-edge emergent leader Samir Selmanovic breaks new ground by drawing the Wiccans close to his breast. He runs a place called Faith House Manhattan where the world religions meet together in microcosm and draw from each others spirituality. Here's his tweet from October 12 where he announces his wonderful guests, the Wiccans. HE was not inviting them to preach at an Adventist pulpit. He was asking them to be a part a meeting where people open their minds and try to learn from each other. You know, move past the Dark Ages where Christians and Pagans live in fear and hatred of each other. The kind of thing Jesus promoted in his life time, and that Pagans for the most promote most the time. I can understand you not wanting a Wiccan leader at an SDA pulpit. I doubt that one would want to be there as "preaching" is not really their thing. But as that quote very clearly states - that is not what he was doing. "Faith House" is the name of the group that Samir started in 2009 when he came to the NY Conf. Served there as an SDA pastor. Not sure when he stopped being an SDA pastor. All I find out there is that he is an SDA pastor - maybe Alex can shed some light on that - Even Spectrum calls him an SDA - and even an SDA pastor -- in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Glad to hear of the change - at least he is more consistent now with what he is actually doing. However at the time that he did the wiccan services and when he did the Ohio Conference session - he was claiming to be SDA. you make it sound like he's an apostate SDA....What do you think he is doing now that is NOT consistant with being an SDA? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hamilton, What is it, define it, tell you what it is and etc. Holy smoke man it is worse than the "creeping compromise" that Joe Crews a real SDA pator wrote a book of that title and you ask such a question. I think Doug Batchelor took over the ministry after Joe died and Doug is no Joe Crews I tell you straight out. I would say there is no words that would tell you as you have shut it out. In short it's the spiritual exercises etc. of Ignatius Loyola and emerging church, becoming one with the fallen worldly churches. On top of that is what we older ones knew as "the new theology" of salvation. It was actually in quite a few years before we began to fight it. There was a great coming out of the SDA church at that time over that alone. The True way of salvation is "legalism" to the people today for the greatest part. I find some here that got it right, but not very many. There should be a great coming out again unless you all get together and help Ted boot it out. He needs each and everyone in the church that will awaken to help him and stand behind him. Today you do not see much difference in the theology of the SDA church than all the rest and that has happened in the last 60 years for the most part. A breaking away actually began shortly after 1888. EGW tried to stop it and couldn't. It's a long story hard for most to catch and especially if they don't want to. I feel like a lone voice crying out in the wilderness of error of these last days and well I may be, but I must speak the truth as I am driven by Him. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Oh my. I pray to God that we are not so exclusive that we can only hear from those that teach as we do about the Bible, the SOP and the Great Controversy. Oh Pllleeeze I have to agree Woody, have heard many great sermons by non adventist speakers, not sure though if ever in an adventist church. I don't think I'd have a problem, unless they tried telling me to worship on Sunday, etc. Other than that they love Jesus just as well if not more than most. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 2, 2012 Members Share Posted January 2, 2012 Religion happens for 1 of 3 reasons. a) a crutch power c) a true seeking of enlightenment. People seeking b use fear as much as they can. It is an amazing tool in getting people to believe what you want them to believe. Anything that leads people to deeper understanding is a threat to that power. So the best thing to do is stir up fear and hysteria. Unfortunately I agree with your 3 points. But to me this is not true Christianity per Jesus Christ. According to the Bible we should "fear" God, but not the way most think. Sure there are times and places in the Bible where fear is the fear you mention, but the "fear" that true Christians have is a respect "fear." Not a fear where we shake and hide in a corner. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hamilton, What is it, define it, tell you what it is and etc. Holy smoke man it is worse than the "creeping compromise" that Joe Crews a real SDA pator wrote a book of that title and you ask such a question. I think Doug Batchelor took over the ministry after Joe died and Doug is no Joe Crews I tell you straight out. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 3, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 3, 2012 Tom, Hamilton, and all who are hot to defend it, I know some of you will defend it to the death. The faithful in the Catholic church will defend the theology of it too to the death and it's king, the Pope. The same with the LDS and all of them, they are loyal to a structure of men, organized of men and not to Jesus Christ. ... You see, that just illustrates the error of your thinking on this topic. You assume things not even remotely true, exaggerate, and play a guilt by false association. This game of connect the random dots is a conspiracy theory favorite. First off, the fervor you may feel in opposition does not mean we are defending it with the same dogmatism and zealotry. I don't think anyone here is defending SF to the death. That you say that you "know" we will is beyond your reach to possibly know. It is merely your assumption that says more about you than us. (I have to wonder about your motives, if you assume we would be so motivated.) Most of us are not here to defend SF so much as defending truth telling. Truth is important. When you clearly misrepresent the truth of what you oppose how is anyone to believe whether you tell the truth about that which you teach and promote. It is a matter of credibility. Without a shred of valid proof or definition you tar the phrase "spiritual formation" with a guilt by association connection to catholicism, the papacy, the LDS, emerging church, or the evil de jour. That any false religion or teaching uses the same terminology is hardly proof that those who use the same or similar terminology are following after them or teaching what they teach. That is just superficial thinking. We share a common language of faith. How we express it, define it and practice it is diverse. Get some facts, truthfulness and accurate details on your side, and maybe we can take what you say seriously. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Tom, What is coming back at me is solid defense of it and no acknowledgement these things coming in much from the defenders. Those who acknowledge it should not be defending it. I am glad you see it, but do you see it as something that should not be is the question. I am not a liberal and no one can be in my opinion and be on the path with Jesus Christ. Neither am I a legalist as some accuse me of. And I did not say ALL would defend it to the death but "some". And some have come back at me pretty hot. And all I am doing is pointing this intrusion out. The truth and the facts are on line and you can easily get it as I know most of you are more cyber expert than I and I have read right here on the internet of Ted Wilson's message and plea about it. There is many many reads here on the net that all who know how to do search and read it and what the supporters are saying and the ones who see it for what it is. I am saying all that see it as no good should be on the side of Ted Wilson and supporting him instead of letting him be beaten down on something that is needed that he have the victory. If it can't be halted then there just may be another great coming out as there was quite a few years ago. We cannot widen that path that Jesus Christ has laid. The extra baggage will not go through. His path is narrow but not hard but it is the one to victory over this world, sining and the devils. We are to walk as He, Jesus walked. EGW and many like this one, "Christ had bound them to the throne of God. It is His purpose that the highest influence in the universe, emanating from the Source of all power, shall be theirs. They are to have power to resist evil, power that neither earth, nor death, nor hell can master, power that will enable them to overcome as Christ overcame." --Gospel Workers, p. 39. {ChS 235.2} Christ in you is the mystery or secret as Paul stated. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Normally I would not arguing in favour of Wicca, I consider the religion to be the Pagan version of the Catholic church. A lot of pomp and fluff, not much substance. But the tone of your post and the links you provided was dripping in self satisfied self rightousness. Quote: Just in time for Halloween, cutting-edge emergent leader Samir Selmanovic breaks new ground by drawing the Wiccans close to his breast. He runs a place called Faith House Manhattan where the world religions meet together in microcosm and draw from each others spirituality. Here's his tweet from October 12 where he announces his wonderful guests, the Wiccans. HE was not inviting them to preach at an Adventist pulpit. He was asking them to be a part a meeting where people open their minds and try to learn from each other. You know, move past the Dark Ages where Christians and Pagans live in fear and hatred of each other. The kind of thing Jesus promoted in his life time, and that Pagans for the most promote most the time. I can understand you not wanting a Wiccan leader at an SDA pulpit. I doubt that one would want to be there as "preaching" is not really their thing. But as that quote very clearly states - that is not what he was doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yes EC. Good point. If he was trying to change doctrines within the SDA church that would be different. But he is trying to bring people together - a worthy goal. And for a side bar - I have noticed that many SDA preachers try to DIVIDE people rather than unite - by the promotion of this New Theoloty thingy of legalism. WHich is worse? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Here is how Samir's Fath House promotes it's Wiccan service - Quote: This Fall we will be exploring how to cross boundaries into new spaces and meet "the other." In the US, Wiccans have been an example of a "minority" religion, often met with misunderstanding and at times with hostility. We want to learn about and from them and are welcoming them to Faith House! The Temple of the Spiral Path will lead us in a celebration the of Samhain (pronounced Sow-en, from the Irish for “Summer’s end”) a sacred time of remembrance and harvest, one of the Eight Holidays known to modern Neo-Pagan witches as the Wheel of the Year. At Samhain, we gather the last fruits of the growing season and pause to reflect on all we have reaped during the light half of the year. The veil between the worlds is said to be thinnest at this time and so we take comfort in the closeness of the spirits of Nature, our Gods and Goddesses, and especially our Ancestors as we face the changing season and shorter days. The Temple of the Spiral Path (www.templeofthespiralpath.org) represents the family of covens practicing the Shadowfolk Tradition of Witchcraft, which was founded in 1995, and includes Strangers’ Gate, Shadowfolk, and North Wyldewood Covens. For fifteen years we have produced a series of open and public Wheel of the Year rituals, as well as study groups and workshops exploring many aspects of Wicca. A special focus on the bardic arts and Celtic and Norse contributions to modern Witchcraft inform our work; however, we are not limited by these influences and anchor our tradition within the rich tapestry of the Western Mystery Tradition. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Woody, Would you care to explain what you find the "new theology" to be. Then tell me what you find to be EGW's view of salvation theology or better her view. Or is the truth of salvation is a theology but just a truth. Theology you know is theory. I don't want theory do you? The new theology isn't new to the church any more. It was somewhat new in the 1950's but was prevelant by many mostly out of SDAdventism at that time. I just note as one over 80 years there has been a radical change in the teaching of salvation in SDAdventism since I was a pup. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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