babies... born good or not

[miz3]

There sure are a lot of baby experts here.

"Are babies born sinners?" is a debate that has been raging for centuries.

It sure is nice to know you have One (an expert that is) should you ever need one.

No I don't mean me and/or the other humans here on this thread.

I meant God/Jesus Christ because that is where expertise on babies and being a Godly Parent comes from. Without God/Jesus Christ we wouldn't know the front from the back and that can be quite embarrassing.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I believe self-centeredness or ego-centrism is being confused with selfishness and dependence and immaturity is being misunderstood as evil.

One's sense of self in relationship to others comes with maturity. One cannot be selfish without a sense of otherness. The paradox of maturity is a growth toward independence while developing a greater awareness of and regard for others.

Sin stunts growth.

This is a good point Tom. We must not confuse immaturity and dependence with being evil. These two items are not sin.

I do see self-centeredness, ego-centrism, and selfishness as being evil.

* * *

Perhaps I could have been a bit clearer. I see selfishness as sin. But I did not mean self-centeredness or egocentrism as being synonymous with selfishness.

From a developmental perspective the definition of egocentrism and even self-centeredness is more neutral, as in "the incomplete differentiation of the self and the world, including other people". That suggests merely a lack of maturity in ones sense of self in relationship to other people. It is not necessarily a disregard for others or a lack of empathy toward them, but more a matter of a lack of distinguishing (differentiation of) self from anything other than oneself.

On the other hand selfishness is not lack in other-awareness or inability to differentiate between self and others. Quite to the contrary it is with full awareness that others are excluded from consideration, priority, respect or regard, with an intent to regard self more highly and as having priority over other people. It is a lack of empathy for others.

Infants simply lack the perceptual differentiation to understand others and their environment as being separate or distinct from themselves.

[miz3]

Thanks for clarifying Tom.

[doug yowell]

lol

I am so old I can't quite remember being a baby.

Is Q.E.D. a codeword for Adam?

[doug yowell]

There is a lot of food for thought on here

https://www.facebook.com/RadioFreeBabylon

"The workers that you gave to be with me, they gave me of their ungratefulness and I did eat."

[doug yowell]

have never met a selfish baby, we teach them that by example.

So if parents just leave them alone they will usually turn out to be caring,sharing people? Many parents have to work hard in order to get their kids to LEARN to share and the overwhelming % of parents I know are parents who would give up almost everything for their babies. Parenting itself is generally an unselfish example.

[doug yowell]

I have seen babies learn hate, bad food choices, treatment of animals, treatment of others... from those who were supposed to "train up a child... etc "

Haven't you also seen children who have been taught the opposite of the above and still not get it? Isn't that the whole point of God's command that disobedient children be stoned in the OT? So it can go both ways,right?

[ClubV12]

I recall a Sister White comment about babies being born with inherited tendencies toward evil that are so deeply engrained it is all but impossible for them to overcome.

We do get a glimpse of examples of this from time to time in a news story typically. Where the actions of even a very young child are so horrendous it is difficult to imagine. I recall other stories where children were taken from the home at an early age (perhaps a drug addicted mother or other reasons) and all though even adopted and raised by a caring loving family the child was so dangerous the State had to intervene.

Reality is that some children, some babies if you would, are just SO messed up there is little if anything, a loving family or society can do to rehabilitate them.

Which is consistent with Sister Whites observation on the inherited tendencies toward evil. 6,000 years (give or take how ever many years you want) of "breeding" has resulted in some pretty seriously messed up babies, children, adults. And not all that has to do with environment, they were literally born that way! Not to mention the cultivated ones...

When folks say they were "born that way" they could be right! But that doesn't excuse them, or necessarily fit them for heaven, in my opinion. The sins of the Fathers, unto the third and fourth generation.

[doug yowell]

I recall a Sister White comment about babies being born with inherited tendencies toward evil that are so deeply engrained it is all but impossible for them to overcome.

We do get a glimpse of examples of this from time to time in a news story typically. Where the actions of even a very young child are so horrendous it is difficult to imagine. I recall other stories where children were taken from the home at an early age (perhaps a drug addicted mother or other reasons) and all though even adopted and raised by a caring loving family the child was so dangerous the State had to intervene.

Reality is that some children, some babies if you would, are just SO messed up there is little if anything, a loving family or society can do to rehabilitate them.

This is exactly true. This very situation happened to my best friend only he had to pay for the state to take care of his 16 year old child. His brother, a renowned behavioral psychologist told him not to waste his time and money of any attempt to rehab because he had never seen it ever work (after 25 years). Only a Divine intervention can change this type of inherent problem.

[ClubV12]

Babies.... born good or not, is the original question. To me that implies that ALL babies are either born good or bad. From Sister Whites comments and Doug's followup comment I would have to conclude, "it depends".

If SOME babies are in fact "born bad" that would mean some babies are in fact "born good"! We can't apply a one size fits all.

Good and bad being relative terms of course as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

The general opinion of society and even the Church seems to be that all babies will go to heaven. I don't buy it and I've given it some serious thought, as I'm sure many have. I am convinced that some babies will simply NEVER be resurrected, it will be as if they never existed at all. There is no damnation, nor is there salvation in some cases.

Sister White CLEARLY and WITHOUT question lays this out in terms of certain ADULTS, some will never be resurrected. I'm taking that FACT and simply applying it to SOME, not ALL, babies who never reach the age of accountability.

[doug yowell]

Babies.... born good or not, is the original question. To me that implies that ALL babies are either born good or bad. From Sister Whites comments and Doug's followup comment I would have to conclude, "it depends".

If SOME babies are in fact "born bad" that would mean some babies are in fact "born good"! We can't apply a one size fits all.

Good and bad being relative terms of course as ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

I agree with this based on the "relative" aspect. I believe that Mrs. White was accurately reflecting the Bible's conclusion that we all are born {"bad"}"under sin","conceived in iniquity", gone astray from the womb","there is none that does good,no,not one", ect... I see every child needing to be "trained up" which means that they are born incapable of themselves of being good. Some are just a lot worse than others which may be a candidate for another thread.

To add to the story, I had another friend who adopted a little girl who, despite all the love and guidance they gave her, seemed incapable of living a trouble free life. They were desperately questioning how something like this could happen given the amount of Godly and patient love they had poured out on their daughter when someone gave them the book "Children Without Conscience" (or something like that). The conclusion of it's secular author was similar to EGW's conclusion.After reading the book they quit blaming themselves for that which they could not control.

[Kevin H]

As I understand it from the Bible, Mrs. White, as well as things I've studied that has influenced my thought such as Eli Siegel's Aesthetic Realism, William Glasser's Choice Theory/Reality Therapy, and Jack Canfield's "The Success Principles" and Cognative Psychology, and the 3 chapters from "Sanctuary and the Atonement" The Mighty Opposits: The Atonement in the writings of Ellen G. White parts 1 and 2, and "We Must All Appear: The Investigative Judgment in the writings of Ellen G. White" and my understanding of what the Bible teaches about salvation and the nature of hell fire, babies are born with 2 conflecting attitudes.

First we have the sinful nature. NOT original sin, but that disposition that ClubV mentioned above, but that he seems to only apply to some children not to all children. I understand all children as being born with inherited tendencies toward evil that are so deeply engrained it is all but impossible for them to overcome. As Mrs. White says in the communion chapter of the desire of ages: There is in man a disposition to esteam himself above his breathern, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit. Or as the poet Eli Siegel said "There is in every person a disposition to think he is for himself by making less of the outside world. This is our sinful nature. This is the reason why we are lost. If this was all there was to the story it would be sad indeed.

However this is not the only thing we are born with: In Genesis 3:15 God told us that he is giving us something that would cause enmity beween us and sin. That our deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus. To love the world as Jesus has loved it. That the desire to be like and with Jesus is more desirable than gold, sweeter than honey and the honeycomb.

We are born with the fight between our deepest desire and our disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. It is impossible for us to over come these. What we can do is make choices with effect which one has more control over our life. Whether to yield to the Holy Spirit or for selfishness. But even these choices the good choices are still tanted with our sinful nature, and our worst choices are still tanted with our desire to be like and with Jesus. Thus even our best is like filthy rags.

At the second coming, for those who are trusting in Jesus, our sinful nature will be removed. For the lost, the reason why hell is hell is because of these two attitudes. They want to come to Jesus, but have developed characters that even though the sinful nature is not the most powerful aspecte inside of us, they have placed their sinful nature in power where it is a dictator over the life, thus they are drawn to Jesus but refuse to yield to their deepest desire.

Besides our sinful nature and our deepest desire, there is another aspect that is good to be aware of. Dr. Glasser sees people as having 5 basic needs: Survival, Love and Belonging, Power, Freedom, Fun. While we all have these 5 needs, it appears to Dr. Glasser that we are born with diffrent amounts of drives towards each need. We either have an average amount, a little less than average, a little more than average, or a lot less than average or a lot more than average drive towards each need. And we form what he calls our quality world in how we have come to like having the needs met. These affect how we meet things in our environment and how we make our choices in life.

I hope you find this useful.

[miz3]

Maybe the Bible will help?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Psalm 51;5.

[Woody]

Maybe the Bible will help?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Psalm 51;5.

Good One Miz3

Sounds like we need a Saviour to take our place.

[Kevin H]

Yes, the Bible does help, but not when you turn to texts that show only about half of the truth and use it at the expence of the rest of the truth.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Maybe the Bible will help?

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Psalm 51;5.

Good One Miz3

Sounds like we need a Saviour to take our place.

We do have a Savior to take our place. Praise God.

[miz3]

Yes, the Bible does help, but not when you turn to texts that show only about half of the truth and use it at the expence of the rest of the truth.

?????????????????????????

Did we forget to consult Ellen White first?

I saw no need to consult Ellen White when the Bible was very plain and uncomplicated about what actually happens at conception.

Unlike many SDA Church .org I do not worship Ellen White nor do I view her writings as being above the clear unambiguous statements of the Bible.

I also view the Bible as being above human wisdom whether it is found in psychology, psychiatry, medicine, history, philosophy, biology, chemistry, genetics, nutrition, archeology, linguistics, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I believe my text of Psalm chapter fifty-one is the WHOLE TRUTH.

[Woody]

Quote:

We do have a Savior to take our place. Praise God.

And that indeed is why we can say we are among the Redeemed - the saved of God.

[miz3]

Quote:

We do have a Savior to take our place. Praise God.

And that indeed is why we can say we are among the Redeemed - the saved of God.

[ClubV12]

Kevin I understand your saying all children are born with inherited tendencies toward evil but Sister Whites comments lead me to believe she is addressing a certain class or group of people. A group that, simply put, is not normal by any standards we could apply. Perhaps a born psychopath, literally born that way.

I recall a recent story about a serial killer on death row (Australia I think) and his SON committed murder while his Dad was in prison. His reasoning was it runs in the family. When his Dad found out he said he was not surprised. Inherited, cultivated or both tendency toward evil? Sins of the father unto the third and fourth generation "curse"? Curse, while accurate, may miss the point, in that it's not some weird science thing. It's a real physical passing of the genes to your off spring thing AND enhanced by environment. If I was a shrink I'd be taking a hard look at the family tree in the serial killer case. The son may be right, it really might physcially "run in the family"!

Of course the common thing we hear today is that those in the LGBT community say they have no choice, they were "born that way". Perhaps so. Does that excuse a serial killer? Does it excuse an alcoholic (as we know some have a strong tendency toward alcohol abuse)? Does it excuse the baby born a drug addict who grows up to be a drug addict? I don't know, the Lord does.

I DO know, being under the influence of some mind numbing substance does not excuse your crime in court. BUT, that may be changing! There are studies now underway that are attempting to show a criminal was literally "born that way", a medically recognized condition of a tendency toward "evil" if you would. Some legal experts would like to use such data to mitigate the sentence, but not necessarily plead not guilty. All though, I can see that as the next step....

The devil made me do it may not be that far out of the realm of possibility should this proceed.

[Kevin H]

Yes indeed ClubV12, that is part of what I was trying to say. The basic needs that Dr. Glasser talks about. I forgot the exact numbers he gave, but he points out that the sociopath tends to be very low in their drive towards love and beloning and high in power and thus end up going to have power over people, which goes along with what you are saying, and with the Biblical issue of the warfare that wipes out the women and children.

So I see the issue as a lot more complicated than is the child good or bad. The child has the 3 aspects of the sinful nature, the desire to be like and with Jesus, and what is the level of their drive towards the 5 basic needs.

However, we do have control over the thoughts we think, the images we visualize and our actions/behaviors. So while it may be more difficult for people, and I wonder if it would be wise to have "cities of Refuge" for some problems such as child molesters where they live away from children, or other things to help people with these problems to live the best they can yet be away from their victims.

Granted with it comes to the issue of homosexuality, I am open to the possibility that we might be taking the texts out of context and applying it to what the Bible is not applying it to, but let's not go down that thread here, this is too interesting a topic to get hijacked on to that issue.

[phkrause]

Great points Club

[miz3]

As Woody points out we have a Savior that can remove not only the guilt of our "conceptual sin", our environmental sin, our anything sin, but but we have a Savior that can rid us of "all our evil regardless of source" and then make us perfect so that we actually fulfill Mathew chapter five verse forty-eight.

Here is that text in case you are not aware of it.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Matthew 5:48.

Thus, none of us have any excuse for our sin ever. It does not matter how you were born and/or the circumstances of your environment from birth to death, there is no excuse whatsoever for any sin. God/Jesus Christ have made provision for you to be Victorious over all sin. NO EXCUSES.

The Bible says so, that is why I believe what I just wrote. I have also experienced victory over many sins as well and God continues to work on me to give me victory over all sin.

There can be no higher Authority than the Bible (the Word of God) and our experience that mirrors the Word of God in the Bible.

[ClubV12]

Well, this is a very tough thread.

"...none of us have any excuse for our sin ever." True, and certainly true that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Then again, Sister White speaking of some slaves (in the Civil War section of the Testimonies) knew nothing but the abuse of their Masters. They were little different than the beasts of the field, having no freedom, even of thought, no chance in their entire life to make a choice other than what was forced upon them. To these men and women is it then "sin"?

She says it would not be safe to take them to heaven because they have never been tested. Are babies "tested"? Apparently not SLAVE babies at least. It would not be right to punish them for what they had no free choice in. They will not be resurrected, ever. It will be as though they had never lived, this life is all they knew. She goes on to talk about the fate of the Master and it's very unpleasant for him/her.

This then begs the question: What of these very young children who may well experience a similiar environment? Who may very well have been born with the most horrifying inherited tendencies toward evil? What DOES it take to reach the "age of accountablity" for an adult with the mental ability of a young baby?

When the angel showed Ellen White they were keeping the Sabbath incorrectly and had been for five years or so (6pm to 6pm) she trembled, thinking they had not just been wrong, but sinful! The angel assured her there is no condemnation for those who have not been given the light, the choice! What then IS sin?

Ellen Whites baby died at a very young age, and she rejoiced in the knowledge that she would see her baby again. Good news, but it does present a conundrum on babies....

I trust God that He knows how to handle these things, I sure don't!

[miz3]

The Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish and that He is willing to be as patient as it takes to save them.

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

2Peter 3:9.

"Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Matthew 19:26.

"For nothing is impossible with God."

Luke 1:37.

"Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God."

Luke 18:27.

I guess Ellen White did not get this memo. She is in direct conflict with the clear words of the Bible. Ellen White believes it is "impossible" for God to save a class of human beings she described in her quote but the Bible is clear that no such class of human beings exists.

God can and does save all classes of human beings regardless of the deficiencies they may have.

For you SDA Church .org faithful who keep asking where does Ellen White disagree with the Bible you have yet another example here.

She says God can't save some but the Bible says different.