Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 7, 2012 Administrators Share Posted January 7, 2012 Have you ever wondered about God's priorities? I don't mean in the traditional sense. (Heaven forbid that I should ever give any quarter to considering the sense of tradition...) I mean in the way in which the Divine plan unfolds as evidenced to us as humans. When you observe the actions of most people, in time you get a pretty good sense of their priorities - that on which they spend a great deal of their time, energy and resources is likely a priority. Priorities are given more time, a prominent place, they come up in conversation frequently. People make priorities a point of emphasis by repetition. Priorities are seldom the last thing people get around to doing. Serious priorities are seldom lost sight of. And observation also gives a clue as to why such things are a priority. So my first question is about the Sabbath. Why did God make the Sabbath the final test for the very end of time? Why did He let it get lost sight of for centuries? Why has there not been clear emphasis on the Sabbath repeatedly throughout history since Jesus time here on earth. Why does it almost seem like a secret code or handshake that this is considered by Adventists as the ultimate sign of loyalty to God? Why bury the idea in an obscure book the meaning of which is the subject of more confusion and misunderstanding that just about anything else in Scripture? Jesus said and demonstrated that the Jews were wrong in their ideas about the Sabbath. They made it their ultimate priority. They even determined that the Messiah's coming hinged on the Sabbath, that He would come once they kept the Sabbath perfectly. Jesus struggled to set them straight about their Sabbath priorities. Do we yet get what his priority was? As he left, he will return. He will be looking for those who get it. He said to pray that we would not be stuck on the Sabbath on that Great Day. Maybe we confuse our own priority for God's... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yes Tom you bring up a very good question here. Why and how could the truth of the Sabbath, seventh day get lost for so many centuries? I believe it shows us the power of the great deceiver and his cohorts among men. And how can it be put aside so lightly. To break one is to break all and we are bound by them. They are in the hearts of all who are truly His and it is the Love we have same as His that is now our hearts transcript too. How much do we truly Love Him? We all know that answer. If you love me, keep em, He tells us. 1 John 4:4 Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 8, 2012 Author Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2012 I am thinking that the point may be missed. Focus more on God's priorities and less on the Sabbath. Jesus did. That is the point. And so shall it be in the end of time. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Tom, Doggone, I wonder what one we are not to get stuck on and receive the mark though. I think he listed all the most important of the priorities in His Law of Love which if we Truly are of Him they too are our priorities of Love. You know it is great to know the Law of Heaven is just that short uncomplicated setting forth of His Transcript of His Love that never needs added to or amended as say for the laws of America with it's thousands upon thousands of pages and additions all the time and if you have a wiley enough of a lawyer he can wrest it to get one freed, if you have the money and prestige. But not so with that Wonderful Royal Law of Heaven that is from TRUE LOVE. We definitly need His Love to have His Priorities. I suppose it's like True Christian Unity, which is all that are Truly One in Christ and then all are One, True Unity together all in Him. Read 1Jo 4:4 Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 8, 2012 Author Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2012 So if it is all about love, what makes the Sabbath all about love? What distinguishes its element of love from the other nine? How is it different in the love department? (I am not sure you are quite there yet. But whether you realize it or not you are getting very close to the point of the OP.) Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I think the Love angle enters in when we love to come to that special window of time that He comes to tabernacle with us Spiritually. It is a festive meeting with Him Spiritually giving Him our love for His Great Gift and Righteousness in all things. We acknowledge His Word Is The Truth and the Only foundation of Truth and that He is the Fountain of Wisdom and He will impart to all who ask. It is a Love Fest to Him is my best description at the moment. EGW applied to Him who is Wisdom and with a third grade education of the world, she is still Head and Shoulders above any of men I have known of in our time. He fills the dedicated ones to Him. Wonderful is His name for one. Love Him? How can we not but Love Him? 1Jo 4:4 Ah Tom, no quote this time, but that is a favorite. Thanks, I didn't remember. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 8, 2012 Author Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2012 Almost there until the detour... Who is the object of the love in the commandments? In other words, who receives the benefit of the directive commanded? The first three are the same. The last six are same but different from the first three. The fourth in the middle ties them together for a combined objective. Hint, none of them is about ourself. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm probably not in line with your OP and thought, but anyway... I think we get so, I'm not sure what word to use, about the "7th day" that we don't really even try to keep it, or know how, for far too many of us. We have been advised not to spend our sabbaths indoors, not to always have sermons on the sabbath, yet how many of us, myself included, go out into God's great "house" and contemplate His works, try to connect with Him through His creation? It seems like we are stuck on going to church on that day... Then there are those who go help out in soup kitchens on that day, which is, I think, more in line with the point you may be trying to get to. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 10, 2012 Members Share Posted January 10, 2012 You make some very good points teresaq Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 One of the results of analyzing the Sabbath in terms of love is that love is lost. The analyzing creates a state of being that is too self conscious for love. One of the things that clued me in to the nonsense of this idea that Sabbath is this test is that it is not obvious. It takes way too many mental gymnastics to work. To explain this to someone who is not an Adventist takes a number of classes. Something this important should appeal to the heart. It shouldn't take complicated and convoluted explanations. That looks too much like someone is trying to sell you a used car. Who can fall in love with something this complicated and unintuitive? The idea of rest is obvious. Having to do it on a particular day associated with a death penalty and loss of eternal life is not. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 In Israel, when i was there a few weeks ago, the folks said they do not keep the Sabbath, they celebrate it. Friday night families get together. It is a rich day of the week. Sometimes the cart get puts before the horse, other times the cart really NEEDS to go before the horse. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted March 14, 2012 Administrators Share Posted March 14, 2012 My goodness, how can one NOT love the Sabbath? A whole day with the Lord, reading and meditating on His word, rejoicing and talking to like-minded people over deep theological themes? Plus sharing a easy-to-prepare meal... Spending time with loved ones, an excuse for a holiday... It's like Daddy has declared "Dad and daughter" day! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Agreed! Sabbath is the best day of the week, and I'm so glad that my school is organized around it. It's a welcome break from all of my classes. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Ahhhh! Something smells good! Quote: In Israel, when i was there a few weeks ago, the folks said they do not keep the Sabbath, they celebrate it. Hmmm, the best response/answer I have heard. Tastes wonderful! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 15, 2012 Members Share Posted March 15, 2012 Excellent post Stan. The Jews Definitely celebrate the Sabbath and not just keep it like many want to believe. Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 It's not about liking or not liking what happens on the Sabbath. I like to rest. I like to spend time with my family. I like to eat good meals. That's an easy sell. Except, this wonderfulness is placed on a particular day under the threat of death. This doesn't really leave a lot of room for spontaneity. It becomes far too self-conscious. Let's say a powerful ruler comes to my house and says that unless I come to a party he is having this Saturday he is going to come around on Sunday and kill me and burn down my house. He might even choose to torture me. You bet I'm going to show up. And when he asks me if I'm having a wonderful time. I'm going to say yes. It doesn't matter if there is great food and entertainment. The fact that I'm being forced to be there places a context which makes it far more difficult to enjoy the party. That is what is not intuitive about the Sabbath. If the Sabbath is so wonderful why does there have to be threats of death and the loss of eternal life? No one seems willing to face that fact. There's all this deflection to how wonderful the Sabbath is. Of course you're going to say it's wonderful. You are under the threat of loss of eternal life. Your witness is not reliable because it's under the threat of death. That's the same reason we don't believe what hostages say on videos from terrorists. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 15, 2012 Members Share Posted March 15, 2012 So than I'm guessing you don't observe the rest of the commandments for the same reason? There's not one commandment that I do because I know I'm gonna die! I do them because that's what's in my heart. I usually agree with a lot of the things you say, but what I've notice you like to project your feelings on to others, I mean I guess that's all right. But for me the Sabbath is to celebrate not just to do because that's what's expected. I honor my creator, that's my feelings on that subject. Quote phkrause Obstinacy is a barrier to all improvement. - ChL 60 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 pkrause... You're missing the point. I can make a good case for a death penalty for murder. I can't conceive of any reason that one needs a death penalty for not observing the Sabbath on a particular day and time each week. You have simply used a semantic class (the 10 commandments) to group Sabbath observance with murder. You have no actual reasoning. This is just a shell game. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Some of the posts are missing, mine included. Cardw, I didn't miss the point. There is no death penalty for not keeping the Sabbath, nor is there any death penalty for keeping Sunday. (I assume you are referring to Rev 14?) There is a death penalty for being hateful and mean and out to get, including kill, those we cannot manipulate, coerce or control somehow. Those who aren't the way we want them to be somehow. I don't read it as God being this egotist that demands worship, or else, tho I have in the past. God is telling us that by worshiping Him, if we know the difference between Him and Satan, we will, or could be, better people. Yet if we worship Him thinking He has the attributes of Satan we end up just sick, miserable people hurting everyone around us. ---------------- Your post is also missing Tom. Some of the missing ones are in my email, so am responding to those. Without quoting your missing post, Jesus continued healing on the Sabbath. Jesus' whole life was about others, and He went around serving others, every day and on the Sabbath. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 When we are all about others then He will come. When we give up any and everything in our lives that hurts others (aka sin) then we are ready for heaven and the company of sinless beings. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Teresa, The reason why we don't have death penalty for not observing the Sabbath today is because our culture progressed from the OT puritanical mindset defined by the OT law. As hard as you may try, it's very difficult to reconcile the idea of just God who lets you choose whether you want to worship Him or not, and the God who orders people to stone someone for picking up sticks on a certain day. I've heard plenty of rationalizations for such behavior, but it simply is not what I would expect from infinitely wise being... perhaps a 10 year old child who played too much World Of Warcraft. I think it's rather naive to paint a requirement in terms of celebration. It's sort of like a top-down rhetoric by an excited professor that tries to relay to his students the joy of learning. "It's exciting", he says as he is met by the mildly shared enthusiasm of the students. Sabbath makes perfect sense in the context of continual indoctrination of certain nation that needs to be politically fused by common belief. That's what religious holidays were for. They were the 4th of Julys of the past. They were to unify people, and remind them what they stood for. That's why Sabbath was politically enforced by the threat of death. Sabbath was a convocation... meaning that people gathered and listened to the "Word from God" as to what they should be doing to remain in God's favor. I mean, REALLY think about it. If Sabbath was such a great and joyous thing worthy of celebrating, why would it need to be enforced by the threat of death? Imagine God saying "Each year, on your birthday you will buy a cake with as many candles as you have years. They you will light them, blow them out, and celebrate the day with your friends and family. If you fail to do that, you will be stoned to death and cut off from your family." That would sound a bit ridiculous. In fact, it would sort of diminish the celebration, because now people have to celebrate or be killed. It renders the idea of celebrating something absolutely meaningless. Now, it does make sense if we get back to the idea of Sabbath being a political indoctrination tool. People were not merely stay home and rest with their family... it was a day set aside for a Holy Convocation = continual indoctrination Now, I don't want to diminish the positive aspect of Adventist Sabbath. It's a great cultural concept that I enjoy even as non-believer. But, I think it's important to understand the difference between voluntary and compulsory. We could say that you voluntary apply for a driver's license, but the problem with this idea is that driving without one is illegal and can land you in jail, and not driving at all can have you starved with no job. The rules diminish your options, thus diminish your choices. For choice to be real, there have to be some real alternatives presented... other than agonizing death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted March 17, 2012 Author Administrators Share Posted March 17, 2012 Missing posts, missing the point - there's a whole lot of missing going on! We had to go to back up which lost a few posts. On the missing the point part - it would be well to go back and read the opening post and consider the topic title carefully before we continue further. Our discussion here is still centered on our priorities and the priority of the Jewish leaders that Jesus confronted in word and action. Jesus own words about and actions on the Sabbath demonstrate the difference. The difference was so profound that according to the gospel account that it galvanized the Jewish leaders resolve to kill him. The confusion was so great that keeping the Sabbath was more important than the life of a man. In their zeal to avoid violating the Sabbath they rushed to judgment and had Jesus executed quickly so they could be home in time for Sabbath. I fear we as Adventists tend to make the same mistake of confusion about what God wants, what he expects us to do. He wants us to get the same priority as He has always had. Jesus spells it out on what the final test will be in Matthew 25. That is God's priority. Missing the point... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Tom, Where does the Bible claim that God made the Sabbath the final test for humanity? Did Jesus ever make such a claim? What did Jesus say would be his criteria for determining the eternal destiny of every human being? Did he say it would be the Sabbath? I cannot find any text in the Bible supporting this doctrine. What I do find is that the ultimate litmus test will be the way we treat the least. This is clearly stated in Matthew 25. And I hope my post will not be deleted simply for pointing where to find this! Should I have said just the book of Mathew, or the Bible instead of Matthew 25? I am rather confused about how to avoid having my posts deleted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 True! There is no penalty for worshipping the Lord on Sunday, or Monday, or on every day of the week. Of Anna it is said that she never left the Temple and that she worshipped God day and night; but I suspect that even for her the Sabbath was a special day worth celebrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Tom, I fully agree with your comments. I am glad you cited Mathew 25, which is where Jesus made it crystal clear that our eternal destiny will be determined by the way we treat the least, those in need of things needed for life and the need for appreciation and symnpathy. I was reading the other day about the conversion of Manuel Noriega, the former dictator of Panama. He acepotd Jesus Christ as his Savior after someone gave him convincing evidence that God really loved him. Being in jail is a very lonely experience. He was desperate for some assurance that someone did love him, and he found said assurance after reading a couple of books writen by Ellen White which were given to him by a member of the Adventist Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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