Birth Control, Abortion & Religious Liberty

[Dr. Shane]

the issue here, is not religious liberty, but women's rights...

Wrong. All the women working for Catholic organizations have the right to purchase birth control, sterilization or abortion. They are not even being threatened with termination. They simply have to purchase it with their own funds because the Catholic church does not want to be a means to provide or pay for what they believe is sinful.

This is textbook religious liberty. This is how the Sunday law will be passed. Extreme liberals are just as dangerous as radical conservative. This is very scary!

[Neil D]

Looks like someone has just been reading left-wing websites and not doing their homework. In Romney's case, the issue was abortion for incest and rape and the Catholic organizations did not have to provide abortion but rather direct victims to a where they could get such services.

Oh good night, Shane...That information came from a catholic institution...Perhaps you've heard of it...Georgetown University...press release...If you have a problem with the info...you talk to them..

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

the issue here, is not religious liberty, but women's rights...

Wrong. All the women working for Catholic organizations have the right to purchase birth control, sterilization or abortion. They are not even being threatened with termination. They simply have to purchase it with their own funds because the Catholic church does not want to be a means to provide or pay for what they believe is sinful.

This is textbook religious liberty. This is how the Sunday law will be passed. Extreme liberals are just as dangerous as radical conservative. This is very scary!

Sure they have the right...but do you want to spend $50/month or $15. And since most of those catholic institutions [we're talking over 70% of them] are already providing benefits that are comparable to non-catholic institutions...And since 90% of Catholic women ARE using birth control and since business are looking for ways and means to cut $$$$ from thier bugets....

It's NOT a religous liberty issue....

[Dr. Shane]

Sure they have the right...

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane wrote:

“Looks like someone has just been reading left-wing websites and not doing their homework. In Romney's case, the issue was abortion for incest and rape and the Catholic organizations did not have to provide abortion but rather direct victims to a where they could get such services.”

Are you suggesting that it is morally acceptable to kill an innocent baby for the crime of his/her father? Does the Catholic Church condone abortion resulting from rape and incest?

I suggest that you take the time to read the story of Kristi Hofferber. This is the way the story starts, and I have included the reference for you:

"February 13, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) If you think of yourself as pro-life except in the case of rape and incest, you will have to look Kristi Hofferber in the eye and tell her that her mother should have aborted her. And it almost happened. ..."

Source: http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/conceiv...i-hofferbers-in

The woman who gave birth to Kristi got pregnant six times as a result of incest and had five abortions. The sixth time she got pregnant, Kristi's mother decided to let the unborn live, but gave the baby girl to a Christian family who raised her in a happy and stable environment.

Isn't this an example of how redemption works? Abortion is not a redemptive solution, while the adoption alternative is. Should not Adventist emphasize a redemptive solution to unwanted pregnancies instead of allowing our hospitals to profit from the lucrative abortion business?

[Nic Samojluk]

hamilton-beach wrote:

“Sure they have the right...but do you want to spend $50/month or $15. And since most of those catholic institutions [we're talking over 70% of them] are already providing benefits that are comparable to non-catholic institutions...And since 90% of Catholic women ARE using birth control and since business are looking for ways and means to cut $$$$ from their budgets....”

The problem I see is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If Catholic women will now have access to this killing service free of charge, this means that other citizens who have a moral issue against the murder of innocent human beings will be forded to pay for such crimes. Do not forget that the morning pill is considered by Catholics as equivalent to murder, and the morning after pill is included in the contraception program.

If we are afraid that some day in the future we might be forced to desecrate the Sabbath and will be persecuted for disobeying Sunday Laws, then we need to respect Catholics freedom to exercise their religious beliefs without being forced to contribute to what they consider to be equivalent to murder.

Catholics deserve to have our Adventist moral support. This might pave the way for us to get their moral support in our time of need.

[phkrause]

Isn't this an example of how redemption works? Abortion is not a redemptive solution, while the adoption alternative is. Should not Adventist emphasize a redemptive solution to unwanted pregnancies instead of allowing our hospitals to profit from the lucrative abortion business?

Amen, this we can agree on.

[Neil D]

The problem I see is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If Catholic women will now have access to this killing service free of charge, this means that other citizens who have a moral issue against the murder of innocent human beings will be forded to pay for such crimes. Do not forget that the morning pill is considered by Catholics as equivalent to murder, and the morning after pill is included in the contraception program.

If we are afraid that some day in the future we might be forced to desecrate the Sabbath and will be persecuted for disobeying Sunday Laws, then we need to respect Catholics freedom to exercise their religious beliefs without being forced to contribute to what they consider to be equivalent to murder.

Catholics deserve to have our Adventist moral support. This might pave the way for us to get their moral support in our time of need.

this is where misinformation comes to play....You believe that this bill is about the ability to have an abortion...This bill is not about that at all....

It's about reproductive rights and the ability/availablity to keep the sperm away from the egg. It was not about funding abortions...it was about keeping the two vital ingrediants apart to prevent babies...

Now, since 90% of Catholic women are using these benefits, it follows that most Catholic women are more than willing to use contraceptive devices to prevent pregnancy. It's not a moral issue in the sense of violating the 6th commandment...it's a women's right issue, and let's them decide when they want a child or not...It is not about men in power deciding/lording over thier women....

[phkrause]

Excellent point hb, but there are those that just want to see for what they believe it is, they already have an agenda.

[bonnie]

this is where misinformation comes to play....You believe that this bill is about the ability to have an abortion...This bill is not about that at all....

[bonnie]

Excellent point hb, but there are those that just want to see for what they believe it is, they already have an agenda.

What agenda? You mean the one that says you have a right to purchase birth control with your money? Poor dears,whatever will they do now

[Dr. Shane]

Are you suggesting that it is morally acceptable to kill an innocent baby for the crime of his/her father?

This thread is about religious liberty, Nic. Keep it on topic. Do not try to make this about abortion. If you do, your posts would be moved out of this thread. Religious liberty, Nic - not abortion. Start another thread if you want to rant and rave about abortion. I will not allow you to hijack this thread. Consider yourself warned. You don't get another one.

[Dr. Shane]

this is where misinformation comes to play....You believe that this bill is about the ability to have an abortion...This bill is not about that at all....

The problem here is people are speaking different languages.

We (protestants) say birth control, they (Catholics) say chemical abortion. Understand, birth control prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. Catholics believe life begins at conception. That happens in the fallopian tubes. So if life does begin in the fallopian tubes and birth control prevents it from implanting in the uterus, that could be consider by some as being an abortion.

The focus of this thread is religious liberty. Let's not get side-tracked into the morality of abortion or birth control. For the sake of this discussion, Catholics believe birth control is wrong. The US federal government is trying to force the Catholic church to provide health-care coverage for its employees that would provide this free. Whether or not birth control or abortion is sinful is a separate issue. What is relevant to this discussion is what the Catholic church believes and what the US federal government is trying to force them to do.

[Dr. Shane]

It's about reproductive rights...

[Nic Samojluk]

hamilton-beach wrote:

“You believe that this bill is about the ability to have an abortion...This bill is not about that at all.... It's about reproductive rights and the ability/availability to keep the sperm away from the egg. It was not about funding abortions...it was about keeping the two vital ingredients apart to prevent babies...”

True, the bill is mainly about contraception; for Obama and Sebelius the morning after pill is contraception, but for Catholics it is an abortive pill. This is where the problem comes in.

“Now, since 90% of Catholic women are using these benefits, it follows that most Catholic women are more than willing to use contraceptive devices to prevent pregnancy.”

Can we rely on these statistics? Who originated them? Are they based on facts and serious studies or on fiction fabricated by those who hate the Catholic position on abortion? Let’s not forget how the figures about back alley abortions were inflated back in 1973 in order to deceive the public about what was taking place. They were inflated tenfold.

“It's not a moral issue in the sense of violating the 6th commandment...it's a women's right issue"

It may not be a moral issue for some Catholics, but it is a moral issue for conservative Catholics. The Sabbath is not a moral issue for most Christians, but it is a moral issue for Adventists, orthodox Jews, and Seventh Day Baptists.

“let's them decide when they want a child or not...”

Yes, I believe that women have the right to decide when they want to have a child; the problem is that when a woman gets pregnant, it is to late to decide not to have a child, they already have a child—perhaps small, but it is a human being—and no amount of argument will convince a true Catholic to accept the notion that abortion is morally right.

In this, true Catholics are an example of faithfulness to moral conviction which Adventist would do well to emulate.

“It is not about men in power deciding/lording over their women....”

The ones who are determined to Lord over everybody are not true Catholics, but rather Obama and Sebelius who will not leave a stone unturned in order to impose their liberal and morally depraved will on the rest of the American population.

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane wrote:

“This thread is about religious liberty, Nic. Keep it on topic. Do not try to make this about abortion. If you do, your posts would be moved out of this thread. Religious liberty, Nic - not abortion. Start another thread if you want to rant and rave about abortion. I will not allow you to hijack this thread. Consider yourself warned. You don't get another one.”

Shane, are you blind or has your memory failed you? Have you forgotten the title you have chosen for this thread?

“Birth Control, Abortion & Religious Liberty”

I see the word “ABORTION” right in the middle of the title you have chosen. Besides, the morning pill is an integral part of the Obama’s contraception program, and Catholics consider the morning pill as equivalent to abortion.

Your warning against me is totally unfounded, and I deserve an apology.

If you want to penalize me for commenting on abortion, you need to remove the word "abortion" from the title of your thread.

[phkrause]

Nic you make an excellent point, I don't always agree with you, but on this point I do.

[Neil D]

“let's them decide when they want a child or not...”

Yes, I believe that women have the right to decide when they want to have a child; the problem is that when a woman gets pregnant, it is to late to decide not to have a child, they already have a child—perhaps small, but it is a human being—and no amount of argument will convince a true Catholic to accept the notion that abortion is morally right.

In this, true Catholics are an example of faithfulness to moral conviction which Adventist would do well to emulate.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Now, since 90% of Catholic women are using these benefits...

First, I don't know where one gets this statistic. I wonder if 90% of Catholic women are even of child-bearing age. I certainly doubt that many are violating the church's doctrine.

[bonnie]

Not a religious liberty issue...Tis a womans right to reproductive issues issue....

Name one woman that has been denied her reproductive rights?

No one is demanding any woman have a child or more than she wants.

Just that undeniably old fashioned,out dated personal responsibility of paying for it.After all what is Big Brother for if not to force someone to pay for another?

[Dr. Shane]

Your warning against me is totally unfounded, and I deserve an apology.

No, it is not unfounded and the warning stands. If you try to derail this topic onto abortion, your posts will be moved. This topic is about religious liberty.

[Dr. Shane]

as for where the info came from, it came from a catholic university...Georgetown University...a Jesuit institution....

[Dr. Shane]

those that choose the rhythm method are usually called "parents" in time...;-)

If a woman is regular and charts out her fertile days by using her body temperature, the rhythm method is highly successful. The effectiveness of any method decreases the longer a person uses it.

HM: do not get sucked into an abortion debate with Nic. If you and him want to go at it about abortion, one of you can start a new thread. Nic gets diarrhea of the mouth and can't stop typing. I can't permit that here. This thread is about the federal government telling a religious institution what they have to do. In this case it is birth control. It could just as easily be telling Adventist hospitals that we have to serve pork chops. While abortion is involved in this topic, this topic is not about the morality of abortion.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

those that choose the rhythm method are usually called "parents" in time...;-)

If a woman is regular and charts out her fertile days by using her body temperature, the rhythm method is highly successful. The effectiveness of any method decreases the longer a person uses it.

[Nic Samojluk]

pkrause wrote:

“Nic you make an excellent point, I don't always agree with you, but on this point I do.”

Thanks pk! Thanks for coming to my rescue! I also thank you for disagreeing with me on other points; I usually learn more when people disagree with me than when they simply say “Amen!” to what I write. By the way, I sometimes disagree with myself!