Sanctuary

[Plley]

Hi

Coud someone help me to answer that question?... It's on my mind for several years and haven't found the answer yet...

The question is:

Why do we say that Jesus came into the most holy in 1884, because at his death the sanctyary's curtain tore, so it should have no more holy place and holy of holies!! So why?

Thanks!

[Gibs]

The ones up through time on this earth were only a "type" of the true in heaven. That is where Jesus is now, ministering as our High Priest and Mediator in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

When the veil of the temple was torn in half here showed that He had left the earthly and the Jews their house was left unto them desolate.

Da 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

The timing of the vision to start don't come until we get deep into chapter nine of our Bibles and when we read the text we find chapter 9 to be the continuation.

Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There were several decrees given but the one that had any fruitition was BC 457.

Then the math is simple. What is amazing is 457 was a Jubilee yr. and all are new beginnings.

It is a rather long study but is found to be rock solid.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Plley]

Thank you Gibs.

"He had left the earthly and the Jews their house was left unto them desolate."

I understand here a great thing : a break happened between The Heavenly Sanctuary and its "type" on earth at Christ's death. From this moment "type" turned to death too in God's eyes.

That's probably why it will never be rebuilt again.

But then what was the meaning of the veil related to Christ's death, for God only tore it, and didn't break the whole temple, or the columns, or I don't know why not the ark of the covenant?...

(If everything into the earthly temple was left desolate everything should have been torned or broken too)

[Gail]

Bonjour, Piley!

There are a few threads here dealing with the Sanctuary. Feel free to explore! And bless your heart as you seek more information on this most beautiful of doctrines!

It may help you to begin with a study on how the sanctuary in the wilderness worked. As you do, you will begin to see sanctuary references all through the New Testament, especially in Revelation. You will also see how Jesus was represented in the wilderness tabernacle.

Je vous souhaite une joyeuse étude!

[ClubV12]

Piley, welcome to the forum!

In your post you used the phrase, "Why do we say..." From that I assume you mean to imply that you are a Seventh-day Adventist and the "we" represents the official position of the Adventist Church on the question.

You can learn a lot from this web site, but you need to know that not all who profess to be Adventist agree with the doctrines of the Church. There are many who are actual members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church who preach and teach doctrine that is substantially different than the official doctrines "we", the Church, believe. Others merely claim to be Seventh-day Adventists but have left the Church and removed their membership over disputes concerning doctrine.

So, don't be "shocked" when it slowly begins to dawn on you that some view point being expressed that seems to be coming from a "good" source may be substantially misleading. The wolves that Paul warned us would come into the Church, they be here, move with caution and you can learn a LOT. Throw caution to the wind and you might be a wolves dinner.

[Plley]

Merci beaucoup!

I've already started to study it but it seems so complex.. you give me some more courage to continue

[ClubV12]

Hang in there!!! My beliefs as an Adventist have grown stronger as a result of seeing so much error presented around here. It will cause you to carefully consider what YOU really believe, what the Church believes and you will need to develop a sound reason for your faith.

You have embarked on a fabulous journey and an excellent opportunity,,,, now watch your back and start digging a fox hole. :)

[Gail]

Merci beaucoup!

I've already started to study it but it seems so complex.. you give me some more courage to continue

I wish that you lived closer to me. I work at an Adventist bookstore and we have wonderful books written by people whose life work it was to study this exciting topic.

ClubV12, John317, lysimachus and I have completed some study on this subject. Please feel at home to ask questions AND take advantage of what is already posted. As advised, not everyone here agrees and that is fine. That is what makes for interesting discussion.

Que Dieu vous mènne à une plus grande connaissance de Sa parole! Qu'il vous bénisse!

[Plley]

Hi ClubV12,

Yes I am a Seventh Day adventist, I know there are a lot of differences in beliefs, don't know how it is in America, but here in France none of those I know speaks about really adventists beliefs, or just a few. "we" use to speak about things everyone agree, and it so often turns to a "god bless you" or so poor things I feel really "hungry" of something more.

Thank you for your welcome and encouragments,

you're right!

[Gail]

Hunger- AWESOME!!!

[Gibs]

Piley,

The curtain or veil was to hid the view of the most Holy place which God resided. When it was torn in half the peoples eyes could see God was no longer there. Only the high priest could enter before in His presence.

On the Ark of the Covenant at some time it was removed by Jeremy and taken up into the mountain of Moses and hidden in a cave and covered well. He was followed but none of them ever found it. This story is in the Apocrypha.

Ron Wyatt found the Ark but was not able to remove it but discovered that Jesus was crcified above it and when He died the rock was rent and even the large flat rock that Jeremy had place obove the Ark was split open and the water and blood from His pierced side flowed down the crack and blood was dropped on the Mercy Seat. Well all were bought and paid for at that moment.

Go to your search line and type in - - Ron Wyatt meuseum -- and you can then get a link to read about his discoveries.

I'm sure most SDA's receive his testimonies and story. I'll find the link and come back and "edit" and put it in here.

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

I see on the site they have taken off the information that used to be there about the Ark of the Covenant. I at one time had Ron's vhs tapes of it and they showed pictures of the split stone over the ark and dried blood still on the ceiling above on the one side of the rent. It was caving in so bad that he could hardly get there only by crawling but he could see that the Ark was under the split rock over it. He was able to get out but never to get back again.

He then went around up on top and found a dug in hole in the rock right at the rent of the rock where the cross stood.

I do have it all on discs that I purchased as soon as the tapes were not longer available and may still be available. One could call and find out. The quallity of the disc wasn't as good as the original vhs tape though but clear enough to know it is authentic.

The reason he was able to make these discoveries that none else have done he used a clue that was in the Bible as he was a thorugh Bible student.

This is it,

Ga 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Him and his son's almost died from injuries from ones not wanting this information out and by the providence of God did escape with their life. Ron was in bad shape the rest of his shortened life because of it.

Also the Apocrypha reveals that the Ark of the Covenant isn't to be removed until Jesus comes again.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

I'm surprised nobody has corrected him on 1884. It's 1844.

And welcome Plley!! =]

[ClubV12]

"Ron Wyatt found the Ark but was not able to remove it but discovered that Jesus was crcified above it and when He died the rock was rent and even the large flat rock that Jeremy had place obove the Ark was split open and the water and blood from His pierced side flowed down the crack and blood was dropped on the Mercy Seat."

Of course not every Adventist believes that Gib's. Some, including myself, believe that Ron Wyatt was more likely to have been led by an evil angel in his quest. Regardless of the controversy surrounding Wyatt, his alleged story, while interesting, is irrelevant to a study on the Sanctuary message, as is the apocrypha.

When studying the Sanctuary one should first understand the basics. The layout of the "temple", wash basin, alter of sacrafice, shew bread, candle sticks, Holy Place, Most Holy place, etc. etc.

Why the Sanctuary message is SO imporant to present truth and to Adventists is that it is fundamental to the doctrine of the "Investigative Judgment". THAT doctrine is unique to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is the core aspect of 1844 and what that date means to us, as a people. Misunderstanding 1844 was the cause of the Great Disappointment. The day BEFORE the Great Disappointment there were around 50,000 "Adventists" (people looking for the Advent of Christ, the second coming). The day AFTER the Great Disappointment there were perhaps fifty! The disappointment was that "great".

A man named Hiram Edson was the first one to understand and grasp what had happened. That Jesus had moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in HEAVEN. The earthly sanctuary was modeled after the sanctuary in heaven. When Jesus died, the time of the earthly sanctuary was ended. When Jesus acended He entered into the heavenly HOLY PLACE as our High Priest. There, as had been the case on earth, the High Priest ministers before God on behalf on the body of believers. That work continues, Jesus interceding between fallen man and a Holy God that we might not be consumed by the glory of His pure being. Sin cannot exist in the presence of a Holy God, it and all that is associated with it, would be consumed. Jesus is our only hope!

1844, the final phase of intecession, Jesus moves into the Holy Place, as the High Priest did on earth for the final removal of sin from the camp. That final removal of sin, the investigation, the final judgment of all mankind, of all who ever lived is now under way. Soon, that work will be completed and when it is, He will come for His people.

[Lysimachus]

ClubV12,

I am a thorough Ron Wyatt fan. No way was an evil angel involved. His doctrine is in total compliance with our Sanctuary Doctrines. In fact, what he discovered CONFIRMS our doctrines.

I used to moderate the official Ron Wyatt Museum website Forum at www.WyattMuseum.com. We had to take it down though for certain reasons. I spent years researching Ron Wyatt's discoveries.

It was his study of the Spirit of Prophecy that lead him to find all 5 archaeological locations. He read Patriarchs and Prophets, and that's what lead him to the true Red Sea Crossing Site and Sodom and Gomorrah.

For the first time in about 15 years, Turkey has just given the "okay" for Ross Paterson to have full control of the Noah's Ark site, and now they are going to do archaeological escavation there soon.

Be read for some big surprises.

The world has derided Ron Wyatt and thought he was a maniac, but the world I believe is going to see that God was able to lead a little amateur like Ron to make the biggest Biblical discoveries in the world.

What's great about this is that God lead an ADVENTIST, who was rock-solid in our sanctuary doctrines--(he had no offshoot beliefs)--to make these discoveries. Of all people, an Adventist!

You're going to have to put a little faith in me on this one ClubV12. Don't be so quick to dismiss Ron Wyatt. You have no idea what you're up against if you do.

I have written at least 300 pages worth in his defense.

And you know how well I am grounded in our sanctuary doctrines. So if I tell you that Ron's understanding of the Ark of the Covenant in no way conflicts with our sanctuary doctrines, you should contemplate that maybe you simply have a misunderstanding of Ron Wyatt and what he believed. ;-)

[Gibs]

I just want to let be known as I went and looked the read in the Apocrypha is 2 Maccabees the second chapter.

And if I was the one with the wrong date, it is 1844 and I may have but if so it was from not catching I had made a typo.

That read there helps put it all together.

Also folks Ron Wyatt was a Sabbatht keeper. You will be blessed by his discoveries.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

Ron Wyatt came to a church I was attending awhile back just before he died and he basically went thru his whole discovery of the Ark of the Covenant.

He mentioned the crack in the ceiling and the blood falling on the mercy seat and how the tablets of stone actually looked like they were written by someone's finger(God) - the details were the same as on his website except for one thing.

He said that when he went into the chamber there were angels guarding the sanctuary furniture and especially the Ark of the Covenant. I can’t remember if he said there were two or four but he definitely said that he talked to them and they said that those things would never be brought out until it was the right time.

I checked his website and he didn’t say anything like this there and I was wondering if anyone else had heard this story?

[skyblue888]

At His ascension Jesus entered the Holy Place of the sanctuary above to begin His work of intercession. He ascended up on High to begin the work of atonement. In 1844 He passed from the Holy to the Most Holy Place. He did not stop pleading His merits in our behalf but the work of investigative judgment began first with the professed people of God from Adam to that time and it would have passed on to the living if the work of preaching the third angel's message had been finished. See The Great Controversy,457,458.

Regarding the work of intercession, What has Christ been pleading before the Father ever since His ascension until now?

"The intercession of Christ in our behalf is that of presenting His divine merits in the offering of Himself to the Father as our substitute and surety; for He ascended up on High to make atonement for our transgression." E.G. White, Faith & Works,105.

He has been and still is pleading His divine merits before the Father in our behalf, claiming the gift of the Holy Spirit that He may pour this most excellent gift upon us.

What is our part then?

The Gospel is revealed, not to those who think they are rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, but to the poor in spirit, (see D.A.300) those who know that they cannot possibly save themselves or of themselves do any righteous action. (See M.B.7)

To them the gracious invitation is given:

"Present your case (sinful, helpless, dependent) before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's croos." F.W.106. *parenthesis supplied

For "Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744.

Then the Holy Spirit brings the righteousness of Christ into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. See T.M.92.

This is the third angel's message in clear, distinct lines. See T.M.93.

This is their (poor in spirit) lifebusiness, looking to Jesus and accepting His merits which it is their privilege to claim. Unless they do this daily, they cannot be saved. See T.M.93.

sky

[Plley]

ClubV12,

When you say "Sin cannot exist in the presence of a Holy God" How do you explain that the Heavenly sanctuary was'nt purified yet before 1844? Was Heaven dirty with sin before 1844?

[Plley]

Thank you Sky for your explaination and quotations, but what is the real difference for us in human's lives before 1844 and after?

(By the way... I'm not a brother but a sister!!)

[Gail]

Piley, as in the old sanctuary which was a type (representation) of the true one in heaven, the blood drops were the record of sins that were confessed and covered by faith in Jesus through the sacrifices that the people offered. Those drops, those records of sins confessed, stayed in the sanctuary until they were cleaned out once a year on the Day of Atonement.

Heaven, while it doesn't have "sin," has books- books of remembrance of people coming to God, confessing and being forgiven. They are books of record. The forgiven ones are covered with the blood of Jesus.

In the Judgment it is determined who is covered by the blood of a Saviour and who isn't, whose allegiance is to God and whose isn't. Those who have accepted salvation are given a "robe of righteousness," so to speak, Christ's righteousness, and are accounted not only forgiven but worthy of a heavenly home.

The Judgment is not so much for God's use as for His glory- the proof that all were judged righteously.

"Hebrews 9:27-

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

[Gail]

Pleased to meet you, SISTER Pliny! :)

[skyblue888]

Simply means that all the sins that are confessed are sent beforehand to judgment. They are recorded there and forgiven but they are not canceled. When Jesus shall make the final atonement they will be blotted out unless the record reveals unconfessed sins or sins that had been confessed but not overcome.

This blotted out of these records from these sins is the cleansing of the sanctuary in Heaven.

sky

[skyblue888]

Thank you Sky for your explanation and quotations, but what is the real difference for us in human's lives before 1844 and after?

(By the way... I'm not a brother but a sister!!)

Sorry sister.

The difference is that in order to pass the judgment of the living which will take place at the end of the loud cry when the mission of the Gospel is completed, we must reflect Christ's character fully. Through faith in the merits of Christ, during the later rain to the church and loud cry to the world, the poor in spirit will grow up into Christ until the full corn of His character is in the ear (Mark 4:26-29) and then probation will close and the people of God will be prepared to enter into the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death.

sky

*This investigation will reveal whether we have the wedding garment (robe of Christ's righteousness) on or not. We will not receive it then but must have put it on before that time.

[Woody]

ClubV12,

When you say "Sin cannot exist in the presence of a Holy God" How do you explain that the Heavenly sanctuary was'nt purified yet before 1844? Was Heaven dirty with sin before 1844?

The dirt in Heaven has been the rebellion of Lucifer. But praise God sister - our Lord is working on getting that cleaned up. It does take time to do it right however.