SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[JoeMo]

"In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this." PP; p.203.

If we are conscious of our needs, we should not devote all our powers to mourning over them. While we realize our helpless condition without Christ, we are not to yield to discouragement, but rely upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Look and live. Jesus has pledged His word; He will save all who come unto Him. Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who TRUSTS in His MERITS will be left to perish." PP; p432

Thank you for these quotes, Skyblue; they are truly a blessing! I agree wholeheartedly that it is solely through the merits of our crucified and risen Savior that we are saved. What beauty there is in the simplicity of this eternal truth!

This seems to confirm that my relationship with my King is what saves me; not my relationship and conformity with a denomination (although my denomination holds more truth for me than any other group). I come to Christ just as I am and confess my sins; and He is faithful and just to forgive my sins and cleanse me from unrighteousness. I don't need to cleanse myself from unrighteousness before I come to Christ; I come to Christ and He cleanses me. So why are people required to understand and conform to all 28 pillars of our faith before they are allowed to "join the club" (be baptized)? Isn't it our righteousness in Christ that saves us; and not the "club" we join or the "pigeon hole" to which we are assigned? Aren't the members of other "clubs" who are truly seeking intimacy with their King just as "saved" as we are?

[skyblue888]

"In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this." PP; p.203.

"If we are conscious of our needs, we should not devote all our powers to mourning over them. While we realize our helpless condition without Christ, we are not to yield to discouragement, but rely upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Look and live. Jesus has pledged His word; He will save all who come unto Him. Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who TRUSTS in His MERITS will be left to perish." PP; p432

Thank you for these quotes, Skyblue; they are truly a blessing! I agree wholeheartedly that it is solely through the merits of our crucified and risen Savior that we are saved. What beauty there is in the simplicity of this eternal truth!

This seems to confirm that my relationship with my King is what saves me; not my relationship and conformity with a denomination (although my denomination holds more truth for me than any other group). I come to Christ just as I am and confess my sins; and He is faithful and just to forgive my sins and cleanse me from unrighteousness. I don't need to cleanse myself from unrighteousness before I come to Christ; I come to Christ and He cleanses me. So why are people required to understand and conform to all 28 pillars of our faith before they are allowed to "join the club" (be baptized)? Isn't it our righteousness in Christ that saves us; and not the "club" we join or the "pigeon hole" to which we are assigned? Aren't the members of other "clubs" who are truly seeking intimacy with their King just as "saved" as we are?

JM, Your reply truly resonates with what I have come to understand of the most precious message ever sent to our people. Allow me to add a couple of statemetns that perfectly harmonizes with what you just stated:

"Some seem to feel that they must be on probation and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed before they can claim His blessing. But these dear souls may claim the blessing even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot form a Christian character. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent."

"He who will lay hold of Christ's righteousness need not wait one moment that he himself may blout out his own sins. He need not wait until he has made a suitable repentance before he may take hold upon Christ's righteousness. We do not understand the matter of salvation. It is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith & Works,38,64.

"How long will you hate and despise the messengers of God's righteousness? God has given them His message. They bear the word of the Lord: There is salvation for you (pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit) but only through the merits of Jesus Christ. The grace of the Holy spirit has been offered to you again and again." T.M.97.

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky says no main stream Adventist groups are teaching righteousness by faith today, that simple truth.

I see it everywhere Sky. This last Sabbath it was once again the subject of discourse in the Sabbath School lesson as we considered the law and the law giver. How is it that you DON'T see this truth being preached? I suspect it has something to do with your concept that those who remain in the Seventh-day Adventist Church will be forever unable to grasp righteousness by faith. Quite the opposite I believe . Those who have been in the Church, rejected it and left will never be able to understand it even when they think they do.

Ellen White wrote about, preached it, taught her entire career. It's not nearly as illusive as some make it sound. I see it everywhere.

[skyblue888]

On a different adventist forum where I posted the above quotes in regard to how we are to rely solely upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour in order to gain the approval of God, someone asked these two questions:

I have a couple of questions:

1. what is the MERIT?

2. how do you trust the MERIT? Or what do you do to trust the MERIT?

[JoeMo]

Hi ClubV12,

I agree that the church preaches their version of righteousness by faith; but almost all of the sermons I hear on the subject are about "performance-based" righteousness by faith. It goes something like this: "we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, who empowers us to keep His whole law. So make sure you are keeping the whole law in order to retain the salvation by faith that Jesus gives you. Remember that one unconfessed sin may very well keep you out of the Kingdom". Read some of the other forums on this website where people stress over whether or not they are saved; and are worried about whether they are "good enough" to go to heaven.

In Galations 1:1-5, Paul tells us:

1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[a] by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

This tells me that if I rely on the law (in this case circumcision) to justify me, I have cut myself off from grace as a means of salvation. I trust God's grace alot more than I trust my performance.

Just about every sermon I hear tries to control me and obligate me to law-keeping, like I can somehow "earn my salvation" by fulfilling the obligation of the law. But I can't keep the whole law! Where does one draw the line? Certainly not at the 10 Commandments; or we wouldn't be so hung up on dietary laws and temperance. Certainly not at all 662 precepts of the Mosaic law, or we'd still be sacrificing sheep and oxen and sending our wives and older daughters away once a month.

How perfectly do we have to keep the Law to take advantage of righteousness by faith? Does riding my bicycle or my horse on Sabbath make me a sinner? We're not supposed to go out and eat on Sabbath; but if we go home to eat, when does my wife get a day of rest? (I know, if we had prepared our Sabbath meal on the Preparation Day, this would not be an issue). We go to camp meeting and trade our dollars for a Sabbath lunch ticket on Friday, but when we trade the ticket (i.e., "Adventist Script") for our lunch, aren't we still "buying" lunch? When we talk about money and browbeat people into giving more so the church can meet its evangelism and stewardship budget, aren't we conducting worldly business on the Sabbath? Who is setting the line for us - Jesus, ourselves, or the denomination? I choose Jesus - His grace is the sole sufficient condition for my salvation. I don't know what pigeon-hole that position puts me in; but as long as it's the one Jesus is in, I'm good.

[skyblue888]

I think the following should make it forever clear that we are not saved by works even if these works are the works that the grace of God enables us to do.

"Works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." Faith & Works,48.

What this is clearly saying to me is that the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of Jesus will work the works of God for "the law of the divine and the human action brings man where he can, united with divinity, work the works of God." Faith & Works,27.

But these works, in and of themselves, do not play a part in the salvation of the soul. The Lord will reward us for these works but the idea that these works play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit, the angels of God reject as treason!

sky

[Guest]

Faith and works will keep us evenly balanced and make us successful in the work of perfecting Christian character. Jesus says, "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter in the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). Speaking of temporal food, the apostle said, "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10). The same rule applies to our spiritual nourishment; if any would have the bread of eternal life, let him make efforts to obtain it. {FW 49.2}

[phkrause]

I think the following should make it forever clear that we are not saved by works even if these works are the works that the grace of God enables us to do.

"Works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." Faith & Works,48.

What this is clearly saying to me is that the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of Jesus will work the works of God for "the law of the divine and the human action brings man where he can, united with divinity, work the works of God." Faith & Works,27.

But these works, in and of themselves, do not play a part in the salvation of the soul. The Lord will reward us for these works but the idea that these works play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit, the angels of God reject as treason!

sky

[skyblue888]

Thanks again pk

God bless

[ClubV12]

Paul had much to say about grace, James had much to say about works.

If James was preaching, would some hear and believe "works" were the only means to salvation? If Paul was preaching, would some hear and believe that grace is all we need?

Ever the balance must be maintained, but it is a spiritually discerned balance, an illusive concept to those trying to express it in some theological terms. It is so simple and yet, so difficult, only the sincere seeker of truth will find the balance.

As for me, I don't anticipate or engage in "works" as if that will result in ANY kind of "reward", now or in the future. I see "works", living the "blue print" as a methedology, a means of clearing my mind, enhancing my spiritual discernment. So that I might be more sensitive to His speaking to my soul. That I might draw ever closer to Him, to be like Him, my only hope and I am so gratefull He loves me.

[Guest]

As for me, I don't anticipate or engage in "works" as if that will result in ANY kind of "reward", now or in the future. I see "works", living the "blue print" as a methedology, a means of clearing my mind, enhancing my spiritual discernment. So that I might be more sensitive to His speaking to my soul. That I might draw ever closer to Him, to be like Him, my only hope and I am so gratefull He loves me.

Amen!

[Gibs]

We don't want a dead faith,

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead

I've never seen anybody without works. But then perhaps I don't get out enough.

[Gibs]

What counts I think woody is the brand of the works. Of what Spirit, for evil or for God and His cause.

There is no doubt in my mind that if it is True Faith in God the works will be of His brand.

The spirit of Satan also will produce works as does the Spirit of God. Both motivate and move men. Satan loves to have men think they are of God when He is their master.

Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

I thought "Hope International" was associated with Desmond Ford?

I listen/watch Amazing Discoveries more than any SDA channel. I have yet to hear Walter Veith say anything recommending removal from the SDA Church or withholding support of it.

Where do you categorize "White Horse Media?"

[John317]

I thought "Hope International" was associated with Desmond Ford?

Hope International opposes Ford's "new theology." It supports

Ellen White's prophetic ministry and writings, and all 28 SDA Fundamental Beliefs.

Ron Spear used to be the editor of their paper. He's retired now but he put out some great material before his retirement. Much of it you can read online, in the archives of "Our Firm Foundation":

http://hopeint.org/

[John317]

Where do you categorize "White Horse Media?"

White Horse Media is directed by Steve Wohlberg, who supports the SDA church, so I would be surprised if anyone who knows the ministry would categorize it other than in #1.

http://whitehorsemedia.com/

Some of his best books are about the Bible's teachings on the second coming of Christ.

[lazarus]

I stand by all the teachings of the church. EACH and everyone of the 28 Fundamentals. But not everyone does. And I have no issue with them. But be aware of where you are going and what they believe and promote.

My experience of individuals involved in Heartland and Hope is that some have been overtly critical of the Church organization. They often say the right message is not being preached, there is apostacy and that whole jesuit folly. I have seem many young people get "fanatical" and then discover that this intensity cannot be sustained and then leave the church. It's happening again with the likes of Walter Vieth, Stephen Bhor et, al.

When you destroy faith in the true church. People leave the true church and then stop going to church. I've seen it happen too many times.

[skyblue888]

Let us not forget that the 1888 message was sent to a church whose members had already been baptized, some for many years and some for not so many years. Yet, from top to bottom the people needed to experience the new birth. They needed to have their eyes directed to Jesus, to His divine Person, and to His merits.

For years the people had been taught to look to man, to trust to man, to expect help from man. See T.M.93. They had lost sight of Jesus and of His merits which it was their privilege to claim in order to bring His righteousness into their lives. See Testimonies to Ministers, 92; Faith & Works,65,66.

People who had already been baptized were invited to come to Jesus, on a daily basis, just as they were, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Then the Holy Spirit, Christ's Representative, would bring His righteousness into their lives and it would accomplish everything for His righteousness is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. See T.M.92,93; F.W.27.

On page 369 of Testimonies to Ministers, we read:

"The words of Jesus (You must be born again) are spoken just as verily to presidents of conferences, elders of churches, and those occupying official positions in our institutions." *parenthesis mine

This message is still present truth. It is our last opportunity. Unless it is received, believed, and acted upon, the church will be left behind and the call will be extended to other peoples and it will swell into the loud cry.

sky

[JoeMo]

Great discussion. Lazarus' experience with Heartland and Hope parallels my experience. I had similar experiences with Steps to Life and Rolling Hills (now defunct). I found them in general to be very legalistic, judgemental, and exclusive. They seemed to be watching each other all the time with a "holier than thou" attitude. I haven't interacted with them for quite some time; they may have moderated their old positions somewhat. At any rate,I pretty much hated myself because of the shortcomings and unworthiness that they crammed down our throats during my association with them. All of us were constantly warned that none of us were "good enough". I Look at Matt. 15:17-19:

17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.

I am of the opinion that when we allow our hearts (consciences) to tell us how unworthy, worthless, and sinful we are, we risk becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. We convince ourselves in our hearts that we are intrinsically evil, and we become what we perceive. On the other hand, when we put our entire faith into the grace and merits of our Savior and allow our hearts to tell us that through grace by faith we ARE worthy and we ARE saved, we may actually start acting that way. How can we rule with Christ as priests and kings unless we are allied in mind, will, and heart with Him? How can we be His ambassadors here on earth unless we reflect His character? In my mind, this is where works enter into the equation. In other words, my obedience to the Commandments and ability to do good works are the direct result of my salvation; my salvation is not the result of my good works. Ephesians2:8-11 seems to testify of this:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

When James says "faith without works is dead"; and "show me your faith and I will show you my works", I think he is challenging people to put their money where their mouth is. In today's language, he might be saying "don't "tell" me you're a believer, "show" me that you are a believer.

I want to thank all of you for your discussion here. It is inspiring and thought-provoking for me.

[Gibs]

What I am seeing in most cases of the ministry today in Adventism, it is not teaching that all must be overcomers and how it can be accomplished and done by each individual. Correct that error completly and some other errors would be sweeped out with it. That is the most important issue to each and everyone!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

JoeMo, please correct me if I am wrong. May be I misunderstood the following you wrote:

"I am of the opinion that when we allow our hearts (consciences) to tell us how unworthy, worthless, and sinful we are, we risk becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. We convince ourselves in our hearts that we are intrinsically evil, and we become what we perceive. On the other hand, when we put our entire faith into the grace and merits of our Savior and allow our hearts to tell us that through grace by faith we ARE worthy and we ARE saved, we may actually start acting that way."

However, speaking of those who are to enter into the time of Jacob's trouble, after the close of probation, we read:

"Darkness thickened around them; yet they stood firm, approved of God, and trusting in Him. I saw them perplexed; next I heard them crying unto God earnestly. Day and night their cry ceased not: 'Your will, O God, be done! If it can glorify Your name, make a way of escape for Your people! Deliver us from the heathen around about us. They have appointed us unto death; but Your arm can bring salvation.' These are all the words which I can bring to mind. All seemed to have a deep sense of their unworthiness and manifested entire submission to the will of God; yet, like Jacob, every one, without an exception, was earnestly pleading and wrestling for deliverance". Early Writings,272.

They will have a deep sense of their unworthiness during that time while trusting in the merits of their Redeemer (See P.P.203) and great grace will be upon them, yet at the same time not one will dare say "I am saved" for they know that no sanctified tongue will ever utter these words till Christ shall come and they enter in through the gates in the City. (See 1 S.M.314 bottom of page)

The redeemed will never say or think that they are worthy even when the Lord declares them to be worthy. They will always think of themselves as unworthy and exclaim "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain."

Back to you.

sky

[JoeMo]

I'll be honest with you, Sky - this issue has been a dilemna for me for over 30 years (I'm in my 60's). On the one hand, I can't realistically believe that I have done anything at all to "deserve" salvation. But if I make a mantra out of declaring my unworthiness, I feel like I am giving the evil one entrance to accuse and discourage me. Yet, by realizing my unworthiness, I also realize my need for a Savior.

On the other hand, if I declare myself as having overcome, am I hardening my concience against the wooing and enabling of the Spirit to continue overcoming; and relying on "cheap grace" to get me through?

I thank God that He has brought some consistency and balance to my spiritual eyesight lately - where I am "sure" of my salvation as evidenced by the opportunities (real or imagined)that God sends my way; and have seen positive results in my spiritual and moral life. I even hear (or think I hear) Him "speaking" to me sometimes!

I don't want to be double-minded and swept away with every wind of doctrine (or lack thereof). I also don't want to limit my mind to just one way of thinking to the exclusion of any new ideas. I did that for 15 years while I fully embraced the legalism of "historic" Adventism; and I've been trying to recover from that for almost 10 years now. I am currently comfortable with leaning fully on the grace and merit of Jesus for my salvation; and assuming that any good works in me are the fruit of that grace and merit.

Thanks to you, Sky, I have introduced a new concept to my spiritual vocabulary. Your post on the merits of Christ had a profound positive impact on me.

[phkrause]

I'll be honest with you, Sky - this issue has been a dilemna for me for over 30 years (I'm in my 60's). On the one hand, I can't realistically believe that I have done anything at all to "deserve" salvation. But if I make a mantra out of declaring my unworthiness, I feel like I am giving the evil one entrance to accuse and discourage me. Yet, by realizing my unworthiness, I also realize my need for a Savior.

On the other hand, if I declare myself as having overcome, am I hardening my concience against the wooing and enabling of the Spirit to continue overcoming; and relying on "cheap grace" to get me through?

I thank God that He has brought some consistency and balance to my spiritual eyesight lately - where I am "sure" of my salvation as evidenced by the opportunities (real or imagined)that God sends my way; and have seen positive results in my spiritual and moral life. I even hear (or think I hear) Him "speaking" to me sometimes!

I don't want to be double-minded and swept away with every wind of doctrine (or lack thereof). I also don't want to limit my mind to just one way of thinking to the exclusion of any new ideas. I did that for 15 years while I fully embraced the legalism of "historic" Adventism; and I've been trying to recover from that for almost 10 years now. I am currently comfortable with leaning fully on the grace and merit of Jesus for my salvation; and assuming that any good works in me are the fruit of that grace and merit.

Thanks to you, Sky, I have introduced a new concept to my spiritual vocabulary. Your post on the merits of Christ had a profound positive impact on me.

Excellent post JoeMo, I've also been blessed by a few on C/A, and I always pray that when I post it doesn't discouraged but is also a blessing to others.

[Woody]

Quote:

Excellent post JoeMo, I've also been blessed by a few on C/A, and I always pray that when I post it doesn't discouraged but is also a blessing to others.

And that U R PK