Daniel 11

[Samie]

8 hours ago, Geoarrge said:

And if there are multiple instances of the AoD, it is not necessary to assume that all references to it must be relegated to the future.

In the words of the Master Teacher, there is only one great tribulation (also called time of trouble in Dan 12:1, 2). This great tribulation will be triggered by the setting up of the AoD.

If there are more than ONE AoD's, then each of those AoD's will trigger its own great tribulation. BUT since there is only one great tribulation, THEREFORE, there is only one AoD:

Quote

KJV Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[Geoarrge]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

If there are more than ONE AoD's, then each of those AoD's will trigger its own great tribulation.

That is not established anywhere.

[Samie]

In Matt 24:15-20, Jesus explained that when the AoD spoken of by Daniel the prophet is set up in the holy place, those in Judea must flee to the mountains, those in the rooftops must not go inside the house to get anything, those in the fields should not return to their houses to get their clothes.  Instead, they must flee hastily. Why?

Quote

ASV Matthew 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.

CJB Matthew 24:21 For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world until now, and there will be nothing like it again!

ESV Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

KJV Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

NAS Matthew 24:21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.

NIV Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-- and never to be equaled again.

I believe there will only be ONE, and ONLY 1, great tribulation based on what our Lord Himself said. This unique great tribulation will occur when the AoD is set up. Since the great tribulation is unique, the AoD whose setting up will trigger its occurrence must necessarily be unique.

In Daniel 12:1, 2, the great tribulation or time of distress will be at the time when God's people written in the book (of life?) are delivered and when the dead will be resurrected.  These events are directly related with the 2nd coming.

Quote

NIV Daniel 12:

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Geoarrge]

There is still nothing to establish that the AoD doesn't appear more than once. It may be "set up in the holy place" once, but that doesn't mean it can't appear earlier without being set up in the holy place,

The problem with the futurist interpretation is that if it is correct, it leaves not much to discuss, because it tends to be impenetrable to present day speculation. 

[Samie]

11 hours ago, Geoarrge said:

There is still nothing to establish that the AoD doesn't appear more than once.

Denial doesn't establish nor disprove anything. You haven't even tried establishing thru Scriptures that the AoD does appear more than once.

[Geoarrge]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Denial doesn't establish nor disprove anything. You haven't even tried establishing thru Scriptures that the AoD does appear more than once.

Haven't I?  

Daniel 11 describes its first appearance in the middle period, some time before the 'time of the end,' which leads directly into chapter 12. Jesus says when the abomination of desolation is "standing in the holy place/ where it ought not" it will lead directly into the tribulation.  One way to reconcile these prophecies is to ignore the time break at Daniel 11.40; another is to suppose they refer to two separate events, in which Daniel refers to the second appearance but describes the AoD in different words.

[Samie]

5 hours ago, Geoarrge said:

Haven't I?  

Daniel 11 describes its first appearance in the middle period, some time before the 'time of the end,' which leads directly into chapter 12. Jesus says when the abomination of desolation is "standing in the holy place/ where it ought not" it will lead directly into the tribulation.  One way to reconcile these prophecies is to ignore the time break at Daniel 11.40; another is to suppose they refer to two separate events, in which Daniel refers to the second appearance but describes the AoD in different words.

What middle period are you talking about?

The vile person king came into the picture starting from Daniel 11:21 and remained alive until the Second Coming depicted in Dan 12:1 ,2.  The vile person king, I believe, is also the little horn king of Dan 7, the king of fierce countenance of Dan 8, the prince that shall come of Dan 9:26, the man of sin of 2 Thess 2, and the beast of Rev 13 whose image is the AoD.

[Geoarrge]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

What middle period are you talking about?

The vile person king came into the picture starting from Daniel 11:21 and remained alive until the Second Coming depicted in Dan 12:1 ,2.  The vile person king, I believe, is also the little horn king of Dan 7, the king of fierce countenance of Dan 8, the prince that shall come of Dan 9:26, the man of sin of 2 Thess 2, and the beast of Rev 13 whose image is the AoD.

That's a very tall stack of identities.  The middle period to which I am referring would be the period described from Dan 11.29-39.  The time breaks can be clearly identified by the usage of phrases like "At the appointed time (29)" and "At the time of the end(40)." 

The question is, why should Daniel 11.21-45 be read as continuous, while the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 should be understood as discontinuous?

[Samie]

21 hours ago, Geoarrge said:

The question is, why should Daniel 11.21-45 be read as continuous, while the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 should be understood as discontinuous?

And where in any of my posts did I say the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are discontinuous? Here's my eschatological time chart. Post any objection to it and I will defend my position sola scriptura.

Eschatological Diagram.pdf

[phkrause]

Here's my contribution to Daniel 11. I read this book by Marc Alden Swearingen a number of years ago and posted it! Very much in line as to what I learned many years ago from pastor J.M. Hoffman. If interested in what the writer has to say, you can read through the old thread!!

https://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/30259-tidings-out-of-the-northeast/

[Geoarrge]

On 6/23/2016 at 7:15 PM, Samie said:

And where in any of my posts did I say the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are discontinuous? Here's my eschatological time chart. Post any objection to it and I will defend my position sola scriptura.

I apologize. Many futurists take that position and I simply assumed. Taking the entire 70 weeks into the future is an approach that I'm not familiar with, and there isn't much reason to favor that over the traditional 457 BC start point. Though still, it leaves very little to discuss in the present. Piling everything together in the future is essentially saying there are no signposts to determine how far along in the course of history we are now, no possible clues to identify the specific forces that will be involved later; because until certain specific criteria are met to begin these events, we are not yet on the territory charted by the map.  While this is an interesting perspective, I'm not sure people will benefit from us bickering about it for 17 more pages.

18 hours ago, phkrause said:

Here's my contribution to Daniel 11. I read this book by Marc Alden Swearingen a number of years ago and posted it! Very much in line as to what I learned many years ago from pastor J.M. Hoffman. If interested in what the writer has to say, you can read through the old thread!!

https://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/30259-tidings-out-of-the-northeast/

Very interesting. I'm not sold on how he swings toward a highly symbolic interpretation from v29 onward.  I understand it's traditional to assume that all eschatological references to Israel refer to the true Church as an expanded Israel, but one thing to point out is that Daniel 11 doesn't mention Israel as a nation, only refers to the territory, along with referring to other real nations. It's easier to suppose it refers to the literal territory of Israel than to try to suss out the spiritual identities of the other named nations.

[Samie]

On 25/06/2016 at 1:12 PM, Geoarrge said:

Taking the entire 70 weeks into the future is an approach that I'm not familiar with, and there isn't much reason to favor that over the traditional 457 BC start point. 

Dan 9:25 SPECIFIES the starting point as the issuance of the decree to build and restore Jerusalem. The 457 BC decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus was for BEAUTIFICATION of the temple in Jerusalem.  Looks like "a square peg in a round hole" to me.

Before the appearance of the vile-person-king in Dan 11:21, there's an allusion to devastation of Israel in v16.  I believe the decree for the rebuilding and restoration of the yet-to-be-devastated-present-day-Israel will be the start point of the yet-to-be-fulfilled 70-week-prophecy.

[Samie]

On 25/06/2016 at 1:12 PM, Geoarrge said:

Piling everything together in the future is essentially saying there are no signposts to determine how far along in the course of history we are now, no possible clues to identify the specific forces that will be involved later; because until certain specific criteria are met to begin these events, we are not yet on the territory charted by the map.  While this is an interesting perspective, I'm not sure people will benefit from us bickering about it for 17 more pages.

I believe the timing of when a proper understanding of the sequence of eschatologic events comes around is directly related with the timing of when a proper understanding of what gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world dawns. I believe so because the verses for preaching the gospel and the setting up of the AoD are beside each other. Matt 24:14, 15.

Since Luther, the gospel the world knows is because Adam sinned, people are born spiritually dead in sin and hence APART from Christ; and UNLESS they believe in and accept Jesus as their personal Savior, people cannot be In Christ and therefore stays APART from Christ.  This, to me, is against what Christ said that APART from Him man can do NOTHING because in effect, the preachers are indirectly saying that while yet APART from Christ people can do SOMETHING to be In Christ: believe, repent and accept the gift of salvation.

I believe that when Adam sinned, God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world, and reinstated Adam to his pre-fall status, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. That saving act made Adam to be In Christ.  With Adam In Christ, all his descendants are born In Christ. Being In Him, they are part of His Body and therefore heaven-bound UNLESS blotted out from the book of life when they die for not overcoming evil with good while alive.

Believing is simply overcoming the evil of unbelief. I teach people to believe that they already are in Christ (grace-based salvation), instead of telling them to believe so they can be In Christ (works-based salvation).

[Dave Watchman]

On 6/21/2016 at 8:41 PM, Geoarrge said:

There is still nothing to establish that the AoD doesn't appear more than once. It may be "set up in the holy place" once, but that doesn't mean it can't appear earlier without being set up in the holy place,

The problem with the futurist interpretation is that if it is correct, it leaves not much to discuss, because it tends to be impenetrable to present day speculation. 

 

I think it's confusing because there are two different AoD's mentioned by the prophet Daniel but Jesus was only talking about one of them, our end time one in Matthew 24. Luke 21 "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" is the AoD from Daniel 11:31 but that's not the thing Jesus is warning the last generation to watch out for in Matthew 24.

The main similarity between the two AofD's is that the 1st century Christians were able to "see" it standing in the holy place so we also should be able to "see" it standing in the holy place where it ought not to be.

 

I was trying to find the accurate dates of the various sieges by Cestius, Vespasian and Titus. I found this page with a nice graphic and if the dates are right we might have some time between the sighting and the time to flee.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/jerusalem-fall.html

 

And if that parallel extends to our end time AoD, we might have 12 to 18 months between the initial sighting until the time to flee. Unless the dates on that page are not accurate.

 

I think the AoD is set to happen at a predetermined date because it would seem to be an answer to the question: "How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? From the day that it's set up we can then count 1290 days to the end.

 

So why would we pray that it's not in winter or on the Sabbath if the Lord knows the day is fixed?

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

I think it's confusing because there are two different AoD's mentioned by the prophet Daniel

Oh? Can you specify the verses you are referring to, please?

[Samie]

Oh I see, one you referred to is Dan 11:31, and the other could be Dan 12:11?

For me, they're one and the same AoD.

[Samie]

11 minutes ago, Samie said:

For me, they're one and the same AoD.

You may want to read my brief explanation here.

[Dave Watchman]

14 hours ago, Samie said:

Oh I see, one you referred to is Dan 11:31, and the other could be Dan 12:11?

For me, they're one and the same AoD.

Problem is one of them has to be Jerusalem surrounded by armies where Cestius stood in the Levite land, the "holy place".

The other I have penciled in 1290 days before the end of these wonders.

The two of them are 1950 years apart.

 

[Dave Watchman]

14 hours ago, Samie said:

You may want to read my brief explanation here.

 

I know the #Quvi (shiqquts) story and I've spent two days delving into it. I've even searched the original Hebrew text from the du Tillet Matthew for the word Jesus used in the Olivet and I know some translations come right out and use the word "statue". Plus I'm fighting against a headwind of the Hal Lindsey style which is also looking for a statue set up in a rebuilt temple. But in this case the context has to rule for me and there is also a time component right now so until that runs out I have to stick to my knitting. But be of good cheer, I might come over to your team someday soon.

 

I'll admit that I have a poor understanding of Daniel 11. But I'm reasonably sure that the verse 31 AofD was the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem. Was there any mention of a "holy place" there? I didn't think so.

 

When Cestius stood outside the city wall, he was standing in the Levite land that was given to them by God. That was a "holy place".

 

When Moses and Joshua were told to remove the sandals from their feet, where they stood was a "holy place".

 

When the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, a place prepared by God is a "holy place".

 

I just can't see, after the curtain was torn by God, how any rebuilt temple could ever be a "holy place".

 

The King of the north is complex. He is Lucifer and Abbadon. The King of Destruction. He comes from out of one of them, out of one of the four winds of Heaven. The north wind. The Bad wind. He's called the Assyrian because Assyria was to the north in proximity to old Israel. You should be able to find all the OT verses referring to Divine Destruction coming down from the north. Nebuchadnezzar came down from the north and wiped out Jerusalem.

"For I am bringing disaster from the north, even terrible destruction." ... Set up the banner in Zion: come together, do not delay: for I bring evil from the north wind, ...

"Then the LORD said, "This means destruction will break out from the north on all ... cry, O city; Melt away, O Philistia, all of you; For smoke comes from the north, ...

"Egypt is like a very fair heifer, but destruction cometh; it cometh out of the north.

"Then the LORD said to me, "Out of the north the evil will break forth on all the inhabitants of the land.

And notice during a time of restoration God removes the northerner:  

“I will remove the northerner far from you, and drive him into a parched and desolate land, his vanguard into the eastern sea,

So calling him the Assyrian or the King of the North is like calling him the King of Destruction or Abbadon or Apollyon  because any way you slice it he is Lucifer the Destroyer. When we get to verse 36 he's going to call fire down from heaven, claim to be God, demand worship and then destroy one third of the people living on this planet. I don't think he'll be entering into any peace talks.

"They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

Our end time man of sin does not have an earthly origin, he comes from the north wind of heaven. Out of one of them (the four winds of heaven) came a little horn that grew toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land which is west. That means he comes from the north (wind of heaven).

This is a similar concept to the drying up of the great river Euphrates that prepares the way for the coming of the Kings from the East which will be bad news for the man of sin. The Euphrates river was a large natural encumbrance preventing invading armies from the north coming down into Israel. When this river dries up the green light is given for destruction to come from the north wind which is a bad wind.

Good guys come from the East:

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, with the seal of the living God

"For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

"But news from the east and the north shall alarm him, and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction.

Kings from the East: God the Father and God the Son.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Dave Watchman said:

But I'm reasonably sure that the verse 31 AofD was the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem.

Jesus explained that the setting up of the AoD will trigger the great tribulation.  I don't think the great tribulation occurred in the 1st century or Jesus should have long returned.  Remember, there can only be one great tribulation which will occur shortly before Jesus comes again. Hence only one AoD to trigger it.  And Jesus said this AoD is spoken of by Daniel the prophet.  This to me simply means Daniel's AoD - discussed in Dan 11 & 12 - is THE one Jesus was talking about. 

The king of Dan 11:21 who is responsible for the setting up of the AoD in v31 will continue his exploits until the second coming depicted in Dan 12:1, 2 where mention is made of the time of trouble which also is the great tribulation. I have no doubts the AoD in Dan 11 is the AoD Jesus spoke about.  But of course, I respect your position.

[Dave Watchman]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

Jesus explained that the setting up of the AoD will trigger the great tribulation.  I don't think the great tribulation occurred in the 1st century or Jesus should have long returned.  Remember, there can only be one great tribulation which will occur shortly before Jesus comes again. Hence only one AoD to trigger it.  And Jesus said this AoD is spoken of by Daniel the prophet.  This to me simply means Daniel's AoD - discussed in Dan 11 & 12 - is THE one Jesus was talking about. 

The king of Dan 11:21 who is responsible for the setting up of the AoD in v31 will continue his exploits until the second coming depicted in Dan 12:1, 2 where mention is made of the time of trouble which also is the great tribulation. I have no doubts the AoD in Dan 11 is the AoD Jesus spoke about.  But of course, I respect your position.

He said when you "see" the AoD, for then there will be great tribulation. So I read it at the start on day 1 of the 1290 along with the taking away of the daily. Then 1290 days latter is the answer to the question: "how long shall it be until the end of these wonders". I think some read that the other way around but the AoD can't signal the tribulation if it comes on the last day. I agree that our end time AoD will trigger the great tribulation. But I'm not sure of how much time the will be before it starts.

And I'm not sure that I want to convince you that Daniel made mention of two of them, AoDs that is. And I respect your view as well. Enough so that I've turned again to consult my favorite prophecy guide, because I want the more sure word. It still looks like verse 21 falls in the years of Tiberius and Augustus Caesar. Then after verse 31, which still looks like the destruction of Jerusalem, it then runs all the way through the Fox Book middle ages until verse 35 where we have:

"even to the time of the end: because it is [ yet ] for a time appointed

So it still looks to me like our appointed time of the end comes after verse 35 and doesn't begin until verse 36, but even with all my prophecy guides, I am no authority. I remember reading somewhere that the 1st century Christians were able to read along though Daniel 11 and follow all those regional wars leading up to verse 31. Like watching a forest fire get closer and closer, by the time Cestius stood outside those walls, they would have had no doubt about fleeing that city.

When Jesus said:

 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel,

[standing in the holy place]

(let the reader understand),

I think He was talking about Daniel 12:

 

"And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.

 

Because Jesus was talking about the end of the world at the mount called Olivet and this abomination would not be set up until 1290 days before the end of the world comes. Then 1290 days after the thing is set up will be immediately after the tribulation of those days. The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it's light. And it's the one that will maketh desolate, and the land will vomit out it's inhabitants.

 

Plus Jesus was talking about "see"ing the thing standing in a "holy place".

Standing in the "holy place", standing where it ought not to be. That 1st century temple wasn't holy anymore when Cestius or Titus stood there but the "earth" around the outer perimeter of the city wall was. If the Christians had waited until the Romans broke through the outer wall of the city and stood in some part of the temple it would have been too late for them to run. The only place that could even remotely be considered "holy" at that time after the curtain was rent was the land given by God to the Levites. This was the earth 1500ft outward from the perimeter of the Jerusalem's wall. Back in the day they apparently called it "the suburbs". It was the land given by God to the Levites for gardening and cattle grazing, so then by default it would become a "holy place".


Numbers 35:4

And "the suburbs" of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.


From Bible Gateway:

Had the Levites been a monastic order, such information would not have been necessary. But they were a tribe of families, and as such they were in need of real estate and land on which to graze their beasts.
Each city was to have pastureland that formed a square of 3,000 feet per side and whose perimeter was 1,500 feet in every direction from the town wall. Altogether, these allotments would represent fifteen square miles, or about .1 percent of the land of Canaan.

So what I did was to relax my own criteria and consider other possibilities for what might be a "holy place" in our appointed time of the end. If the Roman army could be considered to be standing in a "holy place" because that earth was land given to the Levites by God, there might be other "holy places" that we've overlooked. After all, the NT Script does NOT say: "when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the temple". When God does a thing it becomes "holy", not that the thing is holy so that God does it. Remember when the earth where they were standing became "holy" for Moses and Joshua?

"Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground"- Exodus 3:5

 

"The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so" - Joshua 5:15

 

That "earth" would become a "holy place" where they were "standing" because God made it so.

"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days"

 

"But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth"

 

If God does a thing like this it by default becomes holy. So I read "a place prepared by God" as being a "holy place" as it was not accidental or random human chance that the woman found this place. I'm saying that this "earth" from Revelation 12, which is a "place" prepared by God, by default has become a "holy place" and it's a place where this abomination should not "stand". The Adventist Historicism approach should have a pretty good chance at figuring this out. In 1798 General Berthier helped put an end to 1260 years of papal persecution. And right away the "earth" was all ready to help the woman by opening it's mouth and swallowing a flood that the dragon spewed out of his mouth. I'm saying that if we find where this "earth" is who helped that woman, we've found the "holy place".

 

Because it was God who gave the woman the two wings of the great eagle and took her to a place that He prepared for her where the earth opened it's mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out. That's why this abomination, of all the places it could be, is standing where it "ought not to be". - in a place prepared for her by God.

 

 

 

Larry Wilson, on Daniel 11:

 

11:21 “Tiberius, a contemptible person who will not come through the royal line, will succeed Augustus Caesar. Augustus will adopt Tiberius and thus, he will become the legal heir to the throne. Tiberius Caesar will take the throne of the kingdom without conflict. In fact, he will seize it through intrigue and the help of his manipulating mother, Livia.

 

11:28 “Augustus will return to his own country after the Battle of Actium with great wealth from Egypt. Years later (A.D. 66), your people, those who are trustees of God’s holy covenant, will revolt against the emperor, Nero. Nero will send his trusted general, Vespasian, to attack many rebellious cities, including Jerusalem. Nero will commit suicide in June A.D. 68 and Vespasian will suddenly lift the siege around Jerusalem and return to his own country to take Nero’s throne.

 

11:29 “During April, A.D. 70, Titus, the inexperienced son of Vespasian, will invade the south. This time the result will be different than before.

11:30 Countries with many ships from the western coastlands of Africa and Egypt will fight against him, and he will lose his desire to fight them. Instead of returning home, Titus will turn his frustration and fury towards the rebellious city of Jerusalem. Titus will need to win a battle in order to avoid shame and derision when returning to Rome. The Romans will harbor a special hatred for the Jews and Titus will set siege against Jerusalem. He will only spare the lives of Jews who renounce their religion.

11:31 Titus will conquer the city. He will burn the city and the Romans will completely destroy the temple complex which the Jews will think is impregnable. Daily services will never be conducted in the temple again. Titus will bring Jerusalem and those people who live there to an end. All of Israel’s genealogical records will be destroyed in the fire. God declares this future account before it happens so the saints will know that His Word will not fail. The wrath that was promised in His covenant with Israel will surely come to pass.Rome will destroy Israel. Jerusalem will be overrun with wars and desolations until Jesus returns because Israel will violate the grace that was granted them for seventy weeks.”

https://www.wake-up.org/end-times-prophecy/jesus-final-victory-book/prophecy-5-epilogue-wars-between-the-north-south.html#ref39