Wondering About God's Priorities

[Nic Samojluk]

Tom,

I have a question. You provided a biblical reference--Matthew 25--and your post was not deleted. Are we allowed to provide a biblical verse as well without the fear of having our post deleted?

[cardw]

Tom,

I'm confused.

Even if the day of the week is a lower priority than say love for God it still continues to be part of the test, unless you are saying that the Sabbath is not a day of the week.

If God is saying, "My priority is that you love one another, but you will still die if you don't keep the Sabbath" the idea that I should love my neighbor is not going to exactly stand out in that list of priorities. The part where I'm going to die is going to get my attention.

Pointing out that the Jews called for the death of Jesus to preserve the Sabbath does not remove the fact that this 24 hour period every week is still considered the test of loyalty to god by the SDA church.

Maybe we could clear this up by asking this question to you. Do you consider the weekly observance of Sabbath on Saturday a determining factor in who is going to be saved in the last days?

Would it be OK with God if I observed the Sabbath say on Sunday or Monday? Or could I break it up and celebrate a bit on every day? Or is is a daily state of mind?

As long as there is a threat of death for not keeping the Sabbath it doesn't really matter where that particular idea is on a list of priorities.

[Tom Wetmore]

The posts were not deleted. The server went down and we had to go to a back-up which was done before the crash so some of the post just before the crash but after the back up, were lost. The forum was restored to a time point just before it crashed.

[Tom Wetmore]

I understand the confusion. (That sort of sounds odd...)

I think that what is reflected is man made interpretation of what God said about the Sabbath, both by Jews and Adventists. Starting with Moses, many rules and regulations were devised to interpret and apply the basic rules God etched in stone. It wasn't just the Sabbath, but that did generate the most. Jesus seemed to distinguish what Moses said and what God intended on quite a number of them. But the Sabbath generated the most friction for one very simple reason. The Jews, like we Adventists turned it into a salvation test. The Jewish rabbis taught that the Messiah, i.e. salvation for Israel, would not come until the Sabbath day was kept perfectly. We Adventists have fallen into the very same pit. And a lot of our Sabbath teaching is more oriented to Mosaic rules and regulations than Jesus' own teaching.

And specifically about Sabbath, he demonstrated that the Sabbath was not what they had made it out to be. He then showed that keeping the Sabbath was about not our own salvation, but rescuing others. And rescuing and healing mankind is God's priority. It is that doing good thing. The good that he spoke of that was permissible or appropriate on the Sabbath was specifically good that was to the benefit of others. And that is God's priority.

God is not waiting for the Sabbath day to be kept perfectly now any more than He was before Jesus arrived on the scene. But he is looking for a core group that do get His real priority and do a lot of loving one another and seeking to do good, as he intended, for even the least among us, for even our enemies, and especially for the helpless.

[Naomi]

[cardw]

Tom,

Why confuse good doing with the Sabbath day at all?

It makes no sense to me to point to a Sabbath day when you can point to good doing directly.

[phkrause]

[Woody]

[Tom Wetmore]

Good point. I do agree. And I think Jesus did go directly to the point of good doing in Matthew 25 as well as at many other times that didn't happen on the Sabbath. I think the highlighting of the Sabbath in the gospel account came to a head because he didn't stop good doing on the Sabbath. So it became an issue for the Jews. And he repudiated their concept of Sabbath keeping. And so I think we must repudiate our narrow view of Sabbath and open the concept to a more God priority keeping of the day.

But it seems that for Adventists and eschatology, if in the end it doesn't tie into the Sabbath somehow, they won't listen any more than the Jewish leaders listened to Jesus. Baby steps.

One step closer... I hear a song in my head now... Do you too?

[cardw]

Tom,

So, if I understand you correctly, you don't find the Sabbath relevant at all, but simply an accommodation for a SDA belief system.

[Tom Wetmore]

Not exactly not relevant at all. I just don't see it as relevant in the sense traditionally viewed by Adventists. I think it has value and it remains in the big ten. I still change pace on Sabbath and take a break from my usual work of earning a living. It may be unique in the big ten, but I don't think of it as being more important or less important than the other 9. But more significantly I am not persuaded that it is going to be the deciding factor from God's perspective in the end of time.

If it has anything to do with the end, it may be that Adventists, like the Jewish leaders in Jesus' time may force the issue on themselves always determined to elevate the Sabbath above all else. And in that sense it may be a test, but one that would turn out differently and in quite a different sense than humanly predicted. Jesus' descriptions and illustrations of the final judgment seem to suggest both groups will be surprised. I think this movie has a surprise ending. It may even be shocking.

[Overaged]

On an official teaching basis; the Adventist Church actually does not make the Sabbath any sort of a salvational test. I'd like to know where you get this from.

While it may be true that some have distorted the Sabbath; it does not follow that said distortions are the teachings of the church, or sanctioned by the church.

[Nic Samojluk]

I fully agree with your comments and your reasoning. The Jews redefined the Fourth Commandment and made it their supreme doctrine. We have done the same. They reinterpreted what the Lord commanded and made an exhaustive list of what was acceptable behavior on the Holy hours of the Sabbath. When they noticed that Jesus was healing on the Sabbath, they concluded that Jesus was a Sabbath breaker, and decided to execute him. Did not God order the stoning of a Sabbath breaker in the Old Testament? They killed Jesus and rushed home to keep the Sabbath Holy.

Likewise, we have elevated the Fourth Commandment above the other Nine. ...

Amen, brother! It is high time for us to repent and ask God for forgiveness for our great sin!

[cardw]

Tom,

You're right that it's in the big ten, but that is the only reason it enters the discussion.

There is no natural connection between the exact 24 hours of the Sabbath and caring for others indicated in the 10 commandments. It does talk about a general idea of rest. But if you wanted to communicate the idea that we need to care for others you simply would have to state that. It would be far more effective to write a commandment to care for others than to tell people to take a rest and worship their god all day.

You well know that the Sabbath is part of the SDA name and it is taught that Sabbath keeping will be the seal of god. This exact 24 hour period is the test.

If it was the spirit of the Sabbath then any day would do. But any day will not do because it is stuck right there in the middle of the big 10.

All these mental gymnastics are because that is where it sits. That is it only relevance. There is no deep spiritual teaching here.

[Overaged]

No "deep spiritual teaching" is possible when we try to say the Sabbath is not the seventh-day. Perhaps those who advocate such a thing are today's legalists, like the Jews of old?

Seems to me that when the Bible makes an absolute on something, there is always a core group of people who will rise up against it in the church.

Of course, the church needs to repent on a lot of things, so who will go first, instead of telling others to?

God does have some priorities about the Sabbath; and to wonder what they are is a good thing. But those priorities, when coupled with misinterpretations of the OT & NT passages about Sabbath, are getting really muddled in this topic...

[phkrause]

I agree very much OA. Problem that I see most of the time is that those trying to make that case are usually ones that have left the church and wound up believing that lie.

[phkrause]

Even though I agree with you and Tom's posts. Do you know the reason why the Jews got to that point of creating all those rules for the Sabbath?? They kept being invaded and taken captive, and they thought that it was because of the way they kept the Sabbath, just like many do today, they believe that God punishes us for not keeping the Sabbath! Or even go as far as suggesting that God has made the Sabbath a death decree if not kept.

[phkrause]

Excellent post OA,

[Tom Wetmore]

Rich,

That this has now gone on nearly 50 posts without getting off the Sabbath issue, strikes me as ironically evidence of the misplaced emphasis and confusion about the Sabbath we have in context of the question I initially raised.

I should very much like to get on with God's priority, as I suspect He would.

Does anyone have a good answer or shall we continue to discuss the Sabbath until we run out of words?

[phkrause]

Tom if I go back and read that first post or OP I should say, it was you that brought up the Sabbath in the first place.

I think you know that's exactly what would than take center stage.

Can we even guess what his priorities are, will be, or have been? For me I believe his priority is and has always been, us. The human family that he and his Son said "Lets create Man in our image."

[Naomi]

Tom,

I am not certain what you are looking for but IMO it is important to celebrate God's Sabbath in a positive manner. God made it holy; the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath. It is a holiday to rest from labor, to meditate and study God's Word. It is a time to contemplate the first four commandments and time to connect the remainder; our relationship with our fellow men.

Jesus set the example, He went to the synagogue but he also took time to do good for others. It is a time to take a break from our busy daily activities; A time to visit the lonely, the sick. If possible, to met with other real Christians.

God made the seventh day Sabbath Holy to be observed in reverence and avoidance of the traditions of man. It is the greatest gift given to mankind.

[Overaged]

Tom; over 50% of the OP here, which was made by you, dwells on the Sabbath. Is it any wonder that people are still discussing it?

I would suggest that perhaps a description of "priority" is needed right now. Do you mean what is God's priority in dealing with people; or what is his priority in what doctrine to teach us, or what?

I believe that God's priorities do not change; whether or not we are talking about Sabbath; or any other doctrine...His priority is the uplifting of fallen mankind...and it is this very principle that is at the core of all of the Adventist doctrines...

[teresaq]

fccool, Other than the first paragraph it seems the rest of your post was addressed to others. I said nothing about the "celebrating" the Sabbath.

If it doesn't "work" for you, it doesn't. :)

[teresaq]

Once it starts to sink in that they wanted to hurry and kill Jesus so they wouldn't violate the Sabbath, one realizes to a small degree what hate can do to a person.

This is coming from a person whose last couple of days are making her realize how truly far from being a Christian she is.

[teresaq]

Interesting perspective, Tom, about us bringing the test upon ourselves...