Members phkrause Posted January 6, 2013 Members Share Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted By: Stan if we are going to err, we should err on the side of compassion - EGW Mother Teresa used to say something similar to her sisters. "It would be better for you to make mistakes with kindness, than to work miracles with unkindess." AJ Amen to that aldona Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 No, Gail, you would not be wrong...I am the one and only Iron Deacon. Have mellowed quite a bit, and mostly lurk... Blessings Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Ah, Doug, 'tis folly to try that line of reasoning with me. I think if dig through the older 2002-2004 archives here, you just might find I am likely far more "hard-core" on this issue of the defenseless unborn than I am on the runaway US Government expenditures. The principles the Bible eschews in our duty to protect the most disadvantaged among us is without dispute. That said, 95% of the abortions occurring in the US occur not due to rape, incest, or the rare Fallopian pregnancy, where the mother's life is endangered, but rather they occur as a belated means of birth control. The number occurring due to "compassionate" cause is dwarfed by the outright declared right to commit murder in the name of sexual choice. Good enough? Anything more needs a separate thread... Blessings Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Good enough? Anything more needs a separate thread... Blessings Good enough for me but not those whose tunnel vision can only see compassion and moral responsibility through the prism of the government's welfare system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Oplinger Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 And that is the precise crux of my question: why must everything be viewed only through such a narrow prism of perspective? Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Why is it, if you have compassion for people, and do things to help them, the 'Religious Right' call you a socialist or a communist? Just sayin' Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 [Ah, yes...charities. Where do charities recives their monies, donations from the public. Private charities could not begin to recieve enough monies to address all the needs with out government programs. I see so "yes I would like to help others - but I need someone to hold a gun to everyone else's head while I do it - to make sure they are giving as much as I do". hmm - that is a novel form of "caring for others" - to insist that a gun be held to everyone else's head. Do all liberals suppose that such is the ultimate form of caring? What about a bit more gun control among our liberal friends when it comes to freely helping others? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 http://religiousliberty.tv/opinion-social-justice-popular-piety-or-modern-mania.html Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Do you people have any idea of the cost of what is being proposed? We, as a nation, are already borrowing from our children's, children's, children's, children. If a private citizen was as far in debt as our government is they would be forced into receivership immediately, and most likely thrown in prison for fraud. Our advertised national debt, at close to $17 trillion, is only a fraction of what we owe. Our real debt, including money spent, or promised to be spent in the future, that Congress has not actually funded through legislation is more like $120 trillion, or it was about 3 years ago and it's grown since then. This part of our debt not included in our advertised debt is called unfunded liabilities and politicians never speak about it. They know they would scare the pants off the entire society if they did. How much is $1 trillion? Here's a link to give you a visual perspective. http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html Now consider that we really owe 120 times that amount. Let's say you were really rich and decided to pay off the $120 trillion in debt we have at $50,000,000 a year. Sounds like a big payment, right? It would only take you 2.4 million years to pay it off, and that's with no interest accruing on the debt during the time you pay it off. Are you beginning to understand the size of the problem we are facing yet? And you call anyone who says we can't afford more debt unchristian, selfish, unreasonable, bigoted, politically motivated, etc...? You do that while stealing from your children, grand children, great grandchildren, great great grandchildren and so on by spending money they will have to pay back. We have created a monster that it will take many generations to pay off, and they will not receive one bit of good from from all the taxes they will pay to pay of our debt. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted March 23, 2013 Administrators Share Posted March 23, 2013 Excellent article Olger Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Gerry, this kind of "moral" thinking did not become popular until the 70's and 80's. Can it's origins be identified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Social justice is one of the four pillars of the Green Party movement. Nowadays almost everybody is trying to outgreen each other and one of their biggest buckets of paint is, you guessed it… Social Justice. In the days of Jesus they had white-washers (Matthew 23). Today we have green-washers (Romans 1:25). Where did it come from? The short answer is Catholicism. The long answer is Jesuit scholar Luigi Taparelli D’Azeglio (ca 1827 AD). Because of this religio-political origin, Social Justice often finds itself in unusual blends of religion and politics. Jeremiah Wright himself enthusiastically damned America for our lack of Social Justice in his yet-another-Liberation-Theology-sermon-that-our-current-President-didn’t-hear. But we heard him. And we didn’t appreciate it. Jim Wallis is a big proponent of social justice, but he didn't originate anything - he hitched a ride on the RCC wagon. `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted March 24, 2013 Author Share Posted March 24, 2013 And Vegetarianism is wrong because yoga people and wiccas promote it. Jesus fought for social justice, I stand with him. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted March 24, 2013 Administrators Share Posted March 24, 2013 Social justice is one of the four pillars of the Green Party movement. Nowadays almost everybody is trying to outgreen each other and one of their biggest buckets of paint is, you guessed it… Social Justice. In the days of Jesus they had white-washers (Matthew 23). Today we have green-washers (Romans 1:25). Where did it come from? The short answer is Catholicism... Following that logic, if it originates from Catholicism it must be bad. So, since the Catholic Church took the early lead and remains a primary force in the anti-abortion movement, you then should be in favor of abortion, right? And a major part of their social justice program is the feeding of the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the widows and orphans... Sound familiar? It should if you have read the Bible. But since the RCC is in favor of it, I guess we should kick all of those poor unfortunates to the curb. Is that what you are really trying to promote? Being against social justice seems a rather odd crusade for a Christian, IMHO. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Welfare in the Seventh-day Adventist Church today is generally spelled ADRA and at least in some areas our former Dorcas societies have been turned over to ADRA. I have seen that in many areas ADRA receives most of their financial support from governments, probably just like the Catholic CARE programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 There are boarder crossings, not only from Canada to the United States. A number of Americans have in the past traveled to Europe to have their dental work done for much less than at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Thanks. My post of 620120 was in response to a question from Doug Yowell, not an indictment of something dear to you gentlemen. The statement "Jesus fought for social justice" needs some critical reflection to make sure we are speaking the same language. Did Jesus advocate the elevation of state power through heavy taxation to create "justice" in society or did He dispense spiritual blessings as a forerunner of the Apostolic church's willingness to meet the needs of the brethren? Acts 2:43-47 refers to believers (v. 44) in harmony with Galatians 6:10's "household of faith." Blessings all, g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 25, 2013 Members Share Posted March 25, 2013 From my perspective "Social Justice" was started by God/Jesus Christ our Creator, in the OT when he setup the Jubilee System for the Israelites. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 The Jubilee year was intended to illustrate to the Hebrews the grace of God, and look forward to the New Earth as the ultimate antitype of geographic Canaan. Just as the Passover was limited to the children of Israel in Exodus 11, the Jubilee was extended only to Israelites, and to those who joined themselves to Israel by circumcision. This exclusivity establishes a principle that is carried forward into the New Testament in the custom of ministering to the needs of the "Household of faith." Furthermore, the distribution of food to brothers in the Apostolic church was withheld from the lazy poor (see Apostle Paul's command that people who wouldn't work should lose their daily sustenance). In summary, food was shared among productive church members only. This is why attempting to equate univocal New Testament truth to contemporary political justice is a grave error. They are not interchangeable apart from the two conditions that underlie Biblical charity. Secondly, the Jubilee anticipated the eschatological gathering of the children of God onto the Earth made new. Human attempts to auto-develop a utopian kingdom on earth, however well-intended, counterfeit of the kingdom of God. True Christians never come up with utopian visions. All things will come to pass in Gods time. The Sabbath itself is an antidote to Utopianism. We rest in Gods plan, and wait for return of the Good Shepherd and the perfection of God's judgement on That Day. This is not to say that we individually should not be merciful to the poor. We should. But nowhere does the New Testament invest the church with the political imperative of collective modern social justice. In fact, to do so creates an image to the beast through an acceleration of state power and the coercion of the human conscience. `oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 26, 2013 Members Share Posted March 26, 2013 The Jubilee year was intended to illustrate to the Hebrews the grace of God, and look forward to the New Earth as the ultimate antitype of geographic Canaan. Just as the Passover was limited to the children of Israel in Exodus 11, the Jubilee was extended only to Israelites, and to those who joined themselves to Israel by circumcision. The Hebrew Nation was to be an example to the people that lived all around them, to show others how to live with each other. But obviously they were a failure in that and all or most other reguards(sp). Originally Posted By: olger This exclusivity establishes a principle that is carried forward into the New Testament in the custom of ministering to the needs of the "Household of faith." Furthermore, the distribution of food to brothers in the Apostolic church was withheld from the lazy poor (see Apostle Paul's command that people who wouldn't work should lose their daily sustenance). In summary, food was shared among productive church members only. And no one is disputing that. Originally Posted By: olger This is why attempting to equate univocal New Testament truth to contemporary political justice is a grave error. They are not interchangeable apart from the two conditions that underlie Biblical charity. Again no one is saying that. Originally Posted By: olger Secondly, the Jubilee anticipated the eschatological gathering of the children of God onto the Earth made new. Human attempts to auto-develop a utopian kingdom on earth, however well-intended, counterfeit of the kingdom of God. True Christians never come up with utopian visions. All things will come to pass in Gods time. The Sabbath itself is an antidote to Utopianism. We rest in Gods plan, and wait for return of the Good Shepherd and the perfection of God's judgement on That Day. Not sure I agree totally with this statement, otherwise why would God even set it up. Originally Posted By: olger This is not to say that we individually should not be merciful to the poor. We should. But nowhere does the New Testament invest the church with the political imperative of collective modern social justice. In fact, to do so creates an image to the beast through an acceleration of state power and the coercion of the human conscience.`oG I agree that we as individuals should be merciful to not just the poor but to all. Besides, I'd be very interested in DBs opinion of this issue. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 But nowhere does the New Testament invest the church with the political imperative of collective modern social justice. In fact, to do so creates an image to the beast through an acceleration of state power and the coercion of the human conscience. So ADRA is unscriptural, to the extent that it is 'creating an image to the beast'? Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 olger, You make good points. This idea that it is Christian to take money from someone else's pocket to do good is not Biblical. Nor, is it Christian to enforce the taking money from person A to give to person B at the point of a gun, which is what taxation is. Charity is to come from the heart or it is worthless. The lesson of the widow's two mites ought to drive this lesson home to every Christian. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 olger, You make good points. This idea that it is Christian to take money from someone else's pocket to do good is not Biblical. Nor, is it Christian to enforce the taking money from person A to give to person B at the point of a gun, which is what taxation is. Charity is to come from the heart or it is worthless. The lesson of the widow's two mites ought to drive this lesson home to every Christian. This brother gets it. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 olger, You make good points. This idea that it is Christian to take money from someone else's pocket to do good is not Biblical. Nor, is it Christian to enforce the taking money from person A to give to person B at the point of a gun, which is what taxation is. Charity is to come from the heart or it is worthless. I think we can all agree that taxation is not Christian,period. It is, however, a necessary part of a secular civil government. And charity that does not come from the heart is not worthless to the one receiving it. It may have no intrinsic moral value but it is nevertheless not worthless but rather helpful in creating a kinder more cohesive society. Therefore it is not unChristian to pay or collect taxes. The problems arise when we try to create a moral Christian mandate out of a redistribution welfare system that has so many undeserving and wasteful tenticles. There are few (but some)among conservatives that believe that the real needy should be left out on their own. But a welfare system that rewards irresponsible behavior just because it ends up in poverty is just as heartless as one that refuses to help anyone for any reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 "But a welfare system that rewards irresponsible behavior just because it ends up in poverty is just as heartless as one that refuses to help anyone for any reason." Succinctly put. `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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