Does the Sabbath Doctrine Diminish the Gospel?

[Stan Laurel]

You're absolutely correct, Bob. There is no command to worship on Sunday. As I said in that other thread, it's a tradition, not a requirement.

Stan

[Robert]

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The perpetual True Rest was to be daily, or Today, as Hebrews 4 says.

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That's twisting....

[Gerr]

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Because Christ commanded it:

Mark 10:39 "...Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with,"

Show me a command by Jesus for us to keep the Sabbath under the new covenant not something he did as a Jew under the law of the 1st Covenant because he observed the temple celebrations with his parents also.

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[:"blue"]Then show me a new covenant command that says we can break what Jesus Himself already previously commanded!!! If Christ had in any way shape or form taught that the 4th c was no longer binding while He was still alive, why then did the women who followed Him closely, "rested on the Sabbath ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT" after He died?

You have already acknowledged that the reason Jesus did not mention the first four commandments to the young man we because there was a different plague spot in his soul. So in the NT, the issue was NOT whether to keep or not keep the Sabbath. The issue as Jesus pointed out was HOW they kept it. [/]

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The last sentence of yours, shows how you feel about Christ's blood vs the Sabbath. The symbol of his blood is commanded of us to drink till we meet him again, the Sabbath is a greater symbol than that of our salvation?

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[:"blue"]On the contrary, Bob, the Sabbath is a weekly reminder & testimony by the Sabbath-keeper that only God can make him holy. How is that done? By the blood of Jesus alone!!! It is faith in the shed blood of Christ that sanctifies!!! So, by keeping the Sabbath, I am telling you that I believe in the shed blood of Jesus as my only hope for salvation.

It is sheer folly to "profess to know God, but in works ...deny Him, being abominable, disobedient...." Tit 1:16 NKJ.[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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The issue of the Sabbath was finding rest. When the Jews were delivered from Egypt, they were slaves and overworked. The 4th Commandment was for them and their generations, not non-Jewish.

Christ when he came offered this:

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Matthew 11:28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

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The Sabbath was a shadow of His rest offered by the Gospel.

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[:"blue"]We have already gone round & round over this issue. The 7th day Sab is no more Jewish than the division of time into weeks, months, & years. When Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, what part of "man" is it that you don't understand? You have swallowed the rabbinic teaching that only the Noahide laws are applicalbe to non-Jews. Have you also swallowed their teaching that Christians are not men? [/]

Gerry

[Bob Sands]

I quoted from John Gill's commentary above, hardly a Jewish source, that indicated that Non-Jews were considered dogs not man when this was written. The Sabbath nowhere was indicated as for all mankind. You saying it over and over, Don't make it so!!!!

[Bob Sands]

http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/mark/gill/mark2.htm

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By "man," is not meant all mankind; for the sabbath was never appointed for all mankind, nor binding upon all; only the Jews, who are emphatically called "man," or "men"; see Ezekiel 34:30, upon which the Jewish writers remark {o}, that "they are called, Mda, "man"; but the idolatrous Gentiles, and nations of the World, are not called 'men';" but dogs, beasts, &c. Our Lord may here be thought to speak in their language, as he does in Mt. 15:26, See Gill on "Mt 15:26." And that the observation of the seventh day, was only designed for the children of Israel, seems manifest from Exodus 31:16, "wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant; it is a sign between me and the children of Israel"; and not between him and the rest of the world: and in Exodus 31:14, "ye shall keep the sabbath, for it is holy unto you": on which the Jews {p} make this remark, Nymme ravl alw Mkl, "to you, and not to the rest of the nations": nor did they ever think that the Gentiles were obliged to observe their sabbath, only such who became proselytes to their religion; even those who were proselytes of righteousness: for a proselyte of the gate, was not bound to observe it; for so says {q} Maimonides, "those who take upon them the seven commandments of Noah only, lo! they are as a proselyte of the gate, and they are free to do work on the sabbath day for themselves, openly, as an Israelite on a common day."

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[bonnierose333]

I don't know...my Bible says the Sabbath is to be observed throughout the generations and that it's sacred to The Lord. This indicates to me that God places much importance on the Sabbath. Anything so weighty to God, certainly wouldn't belittle or diminish Christianity!!!

[Gerr]

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I quoted from John Gill's commentary above, hardly a Jewish source, that indicated that Non-Jews were considered dogs not man when this was written. The Sabbath nowhere was indicated as for all mankind. You saying it over and over, Don't make it so!!!!

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[:"blue"]Does/did Jesus consider Gentiles dogs? Do you then believe the Jewish prejudice that Gentiles are dogs?

John Gill is NOT my authority on faith & moral practice. The Bible is. Soooooooo, no matter how many times you quote Gill, it carries no weight for me.

So the question remains: When Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, what part of "man" don't you understand? Why do you insist "man" means Jews only? Where is your BIBLICAL authority for this doctrine? [/]

Gerry

[Bob Sands]

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While this may appear reasonable on the surface, this explanation is not a proper one. God entered into an "everlasting" (olam) circumcision covenant with Abraham as a standard of holiness, but we are told that the "everlasting" covenant only lasted until the time of the apostles, according to the New Testament revelation - Gal.5:6. The fact is, God has entered into various olam associations with individuals or nations on this earth, but in no sense were the olam agreements intended to last for all eternity. They are all governed by "beginnings" and "ends."

http://www.ocis.net/~rmckay/forever.html

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[Gerr]

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I don't know...my Bible says the Sabbath is to be observed throughout the generations and that it's sacred to The Lord. This indicates to me that God places much importance on the Sabbath. Anything so weighty to God, certainly wouldn't belittle or diminish Christianity!!!

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[:"blue"] I think you meant this reply to Mr. Sands. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/mark/gill/mark2.htm

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By "man," is not meant all mankind; for the sabbath was never appointed for all mankind, nor binding upon all; only the Jews, who are emphatically called "man," or "men"; see Ezekiel 34:30, upon which the Jewish writers remark {o}, that "they are called, Mda, "man"; but the idolatrous Gentiles, and nations of the World, are not called 'men';" but dogs, beasts, &c.

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[:"blue"]Therefore, by your theology, when Paul says, "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men....." Tit 2:11 NASB, he must be saying that grace & salvation is only for Jews? [/]

Gerry

[Bob Sands]

Gerry, you don't read context. Under the new (2nd) covenant which Titus 2:11 was under, the concept of the Gentile dog was no more.

I think your problem is, you believe there was a consistent environment since Creation to the present. You don't have to read too far in the Bible to realize that that is not the case. People were selected for special purposes, and removed from positions when they ignored or did not believe in God. King Saul is a good example, and the nation of Israel is another.

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Gal 2:15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

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[Stan Laurel]

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I don't know...my Bible says the Sabbath is to be observed throughout the generations and that it's sacred to The Lord. This indicates to me that God places much importance on the Sabbath. Anything so weighty to God, certainly wouldn't belittle or diminish Christianity!!!

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Quite right, Bonnierose! That was commanded of the Jews. And they still, after all these many generations, observe it. Are you Jewish?

At the risk of being redundant, can you or anyone here show me where gentiles are commanded to keep the Sabbath? Chapter and verse, please. Jesus didn't. The Apostles didn't. How were the gentiles expected to keep the sabbath when no one ever told them they had to?

Stan

[Gerr]

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Gerry, you don't read context. Under the new (2nd) covenant which Titus 2:11 was under, the concept of the Gentile dog was no more.

I think your problem is, you believe there was a consistent environment since Creation to the present. You don't have to read too far in the Bible to realize that that is not the case. People were selected for special purposes, and removed from positions when they ignored or did not believe in God. King Saul is a good example, and the nation of Israel is another.

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Gal 2:15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

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[:"blue"]The environment has changed, but God's moral requirement IS CONSTANT!!! God is JUST!!! If God's moral requirement changes with the times, then we should also advocate abortion ad lib, same sex marriages, etc. because the climate of our times demand it.

And how were the Israelites saved? By the law? Where is the doctrine of salvation by faith derived from? See Gen 15:6, Hab 2:4, Heb 11. [/]

Gerry

[Ron Lambert]

The fourth commandment is not worded like something new just for the Jews is being instituted. It says "REMEMBER," then gives as the reason the commemoration of Creation, which establishes God's authority to give these commandments, because He is the Creator. Without the Sabbath commandment, there is no seal of authority in the Law. But the appeal is to remember something that was instituted at the end of Creaton Week, when there were no Jews yet.

[Bob Sands]

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Deut 5:12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.

15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

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This is pretty specific to a select group, even in Exodus 20 as a preambel it says:

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Exodus 20: 1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

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If this isn't specific enough, realizing the 1st covenant included the Decalogue, notice this:

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Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

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[Robert]

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Deut 5:12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.

15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

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The quote from the above law supercedes the one in Ex 20 for it was destroyed:

• Ex 32:19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

  34:1 The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke....

  verse 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Moses repeats the law in Deut 5:6-21....Only this time the reason to keep the Sabbath had changed.

[Bob Sands]

Your point?

[Stan Laurel]

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The fourth commandment is not worded like something new just for the Jews is being instituted. It says "REMEMBER," then gives as the reason the commemoration of Creation, which establishes God's authority to give these commandments, because He is the Creator.

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Hmmm... Interesting point, Ron. But I think you are confusing the Sabbath itself with the observance of the Sabbath. You are quite correct that the word "remember" indicates something the listener (or reader) should already be aware of. But notice that the 4th commandment says to remember the Sabbath, not remember the observance of the Sabbath. That the Israelites at Sinai were expected to know what the Sabbath was, does not necessarily indicate that they knew what was required in observance. And if we read further (again looking at the context rather than just a word or phrase) we see that the observance is explained in detail. You shall rest on the Sabbath, in it you shall do no work. (paraphrased) This explanation would be totally unnecessary if they already knew how to observe it.

Notice some of the other commandments: Thou shall not kill. Period. No explanation needed. Thou shall not commit adultery. Period. No explanation needed. The existence of the explanation for the 4th commandment indicates that they did not already know that they were to do no work.

Notice that I said "indicates." I would submit that this does not prove my case. But the indication is enough, I think, that if you insist that they keep the Sabbath previously, some evidence is required. Like where is the command to keep the Sabbath given previous to Sinai?

You also claim that the wording doesn't include just the Jews. This doesn't make sense to me. If you tell your wife to remember to pick up the dry cleaning, is there anything in that sentence that indicates that it applies to anyone other than the person to whom you're talking? The 10 Commandments were the Lord's covenant with His chosen people. There is no indication that they applied to everyone else. Were all nations the chosen ones? I think not.

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Without the Sabbath commandment, there is no seal of authority in the Law.

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This is patently absurd, sir. Read each of the Commandments separately. Each is perfectly valid without the others. I see nothing to indicate that the others lack the authority of God without the 4th.

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But the appeal is to remember something that was instituted at the end of Creaton Week, when there were no Jews yet.

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Quite correct sir. But once again we're confusing the Sabbath with its observation. The Jews observe the Sabbath as a commemoration of God's creation. But the command to observe it wasn't given until Sinai. (Unless you can show otherwise. Chapter and verse, please.)

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Stan

[Ron Lambert]

Robert, the Law given on Mt. Sinai was never superceded. Moses broke the tablets when he saw the idolatry of the people. But then God had him cut out two more tables of stone, and God wrote on them the same thing He had before. What you quote in Deuteronomy is an elaboration written by Moses, not by the finger of God.

[Ron Lambert]

Stan Laurel, come on, you are really splitting hairs when you try to differentiate between remembering the Sabbath and remembering to observe the Sabbath.

When you read the various commandments, how do you know they were not written by Hammurabi or someone else? Only the fourth commandment announces the grounds on which the lawgiver has authority to issue this law. This is in keeping with the ancient model of the Suzereignty Covenant, where a King (usually on being enthroned) issues a covenant of laws binding him to his people. There was always a "seal" by which the king himself is acknowleged as rightful ruler and lawgiver. It gives his name, title, extent of his domain, and right by which he claims dominion. The fourth commandment has all of these, and is the only commandment that does. Thus the Sabbath commandment is the seal of God's Law.

Your demand for an explicit command to keep the Sabbath is unreasonable. There is no such command given in Genesis not to commit murder, either, but it is clear that Cain was judged guilty of the sin of murder. The inescapable fact is that God made the Sabbath on the seventh day of Creation week, and He gave it to man--not just the Jews. What does "made for" mean, if man was not to follow God's example and rest on the day? This is so obvious and straightforward, it is frankly amazing that anyone would even try to suggest there was any question whether Adam and Eve were expected to keep the Sabbath.

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Does the Sabbath Doctrine Diminish the Gospel?

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Of course not, silly.

[Robert]

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Robert, the Law given on Mt. Sinai was never superceded. Moses broke the tablets when he saw the idolatry of the people. But then God had him cut out two more tables of stone, and God wrote on them the same thing He had before. What you quote in Deuteronomy is an elaboration written by Moses, not by the finger of God.

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Okay, I am open for this if you can prove what you say....To me it looks like the Sabbath commandment reads different.

[Gerr]

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Deut 5:12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.

15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

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This is pretty specific to a select group, even in Exodus 20 as a preambel it says:

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Exodus 20: 1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

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If this isn't specific enough, realizing the 1st covenant included the Decalogue, notice this:

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Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

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[:"blue"]He also said this:

[:"red"]"And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. ONE LAW SHALL BE FOR THE NATIVE-BORN AND FOR THE STRANGER WHO DWELLS AMONG YOU." Ex 12:48,49 NKJ. [/]

A person who becomes a Presbyterian does so because he/she believes what that church teach.

Ditto Baptists, Adventists, etc.

No different when a Gentile becomes a believer in the God of the Israelite.

If you have this mathematical progression, 1,3,5, what would the next number be?

And since you have this theological progression: ONE God. ONE Lord. ONE faith. ONE baptism. ONE Father of us all. ONE body of believers. ONE family. Saved by only ONE Name. Indwelt by the ONE Spirit. Eat of the ONE Loaf. Have ONE head, Jesus Christ. Obey ___ law? What would the next number be? [/]

Gerry

[bonnierose333]

Well Stan,

I don't know who said what to whom but Deuteronomy 5:12, says "Observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you." And then, there's verse 13: "Six days you shall labor and do all your work. (14) But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God: in it you shall not do any work, etc..... (15)...; therefore, the Lord your God commanded you to observe and take heed to the Sabbath day." A commandment, 'tis a commandment...hey???