1844

[Kevin H]

A day unto the Lord is like a thousand years is taking a text out if it's context to make an application. We judge by the specific context of the verst as to whether the day is talking cyclic or a literal day. And if it is cyclic then we have to turn to the text that tells us what the options for the cycles are, which is Leviticus 25. Leviticus 25 does not give us a day = 1,000 year as an option. The text saying that the day unto the Lord is like 1,000 years is not in the context of giving us cyclic framework and thus not applical for interpetation of a cyclic day.

Besides, the Leviticus options were set periods of time. The word "Thousand" took a while to become a number. Originally Thousands meant a military unit trained to fight together, and was usually consisted of about 10 people, and it was also applied to a family group, and also was a symbol for "Pleanty of time to take care of something" such as a teacher who has time to really help a student understand something as opposed to needing to try to help but being in a hurry) and the text is simply saying that the Lord is timeless.

In the book of John, John the Baptist says "Behold the Lamb of God which Scapegoates the sins of the world." indicating that the anouncement was given on the day of Atonement at the start of the 70th week of years. This pointed to about the time Jesus was starting his ministry, even though he had been living among us for "about" 30 years (which could cover the ages from late 20s and through out the 30s, some evidence indicates that when someone was "about" an age that it could even include the first couple of years of the next decade, so "about 30 years" meant Jesus was someplace from his late 20s to early 40s when he started his ministry) He was doing ministry before John the Baptist made the anouncement, and it was a little bit before his ministry got into full swing, but that specific date on yom kippur of 27 AD was the date that Daniel 9 pointed to and on that day the only thing that happened was John the Baptist making that statement and a couple of his disciples went to ask Jesus where he lived. So not much for that specific day but pointed to the event.

Yom Kippur in 1844 was first a jublee year that was occuring during this time period and in the year that happened to be the 2300 cycle and anniversery of a year application from Leviticus. We know what day the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given (there are two independent extra bibilcal sources pointing it out) We have John the Baptist using day of atonement language in 27 AD righ on the day that is a year application of the weeks of years, and yom Kippur 1844, whether you say something happened that day or not that you can put your finger on, you still have the fact that that day was both a jublee year and the 2300th annerversery of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, thus one of the specific days fitting the cycles of Leviticus.

And don't be to skeptical of God using a Biblical text to point to something larger. The prophecy for the star and septer over Israel, the septer was a symbol for a king and star was a god, so it was saying that one day Israel would have a king who was God himself. Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecy. There did not need to be a star in the sky, but because the magi were looking for a literal star in the sky, they were mistaken to expect a literal star, but if it's a star they wanted, a star they got, but it lead them to the true fulfillment of the prophecy.

[phkrause]

I don't know whose post you were responding to, but what happened in 1844? The cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began. In the typical earthly sanctuary service, the priests had their daily ministration and once a year had the Day of Atonement service. In the daily services, sins confessed by the sinner at the altar near the entrance at the court, was carried by the priest through the blood of the sacrifice into the sanctuary. In the Day of Atonement service, those sins were symbolically atoned for & cleansed by the blood of the Lord's goat that was taken into the Most Holy Place and sprinkled over the Ark of the Covenant. Since Satan is ultimately the originator and instigator of all sin, he has to bear the penalty for his part in those transgressions. This is symbolized by the sins being transferred to the goat for Azazel which was then taken into the wilderness. This ritual is described in book of Leviticus in chapter 16. This is a very solemn day among Orthodox Jews because it is a day of judgment.

In the anitypical priestly ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, SDAs believe that He entered the second phase of his ministry in 1844 to begin His work of Judgment. Adventists call this the Investigative Judgment or Pre-Advent Judgment. That there is going to be a Judgment someday is a doctrine accepted by traditional Christianity.

Why a pre-advebt judgment? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven." The Parable of the Net shows that the gospel brings in good & bad fish. The fisherman sorts/separates them. In another parable, Jesus told of the good seed and an enemy sowing weeds. They were permitted to grow together until harvest time, at which time they were to be separated. SDAs believe this judgment of separation is going on right now. It is not for God's benefit per se, since God knows everything. It is for the benefit of the onlooking universe and believers who may lose loved ones whom they may have thought to be saved people.

That the hour of His judgment has come started to be preached after 1844 in fulfillment of the first angel's message in Rev 14. That judgment started with the dead probably beginning with the first believer who died, Abel. We do not know when the judgment begins on the living, but once the judgment is finished, probation will close, and Jesus will come. The judgment of the wicked will come at a later date - during the millenium.

This is a very brief summary of 1844 and subsequent events. Books have been written up on this subject.

Great post Gerry. I think that Bibleonly was responding to me. But I couldn't have said it any better.

[Kevin H]

Why do you think that God needs 160 + years to work through the list of the dead ? Can you see how, for someone who does not presuppose that the SDA is right, all of this sounds like 'we made a prediction that did not come true, so we need to explain how it DID come true, only invisibly' ? The JWs do the same thing with a date in the early 20th century, I believe.

A lot of the parables are about Israel, and not the church. A lot of people miss that fact. For example, the parable of the prodigal son - does God really give us all our inheritance now, and in ways that we can squander it ? If we do turn out back on God, does He always take us back, after we've destroyed what He gave us ? Who is the brother who is upset when God does this for us ? This parable is about Israel and Judah.

Either way, it's a bit disjointed to say the church has weeds in it, and God is judging them now, as if He didn't know who was who, when He knew us from the beginning of the earth. He knows the end from the beginning. He doesn't need a good period of time at His study desk to work out who to let in.

Because God's "working through a list of the dead" means on a heavenly level that God is giving time for the universe to study and review to help them grow, and for us on earth to learn more about the scripture to study and grow and learn.

Yes, he knew from the begining who is his. He knew from the begining that Adam and Eve ate the fruit, he could have shown up and said "I know where you are and I know what you did" but that is not his character. His character is to take time to work with us, to ask Adam and Eve "Where are you?" "What happened?" "Did you eat of the fruit?" why did God need an investigative judgement with Adam and Eve? He didn't but they did. Why didn't God have this investagative judgement with them on friday of creation? because world conditions did not require it until they ate the fruit and tried to hide from God.

The idea of investigative judgements is an ancient idea wanting the god to investigate their case and grant their requests.

This is a step in how God is taking time to work on dealing with the 3 deceptions of Satan and work with his created beings in the issues of the Great Controversy.

[BibleOnly]

Kevin:

I am trying to understand what you're saying, I am trying to listen. However, I could point to prophecies in the Bible that WERE fulfilled by taking a statement of days and applying 1000 years. The other thing is, it's about 6000 years since Adam, so I think a day to a thousand years is a concrete concept in terms of the millenium starting soon and being a 'seventh day' of rest for the earth.

As 30 was the age at which one could enter the priesthood as a Levite, I think that there's concrete reasons to believe Jesus was 30 at the start of His ministry, which was for 3 1/2 years so He was 'cut off in the midst of the week'.

I guess my main issue is simply that you seem to be saying that something visible was predicted and did not happen, and then it was decided that the predictor was right, but the thing that happened was invisible and has no solid evidence to this day.

[miz3]

Sorry Miz3, but I'm afraid that is your imagination speeking, even though I do not have all the documentation to present here, they are all documented and the documentation was presented in classes when I was in college and graduateschool.

The only documentation necessary which you fail to provide is the Bible and the Bible only.

You cannot give us: Book, Chapter, and verse.

You give us long explanations that come so many varied sources which are not Biblical. You cite these as "interpreters" of the Bible.

The Bible does not need these human source interpreters.

The Bible is its own interpreter.

Since you use human source interpreters to explain your views of the Bible your views cannot be reliable.

What makes your "human source interpreters" the only true "interpreters". If you rely on such human resources for your knowledge why do you then ignore other human resources who interpret these same Bible texts vastly different than you do? Surely such are just as valid in their interpretations of the Bible as your human resources are.

Thus, in your practices the Bible is not the "ultimate arbiter". Your practices make "human resource interpreters" as the ultimate arbiter. As such what makes your human resources better than those human resources that disagree with you.

Surely you can see the danger and fallacy of your methods.

[Kevin H]

Kevin:

I am trying to understand what you're saying, I am trying to listen. However, I could point to prophecies in the Bible that WERE fulfilled by taking a statement of days and applying 1000 years. The other thing is, it's about 6000 years since Adam, so I think a day to a thousand years is a concrete concept in terms of the millenium starting soon and being a 'seventh day' of rest for the earth.

This is another topic that we dealt with before. There are 2 big problems with the world being about 6,000 years since Adam.

1. The ancient manuscripts are very difficult to read and translate in those passages and the ancient textual families are not in agreement. The Messeritic text, based on the Babylonian family, is where we get the 6,000 years from. But the Palestinian text had the world at 7,000 years when Jesus came (one reason why we have 6,000 years is because Jews that rejected Jesus did not like that he was living and having his ministry when their Bible read that it was 7,000 years from creation so they picked texts that put the 7,000 year out in the future) Thus by the Bible Jesus used, the world would be about 9,000 years old. The different manuscrips found of the Egyptian family of texts (the Bible Paul used) has the current age of the earth from 7,000 to 10,000. There are too many discreptncies in the ancent texts to use them for proof for the 6,000 years.

2. We base the 6,000, 7,000, 9,000 and 10,000 on adding up the generations. However ancient geneologies have gaps in them. When the Bible reads "when Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan" we understand this from our Greek thinking to be only a father/son relationship. But the ancient world this meant that Enosh and Kenan were important people, and that Kenan was a decendent of the important person Enosh. (to make it more complicated, we don't know if it is a biological decendent or if it was a successor in an office like a list of the Pressident of the United States) but assuming that this geneology is not the important leaders of Adam and Eve's decendents, but the biological decendents, it would simply mean that at age 90 Enosh had a child. That child was either the person Kenan, or it was the decendent from whom Kenan decended from. So Enosh could be Kenan's father, Grandfather, or even throw in a couple of greats. I know that is confusing for us, but that was how they thought when the text was written. We can not force our culture on their's but need to read the text by the culture it was written in.

Thus we need to be cautious on how tightly we hold to the number 6,000, and it is based on Jewish leader's rejection of Jesus causing them the choose the correct manuscript and that unlike ALL the other ancient geneologies, the Genesis geneology fits modern western thinking.

[Kevin H]

Kevin:

As 30 was the age at which one could enter the priesthood as a Levite, I think that there's concrete reasons to believe Jesus was 30 at the start of His ministry, which was for 3 1/2 years so He was 'cut off in the midst of the week'.

Then why did the Bible use the term "About 30" when in that culture the "about" a certan age can include such a long range instead of using a more specific term. Yes it could be when he was exactly 30, however my point was that he was already living among us for about 30 years (and that it could be anyplace from late 20s to early 40 but how that term was used in that time) yet despite the fact that Jesus had been living among us for a couple of decades, and it was a couple of days before a more public ministry, it was still on the Yom Kipper that fit Daniel's prophecy that John the Baptist gave the anouncement. We can say "Well what was happening had been happeing for a couple of decades and the next mile stone was with in a few days or weeks or months, so what happened on Yom Kipper of that specific year in relation to Daniel's prophecy for that to give credence to John the Baptist?"

[BibleOnly]

I guess at the end of the day, it's possible in both places that I see patterns that are not there. I'd rather believe that they are, but I do think it's a topic that's open for discussion and that won't save anyone's soul.

[Kevin H]

Kevin:

I guess my main issue is simply that you seem to be saying that something visible was predicted and did not happen, and then it was decided that the predictor was right, but the thing that happened was invisible and has no solid evidence to this day.

First, we have the Biblical and archaeological evidence. We have a prophecy given in a year that included 2300 literal days from the fall of Babylon that was reapplied to being connected to the decree to rebuild and restore Jerusalem. Daniel uses the cyclic term that according to the cycles of Leviticus 25, would have Daniel have in mind 2300 days, 2300 half years and 2300 full years as potential fulfillments. And 1844 happened to fall in the date that would have been the 2300 full years. One of the possibiities that Daniel would have consciously had on his mind. And this does point us to a very active year in an incredible time period, and it was the Jublee year that fell when these events were taking place. 1844 was when Darwin published the orgin of the species. And there were so many events that were clumping around that period. Yes it would have been nice to say that Robinson left the ship and stood on the land in the Middle East on Yom Kippur 1844, but this is definetely a time period that the text has pointed our pioneers to realize that there were important changes going on and that if we took advantage of them they will teach us more about Jesus, and the more we learn about Jesus the more we become like him.

[BibleOnly]

OK - so, you're saying that a lot was going on, in the human world, and because the numbers line up, you assume this was in response to invisible things that happened in the spiritual realm, of which there is no direct evidence, but there's enough circumstantial evidence to convince those inclined to believe it ?

[miz3]

I am all for Lysimachus to hold any view that pleases him. However, I object when people give exaggerated data which cannot be documented in any way shape or form.

That is why I asked the questions I did in regard to Lysimachus' posts. Either Lysimachus gives us the solid documentation or does the correct thing and admit that he ... was not correct in stating what he stated.

Either the data is correct or it is not. I have asked for documentation and Lysimachus has given none.

Again, I call on Lysimachus to either give us the documentation to support what I see as exaggerations on a monumental scale concerning 1844 and the belief that such was the Second Coming and that such went TOTALLY AROUND THE WORLD BY MANY IN ALL AREAS OF THE WORLD, or

. . .

Also that Lysimachus agree that his view of 1844 did not actually cover even the whole US but was only in earnest in parts of the US and maybe some very small pockets in Europe.

Second most of the World had nary a clue of such goings on as he asserted in his early posts.

I ask this only so we can have a Truthful record of what actually took place in 1844.

[BibleOnly]

My point is entirely that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[Gerr]

Why do you think that God needs 160 + years to work through the list of the dead

God can finish the judgment in a nanosecond, but remember, Jesus came to save sinners. If Jesus finished the Judgment now and came, how many people close to you would be lost? He is trying to save as many as He can. Why did Noah preach for 120 years?

[BibleOnly]

That makes zero sense. My point is, He KNOWS who is saved, there's no list for Him to start working through, and if He's working through it slowly to make a point, then what is that point ?

[John317]

The Investigatve Judgment is not in order for God to learn anything. The IJ is done the way it is for the sake of the whole onlooking universe. God does nothing in secret. It is all open for everyone to see why the lost aren't in God's kingdom and why the saved are.

[John317]

There are quite a few good books that have been written explaining the answers to your questions regarding the Investigative Judgment. Have you ever attemped to find these and read them?

Two very good ones recently published are:

Bradley Williams' The Silencing of Satan The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment.

Marvin Moore's The Case For the Investigative Judgment.

You can get both books at the Adventist Book Center. If Williams' book is not in stock, you can order it there.

[John317]

Again, I call on Lysimachus to either give us the documentation to support what I see as exaggerations on a monumental scale concerning 1844 and the belief that such was the Second Coming and that such went TOTALLY AROUND THE WORLD BY MANY IN ALL AREAS OF THE WORLD,

Check out the chapter in the book, The Great Controversy, concerning that topic. It covers the question pretty well and gives documentation.

[John317]

Do you believe that a judgment takes place before Christ's return for His church?

[BibleOnly]

No. I believe the judgement takes place during our lives, by the choices we make, and is therefore known at the time of our deaths. The result of that judgement is made clear when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ rise, but, there's no period where God does not know if Martin Luther, or Paul, or my great grandmother, will make it.

[miz3]

The Investigatve Judgment is not in order for God to learn anything. The IJ is done the way it is for the sake of the whole onlooking universe. God does nothing in secret. It is all open for everyone to see why the lost aren't in God's kingdom and why the saved are.

Can you please give Book, Chapter, and verse where it says that God is having the IJ for the whole Universe before God comes in the clouds of Heaven?

[miz3]

There are quite a few good books that have been written explaining the answers to your questions regarding the Investigative Judgment. Have you ever attemped to find these and read them?

Two very good ones recently published are:

Bradley Williams' The Silencing of Satan The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment.

Marvin Moore's The Case For the Investigative Judgment.

You can get both books at the Adventist Book Center. If Williams' book is not in stock, you can order it there.

These are not Biblical Authority.

Could we have simple clear unambiguous Biblical Authority please?

[John317]

I'm not sure if you've seen the official belief of the SDA church concerning the Investigative Judgment. I think it's a good place to start when discussing what Seventh-day Adventists believe about the Investigatie Judgment:

Quote:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.(Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

NOTE: Nothing is said that would suggest God learns anything from the Investigative Judgment.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Again, I call on Lysimachus to either give us the documentation to support what I see as exaggerations on a monumental scale concerning 1844 and the belief that such was the Second Coming and that such went TOTALLY AROUND THE WORLD BY MANY IN ALL AREAS OF THE WORLD,

Check out the chapter in the book, The Great Controversy, concerning that topic. It covers the question pretty well and gives documentation.

Not credible authority. She was just copying what she heard others say and what she read that they wrote.

We need documented stats and confirmed historical data.

[miz3]

No. I believe the judgement takes place during our lives, by the choices we make, and is therefore known at the time of our deaths. The result of that judgement is made clear when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ rise, but, there's no period where God does not know if Martin Luther, or Paul, or my great grandmother, will make it.

Correct.

[Stan]

Miz3 you are not well informed.