Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 There is a lot of food for thought on here https://www.facebook.com/RadioFreeBabylon If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Born selfish. Jesus saves. Coffee harmful. Apricots good. "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 have never met a selfish baby, we teach them that by example. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Babies are born "evil". The Bible says this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 can you give an example of that in real life? If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 can you give an example of that in real life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 So Jesus as a baby would not have cried if uncomfortable? or if he was hungry? Communicating needs is not a sin, is it? If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 I have seen babies learn hate, bad food choices, treatment of animals, treatment of others... from those who were supposed to "train up a child... etc " If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I'm sorry but I had two babies and I never thought myself as their slave and them the master. When I am 'uncomfortable' in life I cry out to God because He is my heavenly Father and I know He loves me and will help me. Does that make me the master and Him the Slave? I have heard many stories of people who are hungry and cry out to God for food, again does that make them the master and God the Slave? Babies are unable to help themselves and until the day comes when they come out of the womb and can go make themselves a sandwich they cry for our help because they know a loving parent is there to help them not a slave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 So Jesus as a baby would not have cried if uncomfortable? or if he was hungry? Communicating needs is not a sin, is it? Jesus Christ was not a baby born with Adam's sinful nature. It is the sinful nature of the baby that causes the baby to be totally selfish and totally evil. Jesus Christ is the ONLY EXCEPTION to the sinful/selfishness rule that all other babies fall into. Communicating needs in of itself is not a sin. However the baby wants it now regardless of the inconvenience it brings to the lives of others. Babies are totally selfish. Their selfishness is sin. Thus, as the baby gets older s/he learns that others exist and that their selfishness must be moderated. If they have Godly parents they learn that their selfishness not only must be moderated but must in fact be obliterated because they learn that God and God alone is the center and that God gave them life to serve to God and God alone. Thus, a baby learns in a Godly environment that they are not the master and everything else is their slave but in fact things are the other way around. Like Paul they learn to be slaves of God and Jesus Christ. They learn that God/Jesus Christ is the Master and that everything revolves around God and nothing revolves around them. Most of us are still learning this lesson in the School of Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted February 25, 2012 Moderators Share Posted February 25, 2012 Jesus Christ was not a baby born with Adam's sinful nature. That's the view of people who believe that Christ was not born with "original sin." But the Bible teaches that Christ inherited the same nature as His mother Mary was born with. Christ was "the Son of man," that is, the Son of Adam. He was a true descendent of Adam, Abraham, Jacob, and David. Jesus was born of the seed of David according to the flesh. Romens 1: 2. Babies are not condemned for being born with Adam's fallen nature. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I have seen babies learn hate, bad food choices, treatment of animals, treatment of others... from those who were supposed to "train up a child... etc " Babies as they grow older can also learn to intensify this sin by copying others attitudes and behaviors. Environment is as vital in that it either intensifies the heredity of evil or with the Power of God in the parents it can reverse the hereditary evil in the baby. Babies are great copiers. This is why it is sooooooooooo vital for parents to be Godly and to seek God's help constantly in the raising of "HIS CHILDREN". These children are not the property of the parents, they are the property of God (see Ezekiel chapter 16 for how God feels about the children He gave us parents). We are God's caretakers. This is why it is sooooooooo vital that we train "our" children to know God as John chapter seventeen verse three states. We must train them to follow what God expects in absolutely every thing in life. Unfortunately for me I like many others had no parents at all and so had no guidance whatsoever except to be abused on multiple fronts. If it were not for the INFINITE GRACE OF GOD I would not be any where but dead and slated for Hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Yes, we need to be sure not to teach them the sins of sodom English Standard Version (©2001) Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 25, 2012 Administrators Share Posted February 25, 2012 I believe self-centeredness or ego-centrism is being confused with selfishness and dependence and immaturity is being misunderstood as evil. One's sense of self in relationship to others comes with maturity. One cannot be selfish without a sense of otherness. The paradox of maturity is a growth toward independence while developing a greater awareness of and regard for others. Sin stunts growth. "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I'm sorry but I had two babies and I never thought myself as their slave and them the master. When I am 'uncomfortable' in life I cry out to God because He is my heavenly Father and I know He loves me and will help me. Does that make me the master and Him the Slave? I have heard many stories of people who are hungry and cry out to God for food, again does that make them the master and God the Slave? Babies are unable to help themselves and until the day comes when they come out of the womb and can go make themselves a sandwich they cry for our help because they know a loving parent is there to help them not a slave. Of course you never thought of yourself as their slave because you loved your babies and must have enjoyed meeting all their needs. God does this to for you and me. I too felt this same way for my babies. I loved being a dad and still even though they are grown men with their own families. Even today I am still their "servant"/"slave". I will do anything for them and their well being under God. Parents once being parents will forever be parents and the tools of God. Once you have a child God makes you a parent forever without expiration date. The tasks/responsibilities may and will change over time but you never ever cease to be a parent. As parents under God we never ever cease to be responsible to God for the care He expects us to give His Children. Yes, my friend Tasha we are slaves in God's Service to raise His Children as He directs. God is a slave to our needs: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:25-34. God is a "slave" to meet the needs of the whole creation. God expects us to meet the needs of our children so they will not worry about their needs. God is the Ultimate Parent. This is why the Bible calls us His Children. We are to pattern our parenting after the parenting example of God. This is not a "slavery" of evil/subjection, it is a slavery to God and the joy of His Work. Like Paul, who always said he was a slave of Jesus Christ we too are slaves of God in the raising of His children. Now on the other hand, if you are not a slave to God, then the slavery of raising children is very heavy and onerous indeed. This why so many parents today try and opt out of having to do for their children what God requires parents to do. They seek their own pleasure rather than seek God's pleasure. These children grow up being experts in the ways of sin and evil. Someone of something will raise the child whether you do it or not. However, this does not free you from being responsible to God for the outcome of those children. God is going to hold you accountable as a parent for all their evil, whether those children are "saved in His Kingdom or not". It is the most sacred of responsibilities to be a parent. There is no greater responsibility placed on human beings other than their own accountability to God. I have seen many "Christians" including many SDA Church .org parents who found "the work" (being a worker for the SDA Church .org) more important then their responsibilities as parents. This is a very gross sin in the eyes of God. God expects us as His property: 1. to belong to Him in our own accountability as a person. 2. to be responsible for the proper upbringing of His Children which God gave us. If we do nothing else in life these two items MUST ALWAYS BE DONE before we even think about anything else. After meeting these two fundamental requirements then and only then can we do any other work God has called us to do. If God has called us to do other work then we must do it but we never ever do it while neglecting the two first priorities as listed above. Tasha I complement you on not seeing your slavery to your children as onerous duty. You children are most fortunate to have you as their parent. May God continue to bless you and guide you as you serve Him in this most vital of labor. It is better to be a slave to this Godly task then to have all the freedom that sin claims (erroneously I might add) to give and that many fantasize about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Originally Posted By: miz3 Jesus Christ was not a baby born with Adam's sinful nature. That's the view of people who believe that Christ was not born with "original sin." But the Bible teaches that Christ inherited the same nature as His mother Mary was born with. Christ was "the Son of man," that is, the Son of Adam. He was a true descendent of Adam, Abraham, Jacob, and David. Jesus was born of the seed of David according to the flesh. Romens 1: 2. Babies are not condemned for being born with Adam's fallen nature. John317 you and I have been round and round on this before, and the Bible does not say any such thing about Jesus Christ. The Bible as you are well aware of says that Jesus Christ was "conceived by the Holy Spirit". It does not say that any conception by the Holy Spirit was united any human egg/sperm. The Bible does not trace Mary's genealogy. The Bible does trace two instances of Joseph's genealogy but we know that Joseph contributed no sperm to the birth of Jesus Christ. Your philosophy stems from a "human centric" view of the Bible and omits the "God centric" view of the Bible altogether. This "human centric" view you hold on this issue is to bring God down to our sinful human level and that concept is not ever found the Bible as the Holy Scriptures. Having said all that this thread is about human babies other than Christ and whether such human babies are born "good or bad". Let us not get sidetracked by your human centric proclivities. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I believe self-centeredness or ego-centrism is being confused with selfishness and dependence and immaturity is being misunderstood as evil. One's sense of self in relationship to others comes with maturity. One cannot be selfish without a sense of otherness. The paradox of maturity is a growth toward independence while developing a greater awareness of and regard for others. Sin stunts growth. This is a good point Tom. We must not confuse immaturity and dependence with being evil. These two items are not sin. I do see self-centeredness, ego-centrism, and selfishness as being evil. However, it is clear that the baby comes with both sets of packages. These packages sometimes, if not often, get mixed in the babies personhood and the outcomes of the baby contain both packages. The trick then is discern which is which and maybe in some/many cases the two packages are sooooo intertwined that discernment by the human parent is impossible. God can and does discern and is never fooled and/or confused by the two packages. This why it is soooooo vital that the parent have a deep and comprehensive attachment to God/Jesus Christ so that they may receive the wisdom and every other Gift of God necessary to be His Servant in raising His children. Thank you Tom for inserting this most vital and important concept into this discussion. I appreciate your raising this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 can you please leave off the "nature" of Christ in this. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 can you please leave off the "nature" of Christ in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Yes, we are as adults to TRUST GOD, just as we quoted in Matthew chapter six awhile ago, like the child, baby trusts their parents to take care of everything for them. Unfortunately as we grow up from babyhood we tend to grow "independent" in the wrong way of independence (as opposed to the righteous way of independence) and forget to depend on our Heavenly Father. This always gets us into trouble. We need to become "dependent" as the child/baby on God in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Great Bible text Stan. You and Tom are hitting them out of the park (baseball terminology). That means more than perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q.E.D. Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 There sure are a lot of baby experts here. "Are babies born sinners?" is a debate that has been raging for centuries. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 There sure are a lot of baby experts here. "Are babies born sinners?" is a debate that has been raging for centuries. As a former baby I consider myself an expert on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q.E.D. Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Originally Posted By: Q.E.D. There sure are a lot of baby experts here. "Are babies born sinners?" is a debate that has been raging for centuries. As a former baby I consider myself an expert on them. lol I am so old I can't quite remember being a baby. Satanic Verses-Salman Rushdie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts