‎"Sin forsaken is one of the best evidences of sin forgiven."

[Samie]

...

That's a great presentation of good reasoning.

Which way is it? I suspect you'll get some type of explanation that Jesus' death applies from the foundation of the world.

Which is what Scipture intends, for why would He be called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

[JoeMo]

I continue to maintain that our salvation is solely dependent upon Christ's works, and has absolutely nothing to do with our own works.

Colossians 2: 13-15 says:

"13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it"

Christ forgave ALL of our trespasses (past, present, and future); having nailed them to the cross.

I know some of you will say "Ah, yes, that refers to the Mosaic Law; not the 10 Commandments"

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 says:

"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away."

Verse 3 clearly states "the ministry of death, carved in letters of stone". The Mosaic Law was written on parchment, not stone. The 10 Commandments were written on stone; and Paul calls them "the ministry of death"! God knew us from the foundation of the world. He doesn't need to test us - He already knows the results - that's why He gave us a Savior - and He is able to freely offer us salvation even in the darkest times of our lives. That's how I know I am saved; and any good works in me flow from that knowledge.

I'm not discounting the importance of the 10 Commandments. If I am a part of a "royal priesthood" and am going to judge angels and rule with Christ as a priest and king, I'd better act like it. But obedience and voluntary submission to the rules of the Kingdom are my witness as to whom I belong - not my means of salvation. I am solely saved by grace through faith, and not ever by my works. If I had to wonder day-in and day-out whether or not I was saved, I would give up.

I don't have to be "good enough" - Jesus already has been. And just knowing that makes me a better (at least more sane)person.

If anyone wants to hold Himself to the standard of the Law for salvation, go for it - Christ will honor your desires. But be careful what you ask for. I'm sick - I need a Great Physician to preserve my life. I'm going to rely on Him and Him alone. Self-medicating (striving to be "good enough") doesn't work for me. I choose salvation by faith and grace; and to let those lead me to good works. I don't need the law to push me, control me, and intimidate me. I do much better being led by the Spirit (as verified by Scripture) rather than pushed by religion and legalism.

[Dr. Rich]

Great post Samie! It's all about the choices we make--same went for Adam and Eve. Believe lies, or keep all ten of the commandments and follow the words (testimony) of Jesus. Rev. 12:17 and Matt. 19 point us to the real truth.

[Samie]

I continue to maintain that our salvation is solely dependent upon Christ's works, and has absolutely nothing to do with our own works.

Colossians 2: 13-15 says:

"13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it"

Christ forgave ALL of our trespasses (past, present, and future); having nailed them to the cross.

I know some of you will say "Ah, yes, that refers to the Mosaic Law; not the 10 Commandments"

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 says:

"Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away."

Verse 3 clearly states "the ministry of death, carved in letters of stone". The Mosaic Law was written on parchment, not stone. The 10 Commandments were written on stone; and Paul calls them "the ministry of death"! God knew us from the foundation of the world. He doesn't need to test us - He already knows the results - that's why He gave us a Savior - and He is able to freely offer us salvation even in the darkest times of our lives. That's how I know I am saved; and any good works in me flow from that knowledge.

I'm not discounting the importance of the 10 Commandments. If I am a part of a "royal priesthood" and am going to judge angels and rule with Christ as a priest and king, I'd better act like it. But obedience and voluntary submission to the rules of the Kingdom are my witness as to whom I belong - not my means of salvation. I am solely saved by grace through faith, and not ever by my works. If I had to wonder day-in and day-out whether or not I was saved, I would give up.

I don't have to be "good enough" - Jesus already has been. And just knowing that makes me a better (at least more sane)person.

If anyone wants to hold Himself to the standard of the Law for salvation, go for it - Christ will honor your desires. But be careful what you ask for. I'm sick - I need a Great Physician to preserve my life. I'm going to rely on Him and Him alone. Self-medicating (striving to be "good enough") doesn't work for me. I choose salvation by faith and grace; and to let those lead me to good works. I don't need the law to push me, control me, and intimidate me. I do much better being led by the Spirit (as verified by Scripture) rather than pushed by religion and legalism.

Hi JoeMo;

Any thoughts on why those who overcome evil will not be blotted out from the book of life while those who don't and won't will be blotted?

Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Salvation from sin is FREE. It is God's work FOR man. Not an iota of human participation. But to be ultimately saved to inherit life eternal necessitates positive response to God's work IN man (Phil 2:12, 13).

Man's name is blotted not because of sin; they were all forgiven and not remembered (Col 2:13; 2 Cor 5:18,19; Heb 10:17). It is blotted because he refused to overcome.

[JoeMo]

Hi Samie,

A very thought-provoking question; backed up by great scripture. Romans 12:21 for example. I would throw in 2Corinthians 5:18-22:

"18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

If we are indeed God's ambassadors, we will represent His Kingdom in an honorable manner. Like any ambassador, we have the full power of the Kingdom that we represent whenever we represent our Kingdom honorably. Part of that duty as an ambassador is to bring the influence of our Kingdom to the kingdom of the world. In other words, it is our duty (our privilege, actually) to increase the influence of the Kingdom of Heaven over the kingdom of earth. After all, the Kingdom of Heaven is already among us (See Luke17: 20-21).

I love your comment about salvation from sin is free. If we are not responding positively to God's love and mercy by being a conduit of that love and mercy to others (the second Great Commandment), have we really embraced by faith the gift that God so freely offers?