‎"Sin forsaken is one of the best evidences of sin forgiven."

[olger]

Got this from John Piper today. You like it? I DO.

g

[Gibs]

For sure I like, as that is a truism. Also "sin forsaken is one of the best evidences of true conversion" that one is truly dead of the old critter.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

A worthy goal, but it could be a bit misleading. The closer I get to Jesus, the more character flaws are revealed. While this kind of "sin" may not be readily apparent, I know it's there. I'm also reminded of Peter, Sister White says the moment of his conversion followed his denial of Christ three times. And yet, he still made some serious mistakes, his character not yet perfected. It's a lifetime of work, I do feel the Spirit working in my life and I am learning to rejoice when I fall (again,,, and yet again) because it's an opportunity to see where I need to grow. I also rejoice over the message of righteouness by faith, because when I compare my character to His, I see it's my only hope. As I stagger toward the goal... :)

[cheddar]

It takes a lifetime of work to learn that salvation is a free gift.

How do you work for something that is FREE?

The great sin of Babylon is that she has made merchandise out of salvation which was bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Most Christians have renounced the world and the love of money only to graduate to the higher sin of worshipping their self-righteousness.

[Gibs]

It is not free if one continues in sin, that forfeits the promise.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Sister White never had a problem with the apparently conflicting views of faith and works. She noted works won't save you, but the absence of works will lead to your ruin.

[Gibs]

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

It is not free if one continues in sin, that forfeits the promise.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

[Samie]

Whether one believes in it or not, it is an incontrovertible biblical fact that humanity had been forgiven from all sins - past, present, future:

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Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

That's the mission of Christ, to save ALL from sin:

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1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

All have sinned, therefore, all are sinners:

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Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

And since all are sinners and Jesus came to save sinners, therefore he came to save all. That's why God, through Christ, is the Savior of ALL men:

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1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

How about current sins committed? Praise God, current sins committed are no longer imputed against man:

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2 Corinthians 5:18-19 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

In fact, God refuses to remember any sin, no matter how hard one tries to remind Him:

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Hebrews 10:16-17 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more

Because God had forgiven all our sins and current sins committed not imputed nor remembered, does this mean we are all bound to heaven and inherit life eternal no matter what? Sadly, NO. Why?

Only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life:

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Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Only those whose names remain in the book of life can enter heaven and inherit life eternal

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Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

All others will be thrown into the lake of fire:

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Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

May this serve as reminder to those who think the way of life we have has absolutely nothing to do with inheriting life eternal. Remember, the Lord Jesus Christ, at His 2nd Coming, will reward EVERYONE according to what each has done.

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Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:4-8 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

That's the beauty of the pure gospel. Salvation from sin is FREE. It was God's work FOR man. On the cross, He fashioned humanity into the body of His Son and by His death, all were forgiven. But we need to overcome to inherit life eternal. Being attached to Christ Who is our strength, it is not a question of INABILITY to overcome; rather, a REFUSAL to overcome. Non-overcomers will be blotted from the book of Life, removed from being part of the body of Christ.

Yes, God waits for us to become overcomers all throughout our lifetime (Heb 9:27). If in the end of our life's journey we still did not overcome, we have no one else to blame but ourselves. May we positively respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit through Whom, God works IN us both to will and to do His good pleasure (Phil 2:12, 13).

In Christ Our Savior & Righteous Judge,

Samie

[Gibs]

It's a free gift but many will refuse it and forfeit the prize that could have been theirs because it isn't the WAY THEY WANT IT.

We even have some that believe one can't be lost no matter what.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

He will in no way clear the guilty. Obey and live, for why will you die?

The second death is as certain as the sun coming up tommorow. MOST will be lost, as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Lord comes again. Most will perish to everlasting doom.

[JoeMo]

I agree totally with Samie and Cheddar on this.

"8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

By preaching law-keeping as a priority over relationship, some people will come to the conclusion that they must "get their life together" before entering into a relationship with Christ. It's just the opposite - we must come into an intimate relationship with Jesus before we are even empowered to overcome sin (at least that's been my experience). Anyone who thinks they can stop sinning without faith in and relationship with Jesus needs to re-think their position. I am convinced that "we are no longer slaves to sin because of our relationship to Jesus"; NOT "We are in a relationship with Jesus because we are no longer slaves to sin". As soon as we put works into the equation, you then have to wonder where the "performance" bar is. I am of the opinion that Jesus puts the bar on faith and relationship - not performance.

That being said, I agree that our growth in obedience to and love for our Savior is evidence of our relationship with Him.

[ClubV12]

We must be careful to find that balanced position in faith and works.

It appears to me that Cheddar and Sammie are preaching faith alone, as if there is no need to "get their life together" when entering into a relationship with Christ. As if the whole world will be saved. This was certainly not the case in the flood, or in the city of Sodom, or in many other examples we have of "God's judgement".

It is true we can't even COME to Christ without His working in our life to draw us to Him. And when that begins to happen...

WE have a duty to perform, WE have been given a work to do, WE have some responsibility to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Will it EVER be enough to warrant salvation? Certainly not! Only by Christs righteousness cloaking our sinful state is there hope. Do WE have a part to play in accepting this free gift? Absolutely!

[cheddar]

It appears to me that Cheddar and Sammie are preaching faith alone,

[ClubV12]

I completely agree with both Luther and A.T. Jones, as it concerns JUSTIFICATION. An important concept to the thief on the cross of course and a wonderful message.

Sanctification? That is the WORK of a lifetime. Sanctification is WORKING out your own salvation with fear and trembling. God means what He says, says what He means. He will in no way clear the guilty, those who put their feet up and foolishly think they have no part to play in this Great Controversy.

Works that do not flow from a heart of love, in response to being justified, are meaningless.

Paul was clear on this concept, as was Ellen White.

[cheddar]

It's obvious that you don't agree with A.T. Jones and Martin Luther and Paul.

Paul condemned your version of sanctification as witchcraft. (Galatians?)

And why is it that when people quote the verse 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' they never quote the 2nd part - 'For it is God which worketh in you...'

I realize that sinners like to work and think they play some part in their salvation.

But the truth of the matter is that a strong focus on works is an indication that the speaker has very little faith and is filled with unbelief.

[Samie]

We must be careful to find that balanced position in faith and works.

It appears to me that Cheddar and Sammie are preaching faith alone, as if there is no need to "get their life together" when entering into a relationship with Christ. As if the whole world will be saved. This was certainly not the case in the flood, or in the city of Sodom, or in many other examples we have of "God's judgement".

It is true we can't even COME to Christ without His working in our life to draw us to Him. And when that begins to happen...

WE have a duty to perform, WE have been given a work to do, WE have some responsibility to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Will it EVER be enough to warrant salvation? Certainly not! Only by Christs righteousness cloaking our sinful state is there hope. Do WE have a part to play in accepting this free gift? Absolutely!

Sorry, ClubV12. But did you read my post to its fullest? You seemed to have overlooked the portion on overcoming.

It is better at times not to jump to conclusion too fast too soon without first reading everything in the post.

[ClubV12]

Samie, as I noted, your post APPEARS to be preaching faith alone. Cheddar confirmed that was his intent, I'm glad to see that was not your intended message!

I am in complete harmony with Paul, Luther and A.T. Jones concerning their message of righteousness by faith. All of them understood the balance with faith and works. In particluar Paul, in Galations, layed it out. Sister White layed it out as well, and of course she was in perfect harmony with A.T. Jones message.

The problem is not with these biblical scholars, Cheddar, the problem is your unbalanced understanding of faith and works. The devil doesn't care on which side of the road you find yourself in the ditch, faith or works. Just as long as you ARE in the ditch, he's OK with that.

[Tallmark]

It takes a lifetime of work to learn that salvation is a free gift.

So if I work and work really hard, I'll learn this? No thanks. Call me lazy, but that sounds too difficult. I leaned about the free gift of salvation when I was baptized. And I don't work at perfecting my character because Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. How about you?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

It takes a lifetime of work to learn that salvation is a free gift.

So if I work and work really hard, I'll learn this? No thanks. Call me lazy, but that sounds too difficult. I leaned about the free gift of salvation when I was baptized. And I don't work at perfecting my character because Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. How about you?

Yeah. Working at it would not do much good. All good must come from Him. HE alones decides what good you will have.

[JoeMo]

I love this discussion. It gets at one of the great "mysteries of faith that I have struggled with for years. I hope this doesn't sound too off-beat, but here goes ...

4 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.(Rev. 3:14-19)

I won't waste everyone's time regurgitating the SDA interpretation of the message to Laodicea or "hot", "cold", and "lukewarm" - we all probably know it well. Let's just suppose their is another interpretation (many prophecies have multiple applications). Let's say, just for sake of debate, that "hot" may also mean entirely dependent upon your relationship with the Godhead (dare I say "hot" for Jesus?) for salvation; and "cold" means dependent upon works (being perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect) for salvation. You can switch the metaphor if that makes you more comfortable. In either case, "lukewarm" would mean mixing works and grace for salvation. Could Jesus be telling us to "choose what you want as a condition for salvation - grace and relationship or works; but don't mix them". Could this be what James meant when he was talking about being double-minded in James 1: 5-7:

"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do."

The Pharisees chose to live by works; and Jesus held them to the standard of the Law. The disciples chose to live by relationship; and Jesus accepted that, overlooking their weaknesses while He lovingly and patiently empowered them to overcome.

The Revelation message to all seven churches involves overcoming. But how do the saints overcome?

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev 12:11).

God's blessings to you; and have a great Sabbath!

[Woody]

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God's blessings to you; and have a great Sabbath!

WEll thanks for including this last sentence - it's the only sentence I understand. Quoting a bunch of quotes is fine - but I have no idea what you mean by quoting them unless you say so - which you didn't. So, I am left blind to know what your point is.

[JoeMo]

Sorry Woody, I didn't mean to be unclear. What I am saying is that I am persuaded that Jesus wants us to either rely on His grace or our works; He doesn't want us to mix them. He will hold us to the standard we choose. He will honor our free will to choose how we will relate to Him.

[Guest]

Jesus wants us to either rely on His grace or our works; He doesn't want us to mix them. He will hold us to the standard we choose.

Where is that in the Bible?

[ClubV12]

His grace or our works? Wait, thats the only two choices? May I suggest one more, His grace leading to our works!

As it concerns Laodecia I always saw that as In or Out. Tis better to be out, in the world, living like the world, KNOWING where you stand. OR even IN the church but knowing clearly where you stand, not fooling yourself or God, you have cherished sin, like it and aint giving it up. Even that is better than in the church and being "pretty sure" ya got it right, mostly, kind of, sort of, right, but not really caring one way or the other. Just thinking it will all, some how, work out in the end.