Sanctuary

[ClubV12]

Marcos (Lysimachus), I am fully aware that Ron Wyatt has a large following among Adventists, I'm not one of them! I have studied his work, it is fascinating, for me, it is not present truth and remains a controversy I can do without.

As it concerns someone early in their study of the sanctuary it is irrelevant, a side issue, a red herring, not pertinent to the central study.

Piley, sin simply cannot exist in the same time and place, within the presence of the Father. The Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, all one, and yet separate, don't get to hung up on the details follow the train of thought here....

When Jesus died on the cross He was bearing all the sins of this world, they were placed on Him. All though spotless in character, He willingly accepted this horrific burden. When the Father drew near to Christ, hanging on the cross, the Father could not "in spirit and truth" come "close" to Jesus because of those sins. Sin, simply, cannot co-exist in the presence of the Father. THAT is why when Jesus cried out, "My God, my God (Daddy, Daddy) why have you forsaken me?" The Fathers heart was breaking just as sadly as was Jesus' heart. How terrible for the Father to hear His Son pleading for Him to come near,,, but He could not.

This is perhaps the most significant event in the bible that portrays just how much God, all the God head, HATE sin! It cannot be tolerated or allowed, SOMEBODY has to pay, SOMETHING has to be done. Jesus offered Himself as a sacrafice to pay the price of sin, even though it meant for the first time in eternity, He would literally be "separated" from His Father.

Piley, Marcos and I don't always agree on every aspect and detail of different things. But I assure you, we are ONE in the spirit of supporting, advancing and standing up for the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Marcos is a counselor, a brother, you can place your confidence in.

[Gordon1]

For the first time in about 15 years, Turkey has just given the "okay" for Ross Patterson to have full control of the Noah's Ark site, and now they are going to do archaeological excavation there soon.

That's good news Marcos. But soon becoming a danger zone near the border.

[Gibs]

Here is the stance most SDA's stand behind. EGW here tells it as most believe it.

" In 1844 our great High Priest entered the most holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary, to begin the work of the investigative Judgment. The cases of the righteous dead have been passing in review before God. When that work shall be completed, judgment is to be pronounced upon the living. How precious, how important are these solemn moments! Each of us has a case pending in the court of heaven. We are individually to be judged according to the deeds done in the body. In the typical service, when the work of atonement was performed by the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary, the people were required to afflict their souls before God, and confess their sins, that they might be atoned for and blotted out. Will any less be required of us in this antitypical day of atonement, when Christ in the Sanctuary above is pleading in behalf of his people, and the final, irrevocable decision is to be pronounced upon every case?

What is our condition in this fearful and solemn time? Alas, what pride is prevailing in the church, what hypocrisy, what deception, what love of dress, frivolity, and amusement, what desire for the supremacy! All these sins have clouded the mind, so that eternal things have not been discerned. Shall we not search the Scripture, that we may know where we are in this world's history? Shall we not become intelligent in regard to the work that is being accomplished for us at this time, and the position that we as sinners should occupy while this work of atonement is going forward? If we have any regard for our souls' salvation, we must make a decided change. We must seek the Lord with true penitence; we must with deep contrition of soul confess our sins, that they may be blotted out." {RH, March 22, 1887 par. 10}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Here is the stance most SDA's stand behind. EGW here tells it as most believe it.

" In 1844 our great High Priest entered the most holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary, to begin the work of the investigative Judgment. The cases of the righteous dead have been passing in review before God. When that work shall be completed, judgment is to be pronounced upon the living. How precious, how important are these solemn moments! Each of us has a case pending in the court of heaven. We are individually to be judged according to the deeds done in the body. In the typical service, when the work of atonement was performed by the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary, the people were required to afflict their souls before God, and confess their sins, that they might be atoned for and blotted out. Will any less be required of us in this antitypical day of atonement, when Christ in the Sanctuary above is pleading in behalf of his people, and the final, irrevocable decision is to be pronounced upon every case?

What is our condition in this fearful and solemn time? Alas, what pride is prevailing in the church, what hypocrisy, what deception, what love of dress, frivolity, and amusement, what desire for the supremacy! All these sins have clouded the mind, so that eternal things have not been discerned. Shall we not search the Scripture, that we may know where we are in this world's history? Shall we not become intelligent in regard to the work that is being accomplished for us at this time, and the position that we as sinners should occupy while this work of atonement is going forward? If we have any regard for our souls' salvation, we must make a decided change. We must seek the Lord with true penitence; we must with deep contrition of soul confess our sins, that they may be blotted out." {RH, March 22, 1887 par. 10}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Great quotes Gibs. Thank you. Put side by side with the following ones, we have a great truth:

"The intercession of Christ in our behalf is that of presenting His divine merits in the offering of Himself to the Father as our substitute and surety; for He ascended up on High to make atonement for our transgression." E.G. White, Faith & Works,105.

He has been and still is pleading His divine merits before the Father in our behalf, claiming the gift of the Holy Spirit that He may pour this most excellent gift upon us.

What is our part then?

The Gospel is revealed, not to those who think they are rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, but to the poor in spirit, (see D.A.300) those who know that they cannot possibly save themselves or of themselves do any righteous action. (See M.B.7)

To them the gracious invitation is given:

"Present your case (sinful, helpless, dependent) before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's croos." F.W.106. *parenthesis supplied

For "Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." 5 T 744.

Then the Holy Spirit brings the righteousness of Christ into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. See T.M.92.

This is the third angel's message in clear, distinct lines. See T.M.93.

This is their (poor in spirit) lifebusiness, looking to Jesus and accepting His merits which it is their privilege to claim. Unless they do this daily, they cannot be saved. See T.M.93.

sky

[ClubV12]

Now THERE is a source I can really stand behind! A commentary by Ellen White on the sanctuary, it doesn't get any better than that, short of the word itself!

Well done Gibs, Sky.

Piley asks,

"How do you explain that the Heavenly sanctuary was'nt purified yet before 1844?"

I'm not sure I completely understand the question and others may answer it better. To ME it sounds very much like how was the earthly tabernacle or temple "cleansed of sin" on a daily basis? I'm not sure it was! There was an ANNUAL cleaning, the day of atonement, that is the day, the ONLY day, when the High Priest entered the Most Holy Place. As the earthly is a type of the heavenly, 1844 is when the "day of atonement" began in heaven.

The Day of Atonement was pretty solem, if the people had not confessed and dealt with their "sins" before the High Priest entered the Most Holy, the Priest would be killed by the glory of God. So the whole camp was on "edge" during this most sacred and solem occasion. It comes back to the Father CANNOT co-exist in the presence of sin. Sin will be consumed by glory. The Priest, making atonement for the people, carrying their sins, would likewise be consumed.

[ClubV12]

..of course I had to verify the context, time and place, do some forensics on the quote and....

OK,,,, it was a thing of beauty all around. :)

[tall73]

It is interesting that when Adventists really want to get to the "meat" of what happened in 1844, they start quoting Ellen White.

[tall73]

Plley, here is a text from Hebrews, which discusses Jesus' role in the heavenly sanctuary.

Jesus is at the right hand of God, on the throne of grace and stands ready to help you in time of need. And He has since the first century:

Heb 4:14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

In the old testament sanctuary only one man, the high priest, could go in to the most holy place, and that was only once a year. Leviticus describes how they could not just come in at any time:

Lev 16:2 and the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.

God would appear in a cloud over the mercy seat. They could not just enter any time.

In a sense the sanctuary was like a king's court. The inner sanctuary was like a throne room if you will. If you remember the story of Esther she could not go into the presence of the king except when summoned. The same applied here. God dwelt among the Israelites as their King. They could only approach on His terms. The mercy seat was where He dwelt like a King on the throne.

There are a number of texts that talk about God dwelling above the mercy seat, on the ark:

Ex 25:21 And you shall put the mercy seat on the top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the testimony that I shall give you.

22 There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.

Ex 30:6 And you shall put it in front of the veil that is above the ark of the testimony, in front of the mercy seat that is above the testimony, where I will meet with you.

Num 7:89 And when Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with the LORD, he heard the voice speaking to him from above the mercy seat that was on the ark of the testimony, from between the two cherubim; and it spoke to him.

1Sa 4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh and brought from there the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who is enthroned on the cherubim. And the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.

2Sa 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the LORD of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim.

God dwelt among the people in the sanctuary. It was not like when God walked with Adam and Eve face to face. Sin changed that. They were cast out of the garden. Sinful man could not be in God's immediate presence. The sanctuary was a way for Him to live among sinful man, take care of their sins, and reign as their King.

Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst.

The rites of the priests cleansed the people. The rites of the priest were to remove uncleanness that would defile the dwelling place of God among them:

Lev 15:31 "Thus you shall keep the people of Israel separate from their uncleanness, lest they die in their uncleanness by defiling my tabernacle that is in their midst."

While this system provided cleansing and provided a way for a Holy God to dwell among sinful man, it was not the ideal that only the high priest could enter, and that only once per year, and then only by first offering for his own sin. It showed the radical separation of sinful man from a Holy God.

However, in the New Testament Jesus changed all that. He went as the perfect High Priest, and offered the perfect Sacrifice, in the true heavenly sanctuary, and now we can all go right to Gods presence, to the throne of grace to find help in time of need.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Here Hebrews 10 again elaborates on this new and living way that Jesus opened up for us.

It says we can enter by the blood of Christ. We can draw near with full assurance of faith.

It compares what Christ did for us to the dedication service of the priest. Our hearts have been sprinkled clean, and our bodies washed with pure water. We can go into the presence of the King, and find help in time of need, and grace for our sins.

We have greater access every day to a Holy God in the true sanctuary, than the high priest did at the high point of the old covenant services.

We can go boldly to the throne of grace in time of need--not just with an appointment.

[BobRyan]

Hi

Coud someone help me to answer that question?... It's on my mind for several years and haven't found the answer yet...

The question is:

Why do we say that Jesus came into the most holy in 1884, because at his death the sanctyary's curtain tore, so it should have no more holy place and holy of holies!! So why?

Thanks!

Heb 8 says that if Christ were still on earth He would not be a priest at all.

As you point out - the earthly sanctuary holy and most holy place were put at an end at the cross.

In Hebrews 10 Paul says that on earth - the sacrifices all ended at the cross "He took away the first to establish the second".

In Hebrews 9 Paul points to the innaugural work of Christ in opening the heavenly sanctuary.

In the heavenly model there is only ONE sacrifice and there is only ONE entry into the Heavenly Sanctuary.

But the Bible never says "God cannot move" as we see in Daniel 7 the "Ancient of Days comes" to the court room and so also does the "Son of Man" come to the Ancient of Days in that Most Holy Place court room in 1844.

Paul never says that Christ ignores the work of the Holy Place and the model that God said would represent the work done in heaven -- rather He says Christ is the perfect antitype to that model.

In Heb 7 Paul tells us that it is the HIGH PRIEST that "stand daily offering up sacrifices" on earth - and then informs us in Heb 8 and 9 that Christ is now our High Priest in heaven doing that very thing for us in heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Thank you Gibs.

"He had left the earthly and the Jews their house was left unto them desolate."

I understand here a great thing : a break happened between The Heavenly Sanctuary and its "type" on earth at Christ's death. From this moment "type" turned to death too in God's eyes.

That's probably why it will never be rebuilt again.

But then what was the meaning of the veil related to Christ's death, for God only tore it, and didn't break the whole temple, or the columns, or I don't know why not the ark of the covenant?...

That is not quite correct.

In Matt 23 Christ is pronouncing the curse of Solomon on the Jews - the very same language that Solomon used at the dedication of the temple - declaring that the doom predicted if they were to reject God - was now upon them.

1Kings 9 as I recall. So Christ precedes this with "fill up then the measure of your cup of iniquity" and Paul says in 1Thess 2 that this is exactly what they have done as a nation.

God did not throw the model out the window - rather the model shows the work of Christ in the Gospel in the heavenly sanctuary. And now we are in the Most Holy Place phase - the time of judgment of all mankind.

What is fascinating about this is that even our non-Christian Jewish friends know about this phase of the sanctuary ministry being the phase of judgment.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Hi ClubV12,

Yes I am a Seventh Day adventist, I know there are a lot of differences in beliefs, don't know how it is in America, but here in France none of those I know speaks about really adventists beliefs, or just a few. "we" use to speak about things everyone agree, and it so often turns to a "god bless you"

Sorry to hear about that.

I had heard that in the EU in general a great change has occurred in all Christian churches such that evolutionism has pretty much emptied them out and Europe has moved into a post-Christian era. Canada may be headed down that road soon and If America reaches the 80% acceptance of evolutionism stage - it too will follow that road.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Thank you Sky for your explaination and quotations, but what is the real difference for us in human's lives before 1844 and after?

(By the way... I'm not a brother but a sister!!)

In Rev 15:8 we are told that the heavenly sanctuary system with Christ as High Priest shuts down so that the Rev 16 start of the 7 last plagues of the "wrath of God" can be poured out on the earth.

At that time the saints must be prepared to stand in the sight of a Holy God without a mediator in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest pleading His blood for our sins.

As John says in 1John 2:1 "These things I write to you you sin not but IF anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father .. Christ is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the Whole World".

A statement that is not merely the death of 4 and 5 point Calvinism but also points to the fact that Christ's work as our Advocate in Heaven is the work He does for us in the Sanctuary as our High Priest.

That system will shut down before the 2nd coming AND before the 7 last plagues according to Rev 15.

The only way to survive it is to follow God's Plan step by step. That includes the Joel 2 promise of the latter rain that will come before the Rev 15 event.

Following God's plan also involves acceptance of the 1Cor 12 gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the church - including the gift of Prophecy.

God has sent a Prophet in these last days giving even more details on this subject so that the saints need not be confused.

But "just suppose" that the saints cease to be Bible students, cease to follow God's plan, cease to accept messages given through His prophets? Will that be the "path of success anyway" in true Once-saved-always-saved fashion or will that end up in the Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS to be Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven" problem?

Paul describes it this way "it is not the hearers of the Word of God that are Just before God but the DOERS of the Word of God WILL Be justified ... on that day WHEN God WILL judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Hi

Coud someone help me to answer that question?... It's on my mind for several years and haven't found the answer yet...

The question is:

Why do we say that Jesus came into the most holy in 1884, because at his death the sanctyary's curtain tore, so it should have no more holy place and holy of holies!! So why?

Thanks!

The correct date for the cleansing of the sanctuary is 1844, in accordance with Daniel 9: 24-27 and Daniel 8: 14.

The tearing of the curtain in the earthly sanctuary (Mark 15: 38) didn't affect the heavenly sanctuary except as it showed that the earthly sacrifices and temple rituals had been abolished. The sacrifices had pointed forward to the sacrifice of Christ, and when He ascended to heaven as our High Priest, the work of the earthly priests were no longer of importance. Everything now centers in the mediatorial work of Christ for us in the heavenly sanctuary. This was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 9: 27. Paul also has reference to this in Ephesians 2: 14, 15 and Col. 2: 14.

"When Christ left this earth and went to heaven, He entered upon His ministry, not in the holy places made with hands, but in heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. (Heb. 9: 24, 8) As long as the earthly temple service was conducted, the work in the holy places in the heavenly sanctuary was not carried on (Heb. 9: 9); but when the house was forsaken of its Lord, and the type was fulfilled in the antitype, then the holy places in the heavenly were anointed for the work of the Heavenly Priest, even Jesus Christ (Hebrews 8: 1,2)." See page 305 of a wonderful book, Practical Lessons, by F. C. Gilbert, a converted Jew. This book may be read online:

http://temcat.com/L-1-adv-pioneer-lib/FCGILBER/PracticalLessons.pdf

[John317]

Very well put and apropos.

[John317]

It is interesting that when Adventists really want to get to the "meat" of what happened in 1844, they start quoting Ellen White.

That's because we SDAs believe that Ellen White was God's inspired prophet. While the doctrine itself is supported by the Bible, Ellen White has clearly explained the purpose and meaning of the Investigative Judgment.

[ClubV12]

And lets not forget Hiram Edson and his divine revelation that brought, for the first time since the great disappointment, the meaning of 1844. He preceded Ellen White in that regard.

If we were discussing the Ford Motor Company history, Henry Ford could not be ignored. But a man named Benz, who had a daughter named Mercedes, preceded Henry.

[tall73]

At His ascension Jesus entered the Holy Place of the sanctuary above to begin His work of intercession. He ascended up on High to begin the work of atonement. In 1844 He passed from the Holy to the Most Holy Place.

Could you elaborate on the following statement please?

Christ’s glory did not appear when He was upon this earth. He was then a Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Men hid their faces from Him. But He was following the path God had marked out for Him. Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin. {ST April 19, 1905, par. 4}

When do you see these events happening?

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: tall73

It is interesting that when Adventists really want to get to the "meat" of what happened in 1844, they start quoting Ellen White.

That's because we SDAs believe that Ellen White was God's inspired prophet. While the doctrine itself is supported by the Bible, Ellen White has clearly explained the purpose and meaning of the Investigative Judgment.

Uhh, not true at all, as many Adventists do NOT believe that EGW was God's inspired prophet! Many Adventists don't believe that Paul was God's true apostle by the way they treat His words! He clearly said to make wormen be quiet in church while EGW was anything but.

Hebrews 1:3 clearly says that Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father, but then they conviently ignore this because of the mistaken idea of the IJ--it starting in 1844.

But I know some Adventists that know the words of EGW and Paul are not the same thing as the words spoken by Jesus Christ Himself.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Plley

Hi

Coud someone help me to answer that question?... It's on my mind for several years and haven't found the answer yet...

The question is:

Why do we say that Jesus came into the most holy in 1884, because at his death the sanctyary's curtain tore, so it should have no more holy place and holy of holies!! So why?

Thanks!

The correct date for the cleansing of the sanctuary is 1844, in accordance with Daniel 9: 24-27 and Daniel 8: 14.

The tearing of the curtain in the earthly sanctuary (Mark 15: 38) didn't affect the heavenly sanctuary except as it showed that the earthly sacrifices and temple rituals had been abolished. The sacrifices had pointed forward to the sacrifice of Christ, and when He ascended to heaven as our High Priest, the work of the earthly priests were no longer of importance. Everything now centers in the mediatorial work of Christ for us in the heavenly sanctuary. This was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 9: 27. Paul also has reference to this in Ephesians 2: 14, 15 and Col. 2: 14.

"When Christ left this earth and went to heaven, He entered upon His ministry, not in the holy places made with hands, but in heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us. (Heb. 9: 24, 8) As long as the earthly temple service was conducted, the work in the holy places in the heavenly sanctuary was not carried on (Heb. 9: 9); but when the house was forsaken of its Lord, and the type was fulfilled in the antitype, then the holy places in the heavenly were anointed for the work of the Heavenly Priest, even Jesus Christ (Hebrews 8: 1,2)." See page 305 of a wonderful book, Practical Lessons, by F. C. Gilbert, a converted Jew. This book may be read online:

http://temcat.com/L-1-adv-pioneer-lib/FCGILBER/PracticalLessons.pdf

John317's mistaken in this about becaue Dan. 9:26 and 27 NEVER will happen as that prophecy was IF Dan. 9:24 happened--which it didn't. It's no wonder so many people are now mixed up--but then so was John the Baptist.

At the time Jesus came, Israel still had time left in the Dan. 9:24 prophecy. But Jesus made it clear that they would NOT get rid of sin and seal up the true end time prophecies. (Matt. 21;43) They forget about the dead fig tree--meaning that Israel was toast.

Paul clearly did not know the truth either as he taught that ALL Israel would be saved. (Rom. 11:25-26) It would do people better to study the words of Jesus and the OT to answer questions they have today and do not mess with the words of those who had NO CLUE as to the real truth!

[Lysimachus]

Uhh, not true at all, as many Adventists do NOT believe that EGW was God's inspired prophet! Many Adventists don't believe that Paul was God's true apostle by the way they treat His words! He clearly said to make wormen be quiet in church while EGW was anything but.

Hebrews 1:3 clearly says that Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father, but then they conviently ignore this because of the mistaken idea of the IJ--it starting in 1844.

But I know some Adventists that know the words of EGW and Paul are not the same thing as the words spoken by Jesus Christ Himself.

If they do not believe Ellen G. White to be a truly inspired prophet of God, then they are not true Seventh-Day Adventists. They are evangelicals, along with all the Sunday keepers, in God's eyes. That is my perspective.

Evangelical Christians claim to be "sola scriptura", and that because SDA's rely on the writings of Ellen White, they deprive themselves from rightfully making this claim. But this is not so.

SDA's who believe in the inspiration of Sister White are actually more "sola scriptura" than are the evangelicals who use only the Bible and nothing more.

Why?

Because to use only the Bible means to recognize the Spirit of Prophecy. Thus, when they reject the Spirit of Prophecy as manifested through the writings of Ellen White, they are ignoring parts of scripture that command us to give heed to this gift. Therefore, they are not going by the "Bible and Bible only" like they think they are.

The same as above would be for those who reject Paul.

Also, why do you quote Hebrews, when Paul was most likely the author of Hebrews?

Jesus sitting down at the right hand of the father somehow negates the IJ?

How so?

What about Jesus standing and walking amidst the 7 golden candlesticks in Revelation 1:13; 2:1?

What about Stephen who saw "Jesus standing on the right hand of God" in Acts 7:55,56?

What about Hebrews in other places where it says he is "interceding"?

Jesus "sitting down" is no different than Jesus taking an office of position, similar to a house of delegates taking their seats. They don't necessarily sit on literal chairs, but they take such office of position.

Notice:

"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat." (Matthew 23:2)

Were they literally seated in Moses' seat? Or is this expression talking about an office of position?

[Lysimachus]

And surely I believe Jesus did sit on a literal seat as well for the coronation, but that doesn't mean that He didn't get up and walk around after. Or are you suggesting He's been glued to His chair for 2000 years?

Ridiculous!

Jesus commences His First Apartment ministration after the coronation. It doesn't mean He was always literally walking and standing ONLY in the Holy Place, but His ministration was a Holy Place ministration.

Same in 1844 for the Most Holy Place.

Jesus literally stepped into the Most Holy Place in 1844 to commence a work of Investigative Judgment. But that does not mean that He literally got stuck in that room since 1844. It just means that SINCE 1844, HIS WORK HAS BEEN A MOST HOLY PLACE MINISTRATION--REGARDLESS OF HIS PHYSICAL LOCATION.

[Lysimachus]

People don't get it!

This is why detractors of Adventism and the IJ are SO CONFUSED!

[Dr. Rich]

I'm not confused my friend--you don't have to be either--just know the truth because only it will set you free from sin. The truth is what Jesus said and taught--some day soon you will see what I am talking about!

[ClubV12]

And so it begins,,,, opposing views on not just the details and minor points, as would be expected, but significantly opposing views.

The majority view? The miniority view? The independant view? The many different voices crying, "Here, I have the truth." Some say all they need is the bible and the bible only, much prayer and the Holy Spirits guidance. How can you argue with that! There is much truth therein.

God works through His chosen agencies on earth, His Church, His body of believers. That was the early Church in the New Testament, they were the keepers of truth, it was to them the commission was given, "Go unto all the world". Another Church rose up, Satans counterfit, the Church of Rome, still with us today. It passed laws, worked with the Government to COMPELL people to follow it's rules and enforced them without mercy. Another power, another counterfit, rose up about the same time, Isam. Using the same tactics, enforcment of it's rules by law and under pain of death.

The early Church was almost extinguished, but a great reformation came, Martin Luther, among others, through off the bonds of Governmental rule and laws. From the reformation came the many Churches that we see today. But the reformation stopped growing in the reception of new light, they became comfortable with what they had. In many cases they adopted the same tactics the Roman and Islam powers had used, persecution, even unto death. The early Christian movement in AMERICA threatened death to those colonists that did not worship on Sunday! The reformation came to a screeching halt, they had become like those they had opposed.

But the light of the true Christians, though scattered and dim, was no fully extinguished. God has ALWAYS had a people ready to rise up and carry forward the work, the reformation.

That people emerged from the ashes of the great disappointment of 1844. The reformation was back! "Adventists", those folks looking for the soon Advent of Christ, many biblical scholars the world over searching the scriptures and realizing Daniels 2,300 year prophecy HAD BEEN fulfilled, terminated in 1844. But what did it mean? God had His people, standing in the wings, ready to receive new light. Hiram Edson, Joseph Bates, James White and many others who refused to give up their faith. From this small core group of many different faiths, Baptists, Methodist, Lutherans, came that group that would carry forward the truth, Seventh-day Adventists. God's chosen vessel to deliver to the world the last message for mankind, the three angels messages' of Revelation. Fear God for the hour of His judgment is come, 1844.

Today the devil is hard work with a counterfit of God's chosen people, professed Seventh-day Adventists. Nearly identical, preaching much truth mixed with deadly error and false doctrine. In some cases working WITHIN the Church, "moles" the CIA would call them. How will we know? We must know the truth for ourselves. Don't study the counterfit theories, study the real thing, the original and you will be able to spot the counterfit. You can absolutely place your full faith and confidence in the doctrines and OFFICIAL (authorized by the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists) beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

If those laying claim, professing to be Seventh-day Adventists, are teaching a different doctrine, you can rest assured they are a counterfit. Great caution is urged in such a case, even studying these counterfit ideas can lead to your ruin. It's a trap, a bushwhack, a carefully laid snare, like the apple in the garden, it looks good for food, it feels good, the serpent was VERY sincere and had a pleasant voice...

Be not decieved dear reader, stay the course, the doctrines established following 1844 were divinely appointed, the foundation is sure, the pillars of truth stand, the reformation continues. Be wary of those claiming "new light"! If it tears down, removes, displaces those fundamental beliefs, those pillars, you can know they speak not according to the law and the testimony. They are a counterfit. The Church, God's chosen vessel with a special message, "Go unto all the world" will survive, it WILL go through to the end. Don't fall for the counterfits....

[Dr. Rich]

I addressed what was said in Heb. because YOU and most Adventists believe that Paul wrote this and what it clearly states is a 180degree from what EGW wrote. Can't you see that? I clearly said that even Adventists do NOT believe Paul's words are 100% the inspired word of God! Do you allow women to speak in church? WHY? How come you pick and choose what you want to believe? Don't most Adventists do this too? And why don't you pray for the dead too--didn't Paul agree that it was good to do this?

See what I mean? You also choose to belive that Jesus Christ was NOT the end of the law. Why? Didn't the "inspired" word of God (as you believe) say this? Want me to go on with this?