“We have an altar… outside the camp”

[jamesonofthunder]

Hebrews 13:10-13 “We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat. The high priest carries the blood… into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.”

The Miphkad altar on the Mount Olives, (see its illustration at http://redheifersbloodysweat.blogspot.com/2011/12/red-heifer.html) was the only Altar outside the “gate” of Jerusalem used for any part of the temple service. Not only is it where the Red Heifer was sacrificed, it was where the body of the 'goat for the Lord' in the atonement and all unburned sacrifices was burned. The ashes of the sacrifices that were burned at the brazen altar in the court of the temple were thrown off that bridge into the valley of the bones.

This altar is also on the same spot as the gate to the Garden of Gethsemane, which is just down the hill from the altar. When the priest flung the blood of the Red Heifer in the direction of the temple seven times, the blood would land on Gethsemane, just as Jesus’ blood landed there that night of His betrayal. The Jewish record also states that this sacrifice only occurred SEVEN times in the history of Israel, the last time being in 70AD just before the Romans destroyed both Jerusalem and the Bridge of the Red Heifer. This can’t be coincidence. The priest flung the blood seven times towards the temple, equivocally their were seven times that the sacrifice took place!

The last time the Red Heifer was sacrificed in 70 AD didn’t count, because the seventh was literally Jesus in the Garden 39 years earlier in 31 AD. He was the seventh and perfect Red Heifer sacrifice.

When the priests continued the sacrificial system after the veil was torn, the last straw was that mock Red Heifer sacrifice. God put an end to the whole system by letting Rome horribly destroy them days later.

“Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.” This is what I experienced. I met with Jesus in the Garden to witness what the disciples slumbered or slept through. I witnessed my sins being transferred to the mind of Christ and His righteousness transferred to me. I experienced the Propitiation. Then He took my sins to the cross to die with them. We get sprinkled all along the path of the Red Heifer.

Why would Paul say to "go to Him outside the camp and bear His disgrace" after He had already ascended to heaven? It's not literally to earthly Gethsemane that we go to be cleansed, it is imagining the hell Jesus went through for us that cleanses us.

"At the altar of self-sacrifice, the appointed place of meeting between God and the soul, we receive from the hand of God the celestial torch which searches the heart, revealing the need of an abiding Christ". {Review and Herald, Jan. 31, 1907}. The Miphkad Altar, is His ‘altar of self sacrifice’, where Jesus took our sins on Himself. He became sin, by entering into our hearts in the Garden.

“…Separation from His Father, the punishment for transgression and sin, was to fall upon Him in order to magnify God's law and testify to its immutability. And this was to settle forever the controversy between the Prince of God and Satan in regard to the changeless character of that law”. EGW (2nd death)

[Gibs]

Some here may not realize EGW made some good statements about this and the "red heifer", we read one,

"The Blood Applied Continually"

"For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, . . . purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:13, 14.

The sacrificial [red] heifer was conducted without the camp and slain in the most imposing manner. Thus Christ suffered without the gates of Jerusalem, for Calvary was outside the city walls. This was to show that Christ did not die for the Hebrews alone, but for all mankind. He proclaims to a fallen world that He has come to be their Redeemer and urges them to accept the salvation He offers them. The heifer having been slain in a most solemn manner, the priest, clothed in pure white garments, took the blood in his hands as it issued from the body of the victim and cast it toward the temple seven times. . . .

The body of the heifer was burned to ashes, which signified a whole and ample sacrifice. The ashes were then gathered up by a person uncontaminated by contact with the dead and placed in a vessel containing water from a running stream. This clean and pure person then took a cedar stick with scarlet cloth and a bunch of hyssop, and sprinkled the contents of the vessel upon the tent and the people assembled. This ceremony was repeated several times . . . and was done as a purification from sin.

Thus Christ, in His own spotless righteousness, after shedding His precious blood, enters into the holy place to cleanse the sanctuary. And there the crimson current is brought into the service of reconciling God to man. Some may look upon this slaying of the heifer as a meaningless ceremony, but it was done by the command of God and bears a deep significance that has not lost its application to the present time. . . .

The blood of Christ is efficacious, but it needs to be applied continually. . . .

If it was necessary in ancient times for the unclean to be purified by the blood of sprinkling, how essential for those living in the perils of the last days, and exposed to the temptations of Satan, to have the blood of Christ applied to their hearts daily. {FLB 200.6}

She reveals in other statements the heifer had to be red to symbolize His blood.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jamesonofthunder]

Yes!

I love this message. Think about it, the majority of people have little idea of the Atonement message. The Red Heifer was the key sacrifice to begin restoration. If the people had apostatized and were sent to a foreign land they could not return home until God gave the sign of a miracle birth of an all red heifer. Then they could begin rebuilding the temple/sanctuary.

[jamesonofthunder]

Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder

Yes!

I love this message. Think about it, the majority of people have little idea of the Atonement message. The Red Heifer was the key sacrifice to begin restoration. If the people had apostatized and were sent to a foreign land they could not return home until God gave the sign of a miracle birth of an all red heifer. Then they could begin rebuilding the temple/sanctuary.

SD=GE:

Had there been other female sacrifices?

Yes there was.

Leviticus 3:1

And if his oblation be a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offer it of the herd; whether it be a male or female, he shall offer it without blemish before the LORD.

Leviticus 3:6

And if his offering for a sacrifice of peace offering unto the LORD be of the flock; male or female, he shall offer it without blemish.

Leviticus 4:28

Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

[jamesonofthunder]

The Red Heifer sacrifice was special in that there was no male counterpart. It had to be female.

This is symbolic of the church being represented as a woman, but it also represents the first sin committed by Eve.

Jesus fulfilled the Red Heifer sacrifice to cleans His church from sin.

[jamesonofthunder]

Jesus left the security of heaven to save His bride from destruction. He died the woman/church's second death for us because it is demanded by the law that someone has to be separated and receive the wrath from the Father because of our sin.

by suffering the wrath of the Father for us He enters into the heart of the church. He felt the results of every evil thought and action like He did it Himself.

He literally enters into our hearts walking the extra mile in our shoes, so the Red Heifer is Jesus entering the heart of the church "outside the camp".

I believe this is the reason for all the female sacrifices, most of them have words connected like "for the common man".

All the male sacrifices are symbolic of elements of Jesus Himself. Preparing the second Adam to become the King of Kings after Atonement is complete.

He is still today in His Priestly garments making Atonement, which entailed the High Priest "carrying" the sins into the Most Holy place, feeling the pain of every sin we commit. Then He carries the sins from the Most Holy Place and places them on the head of the scape goat. Most people forget this. After Atonement He takes off the Priestly garments and puts on the garments of King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

God bless you, great questions.

(I edited this because I got the order wrong about when He puts on His robes of vengeance.)

[jamesonofthunder]

Hebrews 13:10-13 “We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat (for the common man). The high priest carries the blood… into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.”

[Gibs]

Jamesonofthunder,

Thanks for the thoughts you post and EGW has some to add to the sins placed on the head of the scape goat that I will paste here.

Folks read this one slowly and carefully.

"Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head. {SpM 2.1}

The great white cloud I saw was not the holy place, but entirely separate from the holy and most holy place, entirely separate from the sanctuary. Then the angel repeated these words, and said, "This is the time spoken of in Isaiah. He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. He had no mediator between God and man, and these plagues could be withheld no longer, for Jesus had ceased to plead for Israel, and they were covered with the covering of the Almighty God, and then they could live in the sight of a holy God, and those who were not covered, the plagues fell upon them, for they had nothing to shelter or protect them from the wrath of God." {SpM 2.3}

That covering I submit is Christ in You!

This time is closing in fast and not enough are awake to it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jamesonofthunder]

Jamesonofthunder,

Thanks for the thoughts you post and EGW has some to add to the sins placed on the head of the scape goat that I will paste here.

Folks read this one slowly and carefully.

"Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head. {SpM 2.1}

The great white cloud I saw was not the holy place, but entirely separate from the holy and most holy place, entirely separate from the sanctuary. Then the angel repeated these words, and said, "This is the time spoken of in Isaiah. He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. He had no mediator between God and man, and these plagues could be withheld no longer, for Jesus had ceased to plead for Israel, and they were covered with the covering of the Almighty God, and then they could live in the sight of a holy God, and those who were not covered, the plagues fell upon them, for they had nothing to shelter or protect them from the wrath of God." {SpM 2.3}

That covering I submit is Christ in You!

This time is closing in fast and not enough are awake to it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Very good brother, what you posted here clarified in my mind the order of events after the end of probation. I wasn't certain If Jesus changed His robes first then placed the sins on the head of the scapegoat or before He changed, but this makes more sense now. It was actually something brought to mind while writing earlier so this response is an answer to prayer.

This is how God helps me see things more clearly. If I am wrong on any particular He sends me someone like you to correct me. Thank you messenger.

I am not perfected yet but by reasoning together we will come into perfect agreement with Christ and His prophecies. Just like the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost. This also lets me know God is using you in His Spirit. Only those sent by God can have a clear understanding of the meaning of Atonement!!!

[jamesonofthunder]

"The humble worker who obediently responds to the call of God may be sure of receiving divine assistance. To accept so great and holy a responsibility is itself elevating to the character. It calls into action the highest mental and spiritual powers, and strengthens and purifies the mind and heart. Through faith in the power of God, it is wonderful how strong a weak man may become, how decided his efforts, how prolific of great results. He who begins with a little knowledge, in a humble way, and tells what he knows, while seeking diligently for further knowledge, will find the whole heavenly treasure awaiting his demand. The more he seeks to impart light, the more light he will receive. The more one tries to explain the word of God to others, with a love for souls, the plainer it becomes to himself. The more we use our knowledge and exercise our powers, the more knowledge and power we shall have." {COL 354.1}

[Gail]

It's a fascinating topic, isn't it? Adventists are talking about it everywhere one turns these days

[jamesonofthunder]

"Let a strong man be shut away from labor, and he becomes feeble. That church or those persons who shut themselves away from bearing burdens for others, who shut themselves up to themselves, will soon suffer spiritual feebleness. It is labor that keeps the strong man strong. And spiritual labor, toil, and burden-bearing, is what will give strength to the church of Christ."—Testimonies for the Church 2:22. {ChS 271.3}

[Gibs]

Jamesonofthunder,

When Jesus puts on the garments of vengeance and gets on the great white cloud, and the 7 last plagues start, I wonder if it takes about the same amount of time, 7 days for Him to get here to catch up the Saints as it does for us to get on the great white cloud and ascend to the sea of glass. But it surely can not be much difference in time.

It's maybe a little perspective of how long the Saints will be among the fallen without any intercessor. We can know it will be a time for the Saints but we know they cannot be harmed.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jamesonofthunder]

“And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness; and the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited.” [Leviticus 16:8, 21, 22.] The scape-goat came no more into the camp of Israel, and the man who led him away was required to wash himself and his clothing with water before returning to the camp. {GC88 419.2}

The whole ceremony was designed to impress the Israelites with the holiness of God and his abhorrence of sin; and, further, to show them that they could not come in contact with sin without becoming polluted. Every man was required to afflict his soul while this work of atonement was going forward. All business was to be laid aside, and the whole congregation of Israel were to spend the day in solemn humiliation before God, with prayer, fasting, and deep searching of heart." {GC88 419.3}

The Miphkad altar had a laver where the fit man washed after returning, just as the priest who killed and burned the Red Heifer did. Here again is brought to view the baptism of fire that the 144,000 will endure just as Jesus in Gethsemane without an intercessor.

[jamesonofthunder]

Jamesonofthunder,

When Jesus puts on the garments of vengeance and gets on the great white cloud, and the 7 last plagues start, I wonder if it takes about the same amount of time, 7 days for Him to get here to catch up the Saints as it does for us to get on the great white cloud and ascend to the sea of glass. But it surely can not be much difference in time.

It's maybe a little perspective of how long the Saints will be among the fallen without any intercessor. We can know it will be a time for the Saints but we know they cannot be harmed.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Good question. This same subject came up three weeks ago in bible class. The Spirit of Prophecy says it takes 7 days to return to the sea of glass, that much is known. But for Him to get here, the bible statement that there was "silence in heaven for about the space of an half hour" {Rev 8:1} is the answer to this question.

360 prophetic days divided by a half hour (day for a year principle) is "about" seven days. But does it begin at the end of probation or when Jesus leaves heaven on the cloud?

*Revelation chapter 7 begins with the holding of the 4 winds which occurred on 9/11, 2001.

*Then the last messenger angel ASCENDS from the east pleading for God to hold the 4 winds until the servants are sealed. (Gethsemane was down a steep hill to the east of Jerusalem)

*Then the sealing of the 144,000 takes place.

*Then the vast multitude are seen after hearing the loud cry and coming through Great Tribulation. All of this is in Chapter 7

*Then Revelation chapter 8 verse 1 is the end of probation where there is silence in heaven for the space of a half hour.

When Jesus leaves the most Holy place and places the sins on the head of the scape goat, he doesn't head for earth until the last plague. It took seven days for Jesus to be dressed in His priestly garments before the fulfillment of Pentecost so It probably takes seven days after probation for Him to be dressed in His robes of vengeance.

The seven last plagues probably take seven days and the last plague is Jesus coming on the clouds "with a shout" and hail falling the weight of a talent. So it probably is one 24 hour day for Him to come. The "the great and dreadful day of the LORD"

This is my understanding and I am willing to be taught.

"Before him every face turns pale, and upon those whom God has rejected, falls the blackness of despair. The righteous cry with trembling, “Who shall be able to stand?” The song of the angels ceases, and there is a period of awful silence. Then the voice of Jesus is heard, saying, “My grace is sufficient for you.” The faces of the righteous are lighted up, and joy fills every heart. And the angels strike a note higher, and sing again, as they draw still nearer to the earth. {4SP 459.1}

Isn't it interesting that the term "Silence in heaven" is also used for when Jesus was in Gethsemane?

But God suffers with His Son. Angels behold the Saviour’s agony. There is silence in Heaven. No harp is touched. Could men have viewed the amazement of the angelic host as in silent grief they watched the Father separating His beams of light, love, and glory from His beloved Son, they would better understand how offensive in His sight is sin. {SJ 105.4}

[Gibs]

We know His reward is with Him when He comes and here is where the books are opened and another book is opened, That another book appears to be the Lambs Book of life so this must be the scene of removing that seventh seal of Rev. 8:1

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Things were revealed as each seal was removed and this is a scroll written on both sides but the inside can't be seen until that last one is taken off.

I find your see of this above very well seen, will have to work on it more in the old noggin.

Then there is quite a discussion to be had as to when these trumpets play out in relation to the Last Seven Plagues. There may have been a discussion here on that or maybe on an other forum I was on. But according to these verses here is a good indication.

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I believe some teach these are the same thing as the 7 last and I don't buy that at least at this time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jamesonofthunder]

We know His reward is with Him when He comes and here is where the books are opened and another book is opened, That another book appears to be the Lambs Book of life so this must be the scene of removing that seventh seal of Rev. 8:1

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Things were revealed as each seal was removed and this is a scroll written on both sides but the inside can't be seen until that last one is taken off.

I find your see of this above very well seen, will have to work on it more in the old noggin.

Then there is quite a discussion to be had as to when these trumpets play out in relation to the Last Seven Plagues. There may have been a discussion here on that or maybe on an other forum I was on. But according to these verses here is a good indication.

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I believe some teach these are the same thing as the 7 last and I don't buy that at least at this time.

This is how I've been shown how to read this tricky passage of Chapter 8.

It is almost as if Verse 1 belongs at the end of chapter 7, but after staring in verse 2, begins The seven trumps scene showing Jesus mediating for us and ending at the second coming.

Verse five is showing what will happen at the end of time by this angel (Jesus in the Most Holy place)throws down the censor at the end of probation.

But after showing this end time scene, it backtracks and shows the trumpets in order while Jesus is still in the Holy place.

So in essence if you want to read it linearly you have to remove verse five in context to linearity. It belongs in the future from the trumpets. But because this same angel in the future context will one day throw down the censor, it is shown here.

You are right not to believe verse 6 and 7 are the 7 last plagues because of the symbolic language used. These warnings or trumpets mostly are historically fulfilled, we now are in the sixth trumpet waiting for the seventh.

We see the beginning of the ministration of Jesus in the Holy place, then the trumps fast forward to see what will happen after each of the trumpets. The first trumpet was 70AD when Jerusalem fell, immediately after they offered a false Red Heifer sacrifice.

You have to look at Revelation under the structure of repeat and enlarge.

I have seen several very good studies by Tye Gibson and James Rafferty from 3 ABN about the trumps. Excellent and very in depth actually.

Here is a link to a new sermon from James Rafferty who has this subject down pat. In fact if you like it is part of a series. Their website is powerful in Spiritual offerings.

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=664

God bless you Brother.

[Gibs]

James,

I lean to the idea that the casting of the coals of fire of the altar cast into the earth to be the signal to the trumpet angels to begin their trumpets, plagues. I believe they are the first 7 plagues and inference is made in verse one of chap. 15:, of the "last",

Re 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The first four get progessively stronger and the last three are "woes".

Verse 9:20 after the sixth trumpet makes it clear the trumpets are plagues,

Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

That verse above also shows that repentance could probably be done. I doubt that being the case in the seven last plagues.

Just some thoughts and reasoning of the words given us on the subject.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jamesonofthunder]

I wish this form of communication was more fulfilling personally, you know? I love to witness people give more detailed reasonings behind what they believe in person, because men can be more detailed in their descriptions then.

I do love your reasoning for what you believe.

But check this out and test this reasoning OK?

Notice how in the Trumps only a third of everything is destroyed? This shows the judgments pronounced in mercy in these different historical moments in time.

Notice also how in the sixth trump, the angel with the sealed book offers it to His people in the person of John in vision and it was eaten up. Sweat to the tongue but bitter to the belly. This is the advent movement, the unsealing of the book of Daniel, the foundation of the Seventh Day Adventist Church which movement began in 1834-44 by William Miller.

In the same trump the two witnesses are killed which the Spirit of Prophecy says is depicting the French Revolution.

Also check out what Mrs. White said about this exact text we are discussing, Rev 8;3.

"in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in heaven, he beheld there... an angel “having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.” Revelation 8:3. Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in heaven;

If this vision was Jesus in the HOLY Place then it couldn't be the point in the future when He throws down the censer and says "Let them that are wicked be wicked still..." It must be when He entered into the Holy place, setting the stage for the destruction of Jerusalem...The first trump.

If you are interested, I have a lot more support for this. I LOVE the subject of the Golden Censer.

Please listen to this series by James Rafferty. It is a very good study On the seven trumps and the structure of Revelation in General.

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=728

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=730

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=731

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=732

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=733

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=734

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=735

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=736

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=737

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=738

Related;

"The work of God is to be carried on to completion by the co-operation of divine and human agencies. Those who are self-sufficient may be apparently active in the work of God; but if they are prayerless, their activity is of no avail. Could they look into the censer of the angel that stands at the golden altar before the rainbow-circled throne, they would see that the merit of Jesus must be mingled with our prayers and efforts, or they are as worthless as was the offering of Cain. Could we see all the activity of human instrumentality, as it appears before God, we would see that only the work accomplished by much prayer, which is sanctified by the merit of Christ, will stand the test of the judgment. When the grand review shall take place, then shall ye return and discern between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not."—The Review and Herald, July 4, 1893. {ChS 263.2}

[Gail]

I like James Rafferty a lot!! :)

[jamesonofthunder]

I like James Rafferty a lot!!

Then you have to check out his website, so much awesome information. I love their ministry, just as much as I love Amazing Facts, Stephen Bohr, and a lot of what is posted on the G,Y,C site.

Peace in the name of Christ.

[Gail]

I have Light Bearers bookmarked, plus the GYC site and audioverse. There's a lot of great stuff on all of those

[jamesonofthunder]

I have Light Bearers bookmarked, plus the GYC site and audioverse. There's a lot of great stuff on all of those

Good woman... (In respect)

[Gibs]

Jamesonofthunder,

I have to part ways with all historicists on the trumpets. I am not a historic believer on several prophecies when it comes to that. You may call me a realist as that is what I stand for.

I tried for a while to listen to James J. but he don't feed me fast enough, I can't stay with him till he gets to any point he wants to make. I've heard the discussions for the historic view in the past and I doubt it they have changed much.

I find the time of a prophecy is one hermeneutic that is left out in discerning prophecies and is not recognized as one of it's laws, hermeneutics.

I will make no fuss as to my view at present as it has been several years since I ironed it out but at a later date I may post my view and you will be welcome to comment.

However I do know it won't be long we will all know for sure.

His Blessings.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

We know His reward is with Him when He comes and here is where the books are opened and another book is opened, That another book appears to be the Lambs Book of life so this must be the scene of removing that seventh seal of Rev. 8:1

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Things were revealed as each seal was removed and this is a scroll written on both sides but the inside can't be seen until that last one is taken off.

I find your see of this above very well seen, will have to work on it more in the old noggin.

Then there is quite a discussion to be had as to when these trumpets play out in relation to the Last Seven Plagues. There may have been a discussion here on that or maybe on an other forum I was on. But according to these verses here is a good indication.

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I believe some teach these are the same thing as the 7 last and I don't buy that at least at this time.

This is how I've been shown how to read this tricky passage of Chapter 8.

It is almost as if Verse 1 belongs at the end of chapter 7, but after staring in verse 2, begins The seven trumps scene showing Jesus mediating for us and ending at the second coming.

Verse five is showing what will happen at the end of time by this angel (Jesus in the Most Holy place)throws down the censor at the end of probation.

But after showing this end time scene, it backtracks and shows the trumpets in order while Jesus is still in the Holy place.

So in essence if you want to read it linearly you have to remove verse five in context to linearity. It belongs in the future from the trumpets. But because this same angel in the future context will one day throw down the censor, it is shown here.

You are right not to believe verse 6 and 7 are the 7 last plagues because of the symbolic language used. These warnings or trumpets mostly are historically fulfilled, we now are in the sixth trumpet waiting for the seventh.

We see the beginning of the ministration of Jesus in the Holy place, then the trumps fast forward to see what will happen after each of the trumpets. The first trumpet was 70AD when Jerusalem fell, immediately after they offered a false Red Heifer sacrifice.

You have to look at Revelation under the structure of repeat and enlarge.

I have seen several very good studies by Tye Gibson and James Rafferty from 3 ABN about the trumps. Excellent and very in depth actually.

Here is a link to a new sermon from James Rafferty who has this subject down pat. In fact if you like it is part of a series. Their website is powerful in Spiritual offerings.

http://www.lbm.org/media/?media=664

God bless you Brother.

Just because the censer is thrown down to earth in Rev 8:5 does not mean it is the close of probation. It is dealing with the ministry in the holy place and the daily which the little horn took away. People were praying to dead saints. The censer has to do with prayer