1844

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

The Bible also "inflated" things by saying "all the world wondered after the Beast", but we know all the world will not wonder after the Beast. Generally speaking, this conviction of Christ coming in the 1840s was a global event. No need to get technical.

How do you know that the whole world will not wonder after the beast?

Please cite Scripture to support your statement. Book, chapter and verse(s) please.

Secondly, "generally speaking, this conviction of Christ coming in the 1840's was a global event".

Again, please show your evidence that such was the case in:

1. China, Korea, Japan.

2. India, Pakistan, Iran.

3. Oceanic Pacific areas.

4. Southeast Asia.

5. Africa.

6. Middle East.

7. Russia.

8. Eastern Europe.

9. South America.

10. Central America.

This is most of the world and you know very well these places knew absolutely nothing of this "1844-Second Coming phenomenon" you are trying to sell to us on this thread.

Can you show news reports from the ten list above that these people were in a turmoil about this "major phenomenon" you are talking about?

Of course you cannot because they are nonexistent. Of course not because the events you speak of never ever were even known in those parts of the world.

Admit it, you are talking only about parts of the US and some very small localities in only small parts of Western Europe.

No World Turmoil which is the false picture you are trying to create.

I can't name all the specifics, but some that we know of was the different Western Cultures, including the children with the "preaching disease" There was Joseph Wolf, and Joseph Wolf mentioned that the Danite Jews were looking for the Messiah to come at this time, a Moslem group living in the same area expecting Jesus to come at that time, as well as a second Moslem group he came across. Also there were priests across indo china preaching the 1844 message as well, now while I assume these were Christians, all I read was that there were priests. We learn of more groups here and there as we learn more about different cultures. It was a movement that crossed the different great religions bringing about a less focus on their superstitions and more of a simple reaching out to their understanding of god to save them and being kinder people. I believe that it was Dr. J Dukahn pointed out differnt 1844 movements in different pockets of Judaism where ever Jews were centralized.

[BibleOnly]

How do you know that the whole world will not wonder after the beast?

The whole world DOES follow after the beast. The beast is secular humanism. The beast is Buddhism. The beast is the Catholic Church. The beast is Islam. The beast is the Seventh Day Adventists. The beast is any idea, religious or otherwise, that becomes a replacement for the Gospel. The mark on our heads and hands is our thoughts and actions. These conform to God, or they don't, which means they conform to this world.

The beast is now. Everything else is comic books.

[Kevin H]

It's late and I'm tired, I've written on this before, and the critics have tended to ignore my posts, or just insult and not give any look at the evidence or try to refute the evidence. They seem happy to set up their own straw men to knock down and have an attitude of "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts." Now once, in the late 1990s there was one lady who was a strong opponent of 1844 who eventually after much proding and many arguments and excuses over a few years, finally read my posts. She said that it does not match her understanding of 1844 and thus would not accept my information as the 1844 doctrine, but said that if I was indeed right that she would like that version of 1844 and liked what I had to say. All the rest of the critics have been too lazy and so interested in their straw men that they refused to discuss the information and at best only give excuses as to why they refuse to read my information.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: miz3

How do you know that the whole world will not wonder after the beast?

The whole world DOES follow after the beast. The beast is secular humanism. The beast is Buddhism. The beast is the Catholic Church. The beast is Islam. The beast is the Seventh Day Adventists. The beast is any idea, religious or otherwise, that becomes a replacement for the Gospel. The mark on our heads and hands is our thoughts and actions. These conform to God, or they don't, which means they conform to this world.

The beast is now. Everything else is comic books.

You are on the right track, and this indeed plays a role in the 1844 message

[BibleOnly]

I don't believe the beast started in the 19th century, I believe the beast was always with us. Are you saying it started in 1844 ?

[Kevin H]

I don't believe the beast started in the 19th century, I believe the beast was always with us. Are you saying it started in 1844 ?

Indeed NO!!! The Beast (as you were pointing out) is ANYTHING (Usually groups) that we allow to replace Christ in our life. The 7 heads are the 7 periods of world empire ruling over God's people in place of Chirst: Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (which is where Papal supremicy played a role) the deadly wound (no great world empire) and the deadly wound healing as the world unites by economic cooperation and the superrich controls the ability to buy and sell of all people through out the whole world.

Part of the events of 1844 is what lays a path to see this instead of falling into either Preterism with their lack of faith, or Dispensationalism, which is active in working with this system and the woman ends up riding the beast.

However the 7 heads are just that, the 7 heads. The Papacy is NOT the WHOLE beast but part of the 5th head. The whole beast is as you pointed out any organization we join that we allow to replace Christ in our life.

[BibleOnly]

OK, well, I am withdrawing from discussing stuff here any more in general, because it seems like it's mostly a rehash of the same things, but, I agree with you 100% on all of this, and am very interested to hear more. Is this the general SDA view, are you SDA ?

[Kevin H]

OK, well, I am withdrawing from discussing stuff here any more in general, because it seems like it's mostly a rehash of the same things, but, I agree with you 100% on all of this, and am very interested to hear more. Is this the general SDA view, are you SDA ?

Not necessarly the traditions which is a rehash of the understanding of the church in the 1930s, and sees us as needing to settle where the pioneers fell, but for those who use the pioneers as a shoulder that we can stand on andhave continued to build on the understanding as we learn more about the Bible and archaeology, ideas presented in like George MacCreaty Price "The Time of the End" and Adventist Theologians and Adventist Archaeologists.

[Kevin H]

Please don't leave yet, there are things that I need to share, but hard to do with working 2 jobs and working on things to share in church and learning the magic tricks that I would use in church and with my patients and hopefully move on to community education.

But 1844 is a very much misunderstood doctrine but some things that my understanding of it is based on:

1. My understanding of hell fire and HOW God destroys the wicked

2. Ancient cyclic thought processes

3. The 3 lies of Satan about God

4. How the earth was not ready for the Investigative Judgment until the mid 1800s and how it is related to archaeology and the re-discovery of the ancient world so that we can study the Bible as never before.

5. What the 2300 cycles meant in Daniel 8:14, what it meant in Daniel 9 and Ezekiel 38-39 and from this what it meant to the Advent movement of the 1800s and incase God will have a message for us as we face the last 2300 days of earth's history we will learn it from what it meant to those time periods.

The investigative judgment is a joyful doctrin that can benifit both Adventists and non-Adventists

[miz3]

I can't name all the specifics, but some that we know of was the different Western Cultures, including the children with the "preaching disease" There was Joseph Wolf, and Joseph Wolf mentioned that the Danite Jews were looking for the Messiah to come at this time, a Moslem group living in the same area expecting Jesus to come at that time, as well as a second Moslem group he came across. Also there were priests across indo china preaching the 1844 message as well, now while I assume these were Christians, all I read was that there were priests. We learn of more groups here and there as we learn more about different cultures. It was a movement that crossed the different great religions bringing about a less focus on their superstitions and more of a simple reaching out to their understanding of god to save them and being kinder people. I believe that it was Dr. J Dukahn pointed out differnt 1844 movements in different pockets of Judaism where ever Jews were centralized.

Just undocumented hearsay and fantasy.

[Lysimachus]

It can wear you out Kevin H, don't it? I dream for the day when people will actually come into a forum like this hungry and starving for truth. There is nothing like watching a new-born baby spring to life with joy when the Three Angel's Messages finally takes root in their soul and they see it for the first time. It's like watching an isolated Tribe meet white people for the first time in their life....the expressions on their faces.

We're living in the age of snobbish criticism more than ever before. A time when people pick things and dissect them to pieces, and analyze every single fragment to death, and question every single particle with deathly tunnel vision. They refuse to look at the big picture of the great controversy between Christ and Satan, and rob God of His infinite Sacrifice for humanity and vast import and magnitude of His High Priestly ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

[Gerr]

Here's 1844 in a nutshell.This is based on Dan 8 & 9.

In Dan 8, Daniel was given a vision beginning with a ram with two horns that was subdued by a goat with one prominent horn that was broken & replaced by 4 horns. Then another horn that starts out small but becomes exceedingly great arises. It is persecuting power that takes away the "daily" and the "sanctuary," & throws truth to the ground. Daniel asks the question, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” Dan 8:13 ESV. And the reply - KJV 1900 | ‎Da 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. ESV | ‎Da 8:14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”

This is what Daniel has to say about the vision of Dan 8: ESV | ‎Da 8:27 "And I, Daniel, was overcome and lay sick for some days. Then I rose and went about the king’s business, but I was appalled by the vision and did not understand it." The vision of the ram, the goat, and the horns were interpreted except for the little horn that became "exceedingly great." So the 2300 days/years and the persecuting little horn have to be the part that he did not understand. This is explained in Dan 9. Daniel is told that the 2300 days/yrs that it begins with the issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. This has been a firmly fixed date by many scholars to be 457 BC. Simple calculation tells us that subtracting 457 from 2300 gives us 1844, since there was no year 0. You study the prophecy yourself. There is no escaping 1844.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

I don't believe the beast started in the 19th century, I believe the beast was always with us. Are you saying it started in 1844 ?

Indeed NO!!! The Beast (as you were pointing out) is ANYTHING (Usually groups) that we allow to replace Christ in our life. The 7 heads are the 7 periods of world empire ruling over God's people in place of Chirst: Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire (which is where Papal supremicy played a role) the deadly wound (no great world empire) and the deadly wound healing as the world unites by economic cooperation and the superrich controls the ability to buy and sell of all people through out the whole world.

Part of the events of 1844 is what lays a path to see this instead of falling into either Preterism with their lack of faith, or Dispensationalism, which is active in working with this system and the woman ends up riding the beast.

However the 7 heads are just that, the 7 heads. The Papacy is NOT the WHOLE beast but part of the 5th head. The whole beast is as you pointed out any organization we join that we allow to replace Christ in our life.

I do think Kevin differs here from the mainstream Adventist view of the Beast. I've never heard that the Beast represents "anything that we allow to replace Christ in our lives". No disrespect Kevin, but that sounds a little bit on the "Idealistic" side, not Historicist.

The first thing we should focus on is not the Beast of Revelation, but the Little Horn of Daniel 7. The Little Horn of Daniel 7 grew out of the 4th Beast (Pagan Rome), and we believe the Little Horn of Daniel 7 is realized in the Papal System, of which the "time, times, dividing of times" (1260 days) = 1260 years finds its fulfillment in the long stretch of centuries in the Dark Ages, from the 6th to the 18th century.

The Beast of Revelation 13, however, is simply an "expansion", or "elaboration" of the Little Horn of Daniel 7....just different angles to get new points across, and express various components and characteristics of this power. They both rule for a period of 1260 days, both persecute the saints, and both blaspheme God. This Beast seems to carry over all the ideologies from its predecessors, the Dragon-Like Beast, the Leopard, the Bear, and the Lion--which is why this Beast is a composite beast. It's a "repetition and enlargement" of the Little Horn of Daniel 7.

[Lysimachus]

OK, well, I am withdrawing from discussing stuff here any more in general, because it seems like it's mostly a rehash of the same things, but, I agree with you 100% on all of this, and am very interested to hear more. Is this the general SDA view, are you SDA ?

You raise a good question BibleOnly. It doesn't hurt to ask. Always remember that, in any denominational forum, there are always those who hold to some "offshoot" ideas that are not mainstream within the denomination. And that doesn't necessarily mean these ideas are wrong, but it's always good to ask.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

I can't name all the specifics, but some that we know of was the different Western Cultures, including the children with the "preaching disease" There was Joseph Wolf, and Joseph Wolf mentioned that the Danite Jews were looking for the Messiah to come at this time, a Moslem group living in the same area expecting Jesus to come at that time, as well as a second Moslem group he came across. Also there were priests across indo china preaching the 1844 message as well, now while I assume these were Christians, all I read was that there were priests. We learn of more groups here and there as we learn more about different cultures. It was a movement that crossed the different great religions bringing about a less focus on their superstitions and more of a simple reaching out to their understanding of god to save them and being kinder people. I believe that it was Dr. J Dukahn pointed out differnt 1844 movements in different pockets of Judaism where ever Jews were centralized.

Just undocumented hearsay and fantasy.

Sorry Miz3, but I'm afraid that is your imagination speeking, even though I do not have all the documentation to present here, they are all documented and the documentation was presented in classes when I was in college and graduateschool.

[BibleOnly]

Well, I've not left in a huff. I've merely withdrawn from discussion that is unfruitful. So, yes, I am definitely still interested in this discussion. I am gone from the world of computers for 10 days after Christmas, so you have plenty of time to pull something together :-)

[Kevin H]

One of the big points of confusion with the Investagative Judgment comes with the idea of Judgement/Atonement because in modern Christianity there are two different definations of Judgement/Atonement.

The Catholic-Protestant defination is "What is done so that God would let me into heaven and not send me to hell?" of which the Catholics saw as going through Christ's Church and Protestants saw as the passion/crucifiction of Jesus.

Then there is the Jewish word "Kippur" (as in the holiday "Yom Kippur") which is translated in the Bible as Judgment or Atonement.

While the Protestant defination of Atonement is a punctillier one time only event, the death of Jesus. the Hebrew word "Kippur" is ANYTIME God does something special to reveal himself to created beings which if accepted will deepen their relationship with God and if rejected the people are missing their blessing that God wants to give them. The first Kippur was when the first created beings first opened it's eyes and saw his creator and the world that the creator put the person in. The last kippur will be when it would be impossible for God to ever do anything special for someone and when created beings know everthing that there is possible to know about the Infinate God and when it is impossibe for our love for God to grow deeper. In other words Kippurs started long before the sin problem and will continue through out eternity long after the sin problem is over.

One of the problems with the Investigative Judgment is that for the Catholic-Protestant defination it sounds almost like going back to the Catholic being saved through the church, and thus easy to jump to the false conclusion of being saved through the Seventh-day Adventist church, as opposed to the truth about the only thing that does save us, the death of Jesus.

And exprated parrents have misused the Investigative Judgment to try to make their children behave "Your name might come up in the judgment and if you are naughty when that happens you will be lost!!!" and this has given a bad taste in the mouth for their children. This is wrong and I reject this interpetation of the Investagative Judgment.

The Investagative Judgment is more correctly a "Kippur" in the mid 1800s life on earth changed from the centuries before. The industral revolution, increase in knowlege and how God is helping us to deal with these dramatic changes. It also includes an explosion in Biblical knowlege. In the 1830s Robinson explored the middle east which opened the door for the re-discovery of Biblical Geography, Archaeology and the re-discovery of ancient world, including the cultural and geographic background to the Bible. There were also discoveries of ancient literature and literary structures and conentations of what the words of scripture mean. It is a time where we are able to study the scriptures such as never before. A chance to investigate the scriptures in a way that Luther, Tyndal, Wesley couldn't even dream of. They would love to be alive today and have the tools we have started to get in the mid 1800s to apply to their Bible Study.

Also, heaven and hell are NOT two different places, but our responses to seeing God in person in all God's beauty and love and glory. We don't stand before the judgment seat of God trembeling while God or St. Peter or someone looks at our lifes and we either wipe the sweat from our brow as we hear that yes we can go into heaven, or are dragged off kicking and screaming to be taken to hell. God treats us all the same. But we either develop characters of rejecting the Holy Spirit's pleading on our heart, or it becomes characteristic of us to yied to the Holy Spirit's pleadings to our heart. Life comes from our connection to the source of life. Life for humans, and angels and beings on other planets. Those who have not sinned are still required to have this righteousness by faith connection to the source of life to live. To the ancient world the events that happen in heaven is reflected on earth. Our studying of the Bible with archaeology etc. is the earthly reflection and the heavenly reflection is that the unfallen get to review how God worked with the fallen creatures who turned to him for salvation. This helps them to understand their own salvation better and deepens their love for Jesus

[BibleOnly]

"And exprated parrents have misused the Investigative Judgment to try to make their children behave"

Well, perhaps, but that's just silly. I'm always especially careful when it comes to teaching my kids about God to not take short cuts or to get them to do what I want now, at the cost of their long term understanding.

So, life definitely changed during the industrial revolution. But, are you saying that 1844 was a change in how man behaved, or that God did something at that moment ? Or is it the case that God has done something differently over time, starting there ? What makes 1844 the definite date, rather than just the vicinity of time ?

[Kevin H]

I have to admit I see the understanding of the prophecy to the vicinity of time to let us know that something was happening and to start looking around to see what it was.

However it is specific as it is the Jublee year that occured at the dawning of these events. And it is indeed the 2300 year from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

Some of the Bible texts are specific terms, such as days, weeks of years etc. and looking at say Henri Frankfort and others "Before Philosophy" (University of Chicago Press 1946) you can learn about the ancient thought forms that were in the culture of the Bible.

The term in Daniel 8:14 does NOT have a specific meaning of days or years, but a term that refers to they cycles. Leviticus 25 gives the cycles for the Hebrews: They are 6 things and a Sabbath: 6 days plus the Sabbath, the 6 month growing seasons with the Sabbaths on either end of Passover and Yom Kippur, 6 years and the Sabbathical year, and 6 Sabbathical years and the Jublee. Thus the term in Daniel 8:14 can mean literal days, months or years.

Daniel 8:14 was given the year that included 2300 literal days until the fall of Babylon. Thus it was again specific yet pointed to a vicinity of time. If you look at Ezekiel 38 and 39, it and Chapers 9-12 of Daniel studied in their local application, tells what WOULD have happened had Jesus been accepted instead of rejected. The time in Ezekiel 38 and 39 would have come to 2310 days, if you subtract the 10 days from New Year to Yom Kippur you then have 2300 days and it would have described the last 2300 days of the 70th week had Jesus been accepted.

But because the term in Daniel 8:14 is cyclic and not punctillier, we cannot only limit it to days, and the last application would be years, ending on the day of Atonement of 1844. I know that there is debate over whether Oct 22 was truely the day of Atonement this year, but whether the specific day is correct or not, it still used Biblical principles that pointed us to the importance of this vicinity of time.

[BibleOnly]

"Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

I've always accepted that a day in a prophecy is sometimes a year, sometimes a thousand years, but I assume it's always accurate and not general.

You seem to be saying that this prophecy was fulfilled within a general space of time, but nothing specific happened in 1844 ?

[phkrause]

"Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

I've always accepted that a day in a prophecy is sometimes a year, sometimes a thousand years, but I assume it's always accurate and not general.

You seem to be saying that this prophecy was fulfilled within a general space of time, but nothing specific happened in 1844 ?

Of course nothing happen here on earth??? Jesus went from the Holy to the Most Holy in Heaven! It was mistaken predicted that this was to be the 2nd coming. But when it didn't happen, it was studied more, and finally they figured out that it was an event in Heaven and not Jesus' 2nd coming here on earth.

[BibleOnly]

OK, in that case, how do we know it happened, and what difference did it make to us ?

[Gerr]

I don't know whose post you were responding to, but what happened in 1844? The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began. In the typical earthly sanctuary service, the priests had their daily ministration and once a year had the Day of Atonement service. In the daily services, sins confessed by the sinner at the altar near the entrance at the court, was carried by the priest through the blood of the sacrifice into the sanctuary. In the Day of Atonement service, those sins were symbolically atoned for & cleansed by the blood of the Lord's goat that was taken into the Most Holy Place and sprinkled over the Ark of the Covenant. Since Satan is ultimately the originator and instigator of all sin, he has to bear the penalty for his part in those transgressions. This is symbolized by the sins being transferred to the goat for Azazel which was then taken into the wilderness. This ritual is described in book of Leviticus in chapter 16. This is a very solemn day among Orthodox Jews because it is a day of judgment.

In the anitypical priestly ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, SDAs believe that He entered the second phase of his ministry in 1844 to begin His work of Judgment. Adventists call this the Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgment. That there is going to be a Judgment someday is a doctrine accepted by traditional Christianity.

Why a pre-advebt judgment? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." The Parable of the Net shows that the gospel brings in good & bad fish. The fisherman sorts/separates them. In another parable, Jesus told of the good seed and an enemy sowing weeds. They were permitted to grow together until harvest time, at which time they were to be separated. SDAs believe this judgment of separation is going on right now. It is not for God's benefit per se, since God knows everything. It is for the benefit of the onlooking universe and believers who may lose loved ones whom they may have thought to be saved people.

That the hour of His judgment has come started to be preached after 1844 in fulfillment of the first angel's message in Rev 14. That judgment started with the dead probably beginning with the first believer who died, Abel. We do not know when the judgment begins on the living, but once the judgment is finished, probation will close, and Jesus will come. The judgment of the wicked will come at a later date - during the millenium.

This is a very brief summary of 1844 and subsequent events. Books have been written up on this subject.

[Gerr]

OK, in that case, how do we know it happened, and what difference did it make to us ?

See my post above.

[BibleOnly]

I don't know whose post you were responding to, but what happened in 1844? The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began. In the typical earthly sanctuary service, the priests had their daily ministration and once a year had the Day of Atonement service. In the daily services, sins confessed by the sinner at the altar near the entrance at the court, was carried by the priest through the blood of the sacrifice into the sanctuary. In the Day of Atonement service, those sins were symbolically atoned for & cleansed by the blood of the Lord's goat that was taken into the Most Holy Place and sprinkled over the Ark of the Covenant. Since Satan is ultimately the originator and instigator of all sin, he has to bear the penalty for his part in those transgressions. This is symbolized by the sins being transferred to the goat for Azazel which was then taken into the wilderness. This ritual is described in book of Leviticus in chapter 16. This is a very solemn day among Orthodox Jews because it is a day of judgment.

In the anitypical priestly ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, SDAs believe that He entered the second phase of his ministry in 1844 to begin His work of Judgment. Adventists call this the Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgment. That there is going to be a Judgment someday is a doctrine accepted by traditional Christianity.

Why a pre-advebt judgment? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." The Parable of the Net shows that the gospel brings in good & bad fish. The fisherman sorts/separates them. In another parable, Jesus told of the good seed and an enemy sowing weeds. They were permitted to grow together until harvest time, at which time they were to be separated. SDAs believe this judgment of separation is going on right now. It is not for God's benefit per se, since God knows everything. It is for the benefit of the onlooking universe and believers who may lose loved ones whom they may have thought to be saved people.

That the hour of His judgment has come started to be preached after 1844 in fulfillment of the first angel's message in Rev 14. That judgment started with the dead probably beginning with the first believer who died, Abel. We do not know when the judgment begins on the living, but once the judgment is finished, probation will close, and Jesus will come. The judgment of the wicked will come at a later date - during the millenium.

This is a very brief summary of 1844 and subsequent events. Books have been written up on this subject.

Why do you think that God needs 160 + years to work through the list of the dead ? Can you see how, for someone who does not presuppose that the SDA is right, all of this sounds like 'we made a prediction that did not come true, so we need to explain how it DID come true, only invisibly' ? The JWs do the same thing with a date in the early 20th century, I believe.

A lot of the parables are about Israel, and not the church. A lot of people miss that fact. For example, the parable of the prodigal son - does God really give us all our inheritance now, and in ways that we can squander it ? If we do turn out back on God, does He always take us back, after we've destroyed what He gave us ? Who is the brother who is upset when God does this for us ? This parable is about Israel and Judah.

Either way, it's a bit disjointed to say the church has weeds in it, and God is judging them now, as if He didn't know who was who, when He knew us from the beginning of the earth. He knows the end from the beginning. He doesn't need a good period of time at His study desk to work out who to let in.