Robert Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 So quit putting words in Jesus' mouth, that He never EVER said. Jesus isn't about selfishness...hording wealth. Read your NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think Jesus definitely supported some forms of socialism. Capitalism works because it is based on selfishness and we live in a selfish, sin-cursed world. I think it is noble of us to try to mix as much socialism into our society as will work. We have seen many socialistic countries fail so we know too much socialism will not work. However a purely capitalistic society will be nothing less than evil. So our goal needs to be to work toward that healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. I think that is what Jesus wants us to do. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think Jesus definitely supported some forms of socialism. Capitalism works because it is based on selfishness and we live in a selfish, sin-cursed world. I think it is noble of us to try to mix as much socialism into our society as will work. We have seen many socialistic countries fail so we know too much socialism will not work. However a purely capitalistic society will be nothing less than evil. So our goal needs to be to work toward that healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. I think that is what Jesus wants us to do. Jesus did not look to socialism. Socialism is the confiscating from one and deciding to give it to others. Jesus spoke of paying your taxes,He spoke many times of voluntary charity,never confusing or mixing the two Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Clearly Jesus supported socialism. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. (Acts 4:34-37) All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. (Acts 2:44-45) Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it. (Acts 5:1-5) Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 17, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 17, 2012 The claim that Caesar kept taxes rather than spending them on services and indeed on food for the poor shows real ignorance of history. Would be good if facts were checked rather than made up. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 17, 2012 Members Share Posted January 17, 2012 Good points Shane, or should I say passages. This is an interesting system, originally God setup the Jubilee and the Sabbatical systems to show the people around Israel how to take care of there land and families. Obviously Israel didn't do either after a while. Looks like Jesus was trying to reinstitute that in a different way. Wonder how long that lasted after Jesus went back to heaven. I do know that in Israel today, in certain areas, they've started going back to the sabbatical system for the land. I heard that its doing really well. I'm pretty sure that they are aware of the Jubilee, but greed is a great incentive not to. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think Jesus definitely supported some forms of socialism. Capitalism works because it is based on selfishness and we live in a selfish, sin-cursed world. I think it is noble of us to try to mix as much socialism into our society as will work. We have seen many socialistic countries fail so we know too much socialism will not work. However a purely capitalistic society will be nothing less than evil. So our goal needs to be to work toward that healthy mix of socialism and capitalism. I think that is what Jesus wants us to do. Wow, I'm impressed, Shane. You've hit the nail squarely on the head! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Quote: Clearly Jesus supported socialism. Supporting christian behavior is not the same thing as government socialism.More and more do want the government to be their "christian" conscience and claim it is Christ supported socialism. Hang on,in the future government will take over more and more Christian behavior and determine for you exactly what Christ meant. Quote: There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. There was a Levite, a native of Cyprus, Joseph, to whom the apostles gave the name Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”). He sold a field that belonged to him, then brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.(Acts 4:34-37) Posting biblical quotes is very easy and very meaningless. Has your home church,led by you,sold all possessions and goods and given all in common?It is pretty safe to say you have more than your actual needs.Just as safe to say there are those in your church that believe they have less than they need.You have mentioned "your portfolio" a number of times as well as your yearly income. Do the rest of your fellow church members share equally in that? Quote: Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, and kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down and gave up the ghost: and great fear came upon all that heard it. (Acts 5:1-5) As we are obviously dealing with two entirely different "inspired scripture" there isn't much point to even discussing it.It does sound as if there are those here that have your copy and will be happy to point out,and chat about the evils of those that have a different version of scripture. Mine says something quite different. Ananias and Sapphira did not die because of their lack of support for socialism and as a warning and example to instill great fear for not voluntarily supporting government forced socialism. Ananias, with Sapphira lied.They were not forced to sell.They died ,not because they lied to men,but they lied to God. There really isn't much more to say to anyone that says,"Here this is what it says,I am not doing it until the government forces me,but you better" Nor between those reading to different books. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Ananias, with Sapphira lied. They were not forced to sell. They died ,not because they lied to men,but they lied to God. I've lied to God and didn't die....I said I would do such and such and I didn't. I'm still here; God didn't smite me! Acts 5:1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet. Now let's drop back to Acts 4:34 There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need. Notice, they brought the money from the sales. They didn't keep part of it. Why? "They had all things in common" You can't have all things in common if you keep part of it back for yourself. Ananias & Sapphira reintroduced the principle of self-love in a church that was experiencing pure, agape love. And to add insult to injury they lied about it: Acts 15:2 He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. 3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? (Notice agape was gone) You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. Now, the part that brings controversy: 4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. Agape did not come at the point of a gun! Agape came by the Holy Spirit to a group of believers who where resting in Christ. What Ananias & Sapphira did was to pretend like they had agape, when what they were presenting was iniquity (the love of self). In other words they died because they were being self-righteous - they were pretending to do agape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 This is good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Posting biblical quotes is very easy and very meaningless. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Quote: You can't have all things in common if you keep part of it back for yourself. Ananias & Sapphira reintroduced the principle of self-love in a church that was experiencing pure, agape love. And to add insult to injury they lied about it: Nothing is stopping you from leading the way with a church that experiences pure agape love. Quote: Now, the part that brings controversy: Quote: Agape did not come at the point of a gun! Agape came by the Holy Spirit to a group of believers who where resting in Christ. Really? Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God. Looks to me like you don't except this voluntarily ,Your Dead. Quote: What Ananias & Sapphira did was to pretend like they had agape, when what they were presenting was iniquity (the love of self). In other words they died because they were being self-righteous - they were pretending to do agape. Many people are self righteous and far more pretend agape,usually for the other guy to have.They are not struck dead.Many people want others to walk their talk for them. Personally,I find the statement Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God. the most disturbing I have seen by anyone.It is truly disturbing if actually believed and even more so if said for the reasons I suspect. So far there isn't anything stopping those that believe we should have all things in common from stepping out and living the faith they claim.Wouldn't influence everyone but should not prevent a person from living his faith in distributing equally what they have among those that have less,leaving only the same equal portion for themselves.Don't even need a church to allow someone to do what they believe God commands. Liberals in general don't want the slightest mention of God where it might be heard outside of church or home.We should and so far have had separation of church and state.Now we equate taxation and christian giving as one in the same. SDA's it seems want the government to force their hand in following what they believe is God's command.That will be done in time,yet somehow it appears that there are those that think they will be able to say,"Hey wait a minute,we only wanted this much socialism and it is enough now. Some of you believe that if you are poor others should pay their way,condemning those that have a different opinion. I was told my husband and I were lacking as parents because we did not believe others should pay for higher education for our sons when we could not. For me,and I know I run the risk of my motives being judged,realize when I say we it is not meant as all about me,but the many that do not demand others do for them what they can do for themselves. Might be hard and take awhile but what someone else has is not mine to demand.It is not mine or God will execute whoever refuses. I have little belief in the professed faith of those that do not put that into practice.The quoting of texts to prove God will strike those dead that do not embrace "government socialism" means nothing except a ability to paste and copy,and treat the story like silly putty.Stretching and pulling till it looks right to make oneself appear righteous before others. Always demanding higher taxes from the other guy for charity says a lot about personal views on christian charity.Especially when there is a lack of sharing ones own possessions in common.The possibilities and opportunities are endless to do just that. I don't recognize the bible being used here so will leave those that believe Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God. to their own book on this. I find it truly a disgusting thought that God says you don't do this willingly,bam you are dead. Makes the word willingly rather silly doesn't it? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God.Looks to me like you don't except this voluntarily ,Your Dead. That is exactly right. Those that have a problem with socialism need to prepare themselves for the fires of hell because that is where they are headed. Heaven will be socialistic just as the Apostolic church was. Socialism doesn't work on a grand scale in a civil government application because civil governments govern over populations as a whole and not just over those with converted hearts. The majority of the public, and even many in the church, are selfish. Thus capitalism must be the basis of our economy and we can only introduce socialism in a small degree. But we shouldn't view socialism as some sort of evil. It isn't. It is a good thing and the only reason it doesn't work on a grand scale is because we, as a people, are evil. Socialism is God's way and what we will find in heaven. So when we go to campmeeting and here the little children singing "Heaven is a wonderful place, filled with glory and grace, I want to see my Savior's face, heaven is a wonderful place." we should keep in mind they are singing about a socialistic utopia. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I do not find the Bible meaningless. It provides direction for me in my life. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Obama is more than willing to accommodate those that want more and more from others. Indeed he has a good heart. I don't question that. He is a fine man and a wonderful example of what a man should be for our youth. But he is a terribly ineffective leader. He can't get people that agree with him to agree with him. I don't think he will be able to pass laws to accommodate anyone. He has a record of failure and I don't see that changing. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God You have to look at the circucmstances. Agape, for the first time recorded in the Bible, was being experienced by believers. Ananias & Sapphira brought the love of self back into the equation. God removed Himself from their lives and they died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Originally Posted By: bonnie Those that didn't want to accept socialism were executed by God You have to look at the circucmstances. Agape, for the first time recorded in the Bible, was being experienced by believers. Ananias & Sapphira brought the love of self back into the equation. God removed Himself from their lives and they died. I have,we still have two different books. They were not killed over socialism and their lack of supporting it Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Indeed he has a good heart. I don't question that. He is a fine man and a wonderful example of what a man should be for our youth. But he is a terribly ineffective leader. He can't get people that agree with him to agree with him. I don't think he will be able to pass laws to accommodate anyone. He has a record of failure and I don't see that changing. We have a different definition of honorable and what a wonderful exanple is. Obama did indeed show his honor and character during his campaign. He has not beeen ineffective,in fact very effective for laying the groundwork and getting much simply by force such as his health care.Give him time and he will show you how effective he can be. His actions bear a striking resemblence to Peter,not in importance as to who he betrayed.Only Peter redeemed himself.Obama sepnt 20 years listening to this hate filled garbage being spewed.Subjected his two young daughters to that and said, I could never deny him,he is my spiritual mentor,then why I never heard a word of that,(must have been in a coma)then OOps,wait a minute,I am out of here, never knew him. I don't care what faith he is or if any.I do care he denied that faith when the polls showed he had better. Wonder if his daughters heard that and wondered why the lies. We have different ideas on honor. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 He showed the honor and heart you admire again when he voted against the live baby protection bill.This is not about abortion one way or another.It is about voting against the same comfort care we give a pet when they need to be put down. Anyone that can do that for any reason is not the type exhibiting the honorable qualities I want my children to admire. I don't admire the qualities that allow a phoney performace when the camera starts to role.Obama was so choked with rage he could barely speak over the injustice of bonuses.Only problem with that it was not true.It was part of the stimulous and he knew about it.Didn't make him angry until he located a camera. He has done many things since appearing to have the honor and integrity you admire.Your choice. While these incidences are not gigantic examples of terrible national decisions,they go right to the heart of a man.He didn't seem to mind that as he fanned the flames with honor,the families of the recipients were being terrorized by bused in thugs. I am sure if he thinks about it or even knows the story he will he would be delighted to know he has the backing of "some" SDA christians among them that are in favor of God executing for lack of supporting socialism.He can use that with the "let no crisis go to waste" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I certainly cannot say anything wrong about the character of Barak Obama. He is a fine man and head and shoulders above McCain the adulterer. I can't regret voting for Obama. We certainly didn't need another adulterer in the White House. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I certainly cannot say anything wrong about the character of Barak Obama. He is a fine man and head and shoulders above McCain the adulterer. I can't regret voting for Obama. We certainly didn't need another adulterer in the White House. You are entitled to your opinion,any man that denies his faith has no faith at all.He is not required to unless he claims it. While you may have proof that Gingrich is a present adulterer I don't. I do have the proof I need that says in God's eyes that is not under consideration unless his personal life is a sham at present. I am glad that I attend a church that does not operate under your "christian"standards. We have had some pretty surprising acts by members in the past.Thanfully the members,members of the board did not understand "remember what you did,Ha Ha" as part of the forgivness process.What do they know,it is generally a conservative church Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 They were not killed over socialism and their lack of supporting it They died because they openly and knowingly chose sides with the enemy of God's love, Lucifer. Therefore God removed Himself from their lives. Ananias & Sapphira lied about their intentions. Why? To look good...to resemble God's agape love, but they kept a portion for themselves. Before that point God's people were practicing Biblical Socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Originally Posted By: bonnie They were not killed over socialism and their lack of supporting it They died because they openly and knowingly chose sides with the enemy of God's love, Lucifer. Therefore God removed Himself from their lives. Ananias & Sapphira lied about their intentions. Why? To look good...to resemble God's agape love, but they kept a portion for themselves. Before that point God's people were practicing Biblical Socialism. Thanks,but I have no interest your explanation,it does not match the biblical explanation. I have zero interest in those that preach what others are to do. Nor do I have any interest in those that preach what others are to do and then tell those they don't even know their works are inquity.That pursumes the one leveleing the accusation has placed himself on the level of God and knows the heart of another. You have those here that you have "all things in common" with.Those that believe God executes those that do not subscribe to socilaism. You can bat that around with them. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 any man that denies his faith has no faith at all. I don't have a test of faith for my political candidates. Obama belonged to a church that was highly involved in the community and did a lot of good. Despite what Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh have said, Obama joined the church so that he could contribute to the community. That is admirable. Obama could have taken a job at a high-paying law firm but took a job as a community organizer. That is fine and shining character. Nwet Gingrich was forced out of Congress due to ethics violations. He divorced one wife while she was being treated for cancer and divorced the next wife just after she was diagnosed with MS. Let's hope his current wife's health holds up. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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