ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 "I don't interpret Scriptures, as others do. I just believe what the Bible says." Seriously? That is the MOST self serving, boastful, prideful statement I've seen in awhile around here. It's laughable. ANY of us could say the same thing, it's totally meaningless! The mental image I associated with that was the jock at college with the jacket that said, "Big Man on Campus". What we DO know: The King in verse 21 dies a natural death of old age and the prophecy continues on without him, for a couple of thousand years. As for your interpretation, Sorry, brother, but I really cannot keep up with what the Bible does not say. AoD, 508 AD, said it many times now, guess you missed it? The AoD will continue until the second coming. The beast powers wound is healing and she will once again endeavor to kill the Saints. As she did for 1260 years, the dark ages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 "I don't interpret Scriptures, as others do. I just believe what the Bible says." Seriously? That is the MOST self serving, boastful, prideful statement I've seen in awhile around here. It's laughable. ANY of us could say the same thing, it's totally meaningless! The mental image I associated with that was the jock at college with the jacket that said, "Big Man on Campus". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Regarding the abomination of desolation, he who claims to be an exegete of God's word is not at liberty to attach his own meaning to the Hebrew word "shiqquts" from which the translation "abomination" is derived. As used in the OT, "shiqquts" refers to an idol or graven image representing pagan deity. In this connection, only the image of the beast in Rev 13 fits biblical specification as fulfillment of the AoD. I had already earlier shown from Scriptures that the king of v21 = man of sin = the beast of Rev 13. When his image is set up, the great tribulation starts and the 2nd Coming is just around the bend. It's what the Bible says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 "It's what the Bible says." Therein lays your problem, it's your INTERPRETATION of what the bible says. The elasticity of the word, in many cases, makes it impossible to simply read it and take it at face value. Daniel talked of rams and goats, they weren't literally animals you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 "It's what the Bible says." Therein lays your problem, it's your INTERPRETATION of what the bible says. The elasticity of the word, in many cases, makes it impossible to simply read it and take it at face value. Daniel talked of rams and goats, they weren't literally animals you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 "It's what the Bible says." Therein is your problem, it's your INTERPRETATION of what the bible says. The elasticity of the word, in many cases, makes it impossible to simply read it and take it at face value. Daniel talked of rams and goats, they weren't literally animals you know. If you want to understand prophecy then you must follow the rules. Just as math has rules so does end time prophecy. One of those rules is IF it is a symbol, then the text will tell you what the symbol means. If it does not tell you what the symbol means, then it is exactly what is written. If you want to know the truth, then play by the rules: go here to see them: http://web.mac.com/spiritoftruth/STM/Mus...aff_Writer.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Absolutely!!! As you have noticed, the bible interprets itself. How is it then that we have a 1,000 different Christian Churches, each with their own interpretation? Thank God He has sent us a messenger to help us correctly interpret scripture. Those who reject that messenger, your on your own, just like the rest of those Christian Churches struggling to understand. Good luck with that Samie,or should I say "Brother"? Brother, interesting word choice there Samie, did you learn that from a Publican? The way you use it it just drips with piety. It matches your jacket well too, "Big Man on Campus". Please, spare me the pious attitude. Lots of people have rules for all kinds of things, that doesn't make them right. Myself, I prefer the rules that William Miller employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The answer to that question (1000 different denominations)is that they all follow Paul's words and not the words of Jesus. Paul admitted he would say one thing to the Gentiles and another to the Jews and was a liar. Therefore one can choose what ever they want to believe from his words--as they do here on the forum--to show that what they believe is found in the bible. Problem is, it may or may not agree with the words of Jesus. People choose what they want to believe from the words of Paul. Paul clearly said not to have women teach or exercise authority over a man--but make them remain quiet. Yes people here use EGW's words to teach them--a complete violation of God's word IF you believe that the words of Paul are God's inspired words! (See 1Tim.2:12) What Paul said is clear and simple. Yet Adventists pick and choose what they want to have as God's words in the bible! How silly is this? This is only ONE example as I could list hundreds of such controdictions from Paul's words. So don't get me started! But try that by using ONLY the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses and you can't do it! I tried, why don't you too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I DO use "only the words of Jesus", as presented by His various spokes persons through the ages! From Moses to Ellen White! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Oh, oh, oh... Please just post relevant issues and don't derail the thread. The Lord has really not given unto men the capability to delve into the intent of the heart of another. My use of 'brother' comes from a pure intention. You would have noticed my position that on the cross God transformed humanity into the body of Christ (see Eph 2:11-19), making us all one in Christ, and hence 'brothers'. BTW, ClubV12, can you just address what you still need to address relative to your attempt at showing your position is a "Thus saith the Lord"? But if you feel you don't want to continue, so be it. I won't press you with the issue, brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Regarding the abomination of desolation, he who claims to be an exegete of God's word is not at liberty to attach his own meaning to the Hebrew word "shiqquts" from which the translation "abomination" is derived. As used in the OT, "shiqquts" refers to an idol or graven image representing pagan deity. In this connection, only the image of the beast in Rev 13 fits biblical specification as fulfillment of the AoD. I had already earlier shown from Scriptures that the king of v21 = man of sin = the beast of Rev 13. When his image is set up, the great tribulation starts and the 2nd Coming is just around the bend. It's what the Bible says. Relative to the above, the interpretation that the AoD is the Papacy just can't fit because the Papacy is neither an idol nor a graven image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I DO use "only the words of Jesus", as presented by His various spokes persons through the ages! From Moses to Ellen White! Amen brother! Ellen White was an eye witness also. She even saw what heaven looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 It is useless to continue a discussion of Daniel 11 as long as you are convinced the prophecy, which covers thousands of years, suddenly stops at verse 21. Daniel is showing the future, he is covering thousands of years. He starts in chapter 11 which continues into chapter 12, the first four verses. Daniel did not make that break in the story line, "man" did. You can see the flow of history right through to chapter 12:1-4. He is looking into the far distant future and telling of the very end of time last day events right to the second coming. Even in verse 22 he has already moved decades beyond verse 21. Julius, Ceaser, Tiberius, whatever King you want to put in there, is long dead by verse 22. What IS verse 22? Two things: The crucifixtion AND the coming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Some 30 or 40 years AFTER the reign of the King in verse 21. The prophecy continues, in verse 40 t0 45 the time line is now OUR TIME! What is happening RIGHT NOW, which to Daniel was the future, which to us may well be tommorow! Past that the time line continues, Jesus is on the verge of returning. If you STOP the timeline at verse 21, make it ALL happen in one mans lifetime, then we have nothing else to consider. If we can't agree on that fundamental aspect of Daniel 11, were done. That would be the viewpoint of a PRETERIST essentially, a view point I utterly reject, for they, like you, refuse to see the great length of time the prophecy includes. Good point RLH, Ellen White was an actual "eye witness"! Interesting, Daniel was also an "eye witness" to many future events. You know in BOTH cases, it was not immediately clear to either one WHAT they see, but they saw it. The understanding came, if it came at all, in due time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It is useless to continue a discussion of Daniel 11 as long as you are convinced the prophecy, which covers thousands of years, suddenly stops at verse 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I DO use "only the words of Jesus", as presented by His various spokes persons through the ages! From Moses to Ellen White! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Anyone who believes he is among the people Sister White spoke God will have in these last days who will "maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms", then he should not drag her writings on any doctrinal issue. We are in this period of Revival and Reformation, and in order to attain this objective, we must ensure our position is in full accord with what Scriptures say. Hear what Sister White says: {PK 626.1} Quote: Christians should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise, and this preparation they should make by diligently studying the word of God and striving to conform their lives to its precepts. The tremendous issues of eternity demand of us something besides an imaginary religion, a religion of words and forms, where truth is kept in the outer court. God calls for a revival and a reformation. The words of the Bible and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit. May each one concerned comply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 I DO use "only the words of Jesus", as presented by His various spokes persons through the ages! From Moses to Ellen White! Amen brother! Ellen White was an eye witness also. She even saw what heaven looks like. Thank you Richard, that came right at a time I needed a good laugh! Yes, I read about her 'trip' to heaven and it is about the same as what Paul said 2Cor. 1-6 and here: http://www.gnosis.org/library/revpaul2.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I make no apologies for use of the work of Ellen White as a commentator on the bible. Only a fool would limit himself as to the counsel of others to arrive on the correct interpretation of scripture. And we DO see that on occasion for some on this forum. Foolishly making claims that all they need is the bible and the bible alone and the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret scripture. Won't happen, thats not how the Holy Spirit works. Any man that sets himself up as thee sole source of interpretation is in a delusion. Scripture is not given to one man to interpret. Imagine a research scientist blowing off his colleagues, the work done before him, ignoring history, it is incomprehensible to take such a position. Everyone will use some source, some commentary, some colleague, some Pastor, some history books. And when your done with your research, as I am done with you Samie, you can stand on the bible and the bible alone to make your case. Whether it's verse 22, 23, 24 or down the line, the point you can't seem to grasp is that "time" is moving forward at a very fast clip in Daniel 11. Daniel may jump ahead only a few decades, or a few centuries at any given place. Verse 22 is an anchor point, the death of Jesus, we know that was in AD 31. WHO was King (Ceaser) at the time of Jesus' death. Verse 22, also talks about a flood. Now I can take two positions on that, primarily I think it refers to Jerusalem, 70 AD. But I do leave room for an alternate interpretation. Verse 23, 24, etc. moving on.... Different players, different people, different times. The plain "thus saith the Lord" is in the CONTEXT of what Daniel is doing. Revealing prophecy that covers thousands of years, it doesn't stop at verse 21, it continues to the end of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I make no apologies for use of the work of Ellen White as a commentator on the bible. Only a fool would limit himself as to the counsel of others to arrive on the correct interpretation of scripture. And we DO see that on occasion for some on this forum. Foolishly making claims that all they need is the bible and the bible alone and the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret scripture. Won't happen, thats not how the Holy Spirit works. Any man that sets himself up as thee sole source of interpretation is in a delusion. Scripture is not given to one man to interpret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 William Miller's rules did not include Ellen White's writings. Please be consistent. Why critique a Big Man on Campus when you parade the V12 handle - a proud symbol of decadence. The Inquisition rants are tiring. Please be consistent. Would Jesus call himself Bugatti Turbo2? Miller didn't do witchhunts, neither did the Whites. Please be consistent. At least follow the standards you impose on others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 There is a ton of bad science & bad medical research in those nice shiny journals. No standard to follow there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 "Foolishly making claims that all they need is the bible and the bible alone and the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret scripture." Worked for Miller, using a partial concordance. No one has ever reproduced his impact. Despite all the light, commentaries, seminaries, historians, wisdom, riches. Miller was no fool, neither was Martin Luther. Protestants are sola scriptura. Catholics need the Church Fathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Gordon, And in spite of the fact that the Church Fathers did not consider the psuedepigraphal and apocryphal books, canonical, much research reveals that they relied heavily on these extra-biblical myths. In fact, many times you can find phrases they made that are almost word-for-word with these writings. Many of their Futuristic views can be traced back to the Beliar man myth. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Evidence of the pagan roots of that system. Maybe you've seen Jim Arrabito's photos in the New, Illustrated GC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Samie, your Ellen White quote on the bible and the bible only is out of context. She herself, being no idiot, used all that was available to her in studying the bible. Only a fool would not. Gordon, what was it you said William Miller used? A commentary? Well, I guess he was no fool either. I suppose you also aware of another tool Miller employed? The counsel of the brethren, he consulted extensively with others in consideration of his work, as did Ellen White. You guys could learn a lot about basic research principles from a scientist, but hey, go lock yourself in a closet in a closet and consult nothing or no one if you think thats work for you. GORDON CHECK YOUR PM. So you guys don't like my handle ClubV12? Samie aint so great either, I don't like it. You got a problem with that, "brother"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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