babies... born good or not

[miz3]

Prophet's words are not inspired, but the people in the office of prophet are inspired. Mrs. White describes what she did as being shown photographs and describing what she saw. She says that there is a frame work that these have fit into, and that she is sharing principles. Too often we as Adventists and critics of Adventism do not see the forest for the trees. Mrs. White has her framework and her application of the framework. The applications she would modify over time as she understood the frame work better. All the critics are focused on the application where Mrs. White tells us that there could be problems and refers us to the framework.

Once again I was not trying to discuss your specific post but state a general principle that I later thought would be better to discuss in a different context however when I deleted the message it ended up not deleteing.

I don't blame you for "dancin'". It is a natural human reaction when one is caught in a trap.

You correctly wrote that of course there are contradictions between Ellen White and the Bible. That is the only truthful thing you have written.

Everything else is just "dancin'".

I was correct you are very confused and the more you struggle the deeper you pit becomes.

So its the "frame work" that counts not the actual words? Is this also the way the Bible works?

So when Jesus Christ said that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life those actual words mean nothing because we need to figure out "what the frame work" Christ was operating under?

Are you sure you want to go down this path in regard to "frame work". I counsel you not to because you will demonstrate further how confused your posts demonstrate you are.

[Kevin H]

You are also reading more into my post than I actually said or had in mind. I did not want to pull it to cover any mistake, only that I was stating a general comment and felt that it would get the thread off track and needed to find a better place to discuss the topic. If you can look up my history you can see that I've said this many times in the past. I was simply making a comment I've made several times before, which I felt was hijacking this discussion and would take a lot of time to talk about so I though I'd wait to discuss in a different context. However you are twisting and turning it and milking it for all you think it's worth.

[miz3]

You are also reading more into my post than I actually said or had in mind. I did not want to pull it to cover any mistake, only that I was stating a general comment and felt that it would get the thread off track and needed to find a better place to discuss the topic. If you can look up my history you can see that I've said this many times in the past. I was simply making a comment I've made several times before, which I felt was hijacking this discussion and would take a lot of time to talk about so I though I'd wait to discuss in a different context. However you are twisting and turning it and milking it for all you think it's worth.

I think it fits perfectly into this thread in regard to what Ellen White said about some babies and those "brutes".

It is Ok for Ellen White to have an opinion, that does not make her a bad person and/or even less of a leader to the SDA Church .org.

It just means that the SDA Church .org made a huge mistake in trying to make into a prophet/more than a prophet because it is clear that she was not as "inspired" as the SDA Church .org has tried to make her be.

[ClubV12]

Worth repeating, miz3,

"Those who a little before were so reckless, so boastful and defiant, so exultant in their cruelty to God’s commandment-keeping people, are now overwhelmed with consternation, and shuddering in fear. Their wails are heard above the sound of the elements. Demons acknowledge the divinity of Christ, and tremble before his power, while men are supplicating for mercy, and groveling in abject terror."

The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 4 pg 455

[miz3]

What? No Bible and Bible only proof?

[Kevin H]

What baby statement do you have in mind? I'm only familiar with the one about how some babies did not have their mothers answer their crys so the angels brought them to the tree of life.

As for the other statement, she her message and principle is opposing slavery, the responsibility of the slave owners in their treatment of humans and that they will be responsible for what happens to their slaves, and if they have so abused other humans that they know nothing else than hate and would protect them from the suffering of seeing Jesus in all his beauty if they had developed a character where they cannot feel at home in heaven.

ClubV12 was talking about an issue that many have recongnized in how there are some children who no matter how good an environment they live in still have some very bad problems, and frequently they come from a heritage of families that have had bad problems. Now God knows their capasity and will take care of them for what they know. Once again look at my understanding of hell fire. If they can find it heaven to be with Jesus they will be there.

[ClubV12]

Not for you Miz3, there is no more "proof" for you, no counsel, you are free to continue your verbal abuse against the Seventh-day Adventist Church and it's membership. I will offer nothing as "proof" in response to your inquiries. You have a made a choice to fight against the Spirit of Prophecy, I will not interfere. Your local Church might choose to at some point though. Openly fighting against the Spirit of Prophecy is a violation of the Church Manual and subjects a member to Church discipline.

...rail on miz3, rail on...

[miz3]

What baby statement do you have in mind? I'm only familiar with the one about how some babies did not have their mothers answer their crys so the angels brought them to the tree of life.

As for the other statement, she her message and principle is opposing slavery, the responsibility of the slave owners in their treatment of humans and that they will be responsible for what happens to their slaves, and if they have so abused other humans that they know nothing else than hate and would protect them from the suffering of seeing Jesus in all his beauty if they had developed a character where they cannot feel at home in heaven.

ClubV12 was talking about an issue that many have recongnized in how there are some children who no matter how good an environment they live in still have some very bad problems, and frequently they come from a heritage of families that have had bad problems. Now God knows their capasity and will take care of them for what they know. Once again look at my understanding of hell fire. If they can find it heaven to be with Jesus they will be there.

Since there is no proof for your position in the Bible I can understand why you and others do not want to answer any more.

[M. T. Cross]

IMO we are born perfect and I believe we come into this world with a great deal of knowledge of all that is spiritually. It gets beaten out of us by the world, by parents and folks with agenda's. Tis truly a sad thing.

[BobRyan]

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

OK Mr. pkrause you have your statement thanks to ClubV12.

[miz3]

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

OK Mr. pkrause you have your statement thanks to ClubV12.

[miz3]

And as for infants.

Quote:

As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mothers’ arms. They meet again nevermore to part.

But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. {2SM 260.1}

Originally Posted By: miz3

So God can save babies, even babies, who die in the womb.

Well - - according to 2SM 260 He does.

So in that case - we have facts. No need to make stuff up.

in Christ,

Bob

In this case I agree that Ellen White agrees with the Bible.

Quoting Ellen White as a FACT is not a FACT. Ellen White is only a FACT when she agrees with the Bible.

Like you said, no need to make stuff up like some lame explanation about what Ellen White meant concerning the "brutes" that are not fit for Heaven.

Take your own advice my friend.

[miz3]

It appears that we have some trying to engage in "damage control" since their position has now been shredded.

[ClubV12]

miz3, I get it, you don't believe in Ellen White, fine. Are you done? Or is it your intent to continue to badger, annoy, complain and bully the participants of this discussion until the thread is closed?

Contacting the moderator, this guy (he/she/it) is really abusive and out of control. WHY can't something be done? There have been many requests and yet the abuse continues. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have an intelligent conversation with the continual interuptions and OFF TOPIC comments.

I'd like to pursue this discussion but feel it is worthless to continue while the posters are under continual attack.

[miz3]

I am not attacking posters.

I am attacking what some believe because what they believe is not Biblical.

I am also upholding the position on this topic that I believe is true and I believe is Biblical.

[ClubV12]

Miz3, your a troll looking for trouble in this thread and EVERY thread your on. If you don't believe the author under discussion, Ellen White, say so and move on. If you don't like the Seventh-day Adventist Church, say so and move on.

The Church and it's beliefs are irrelevant to the discussion. Ellen White made a comment about slaves that could pertain to babies, the topic of this thread. You don't like the author of those statements, fine, now go away. You've made your case.

I've contacted Stan to see what can be done to stop the madness, stop the abuse, stop the bully.

[Kevin H]

There was a story about a lamb drinking at a stream, up the stream was a wolf saying he was going to kill and eat the lamb because he was muddying up his water. The lamb pointed out that he was down stream and thus could not muddy up the water up stream, so then the wolf said "well you were drinking up stream from me last summer and was muddying up my stream. The lamb replied "it could not have been me since I was just born this spring" to which the wolf replied "Then it must have been one of your parents and you are the child" nothing that the lamb said could not be twisted. Miz3, you are twisting. You are making claims about Mrs. White that I have not seen,(things that others here have been wondering about, and you seem to have applied their wondering as a statement of fact from Mrs. White but I have not see your evidence for this claim) then you are using the reasoning of being a fundamentalist against those things that Mrs. White suposably said but have not been shown, and I reply that I am not a fundamentalist so a fundamentalist reasoning does not effect me. Then you have been twisting that statement around and out of context.

[BobRyan]

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

OK Mr. pkrause you have your statement thanks to ClubV12.

[ClubV12]

Those slaves who are not resurrected I guess we could technically refer to as "wicked", but I think it misses the mark.

We know that we are not held accountable for that which we did not know. Sister White likens the knowledge of the "lost" slave to that of equal or even lesser intelligence of a beast of the field. In which case, righteouss or wicked would not apply, no judgment can be rendered in either case.

This reminds me of a court of law dealing with a dangerous person who really is "insane". Not acting out of malice, they literally just don't know any better, not a technical "insanity defense" but a real insanity defense. Now what can the court do? It cannot release the person back into society because he/she is in fact dangerous. It would not be ethical to give them a life sentence in prison where they would surely end up in even more trouble or have to serve the rest of their lives in solitary confinement. Sadly, this IS what happens to people like this MOST of the time because the insanity defense is not properly carried out. The proper and ethical response of the court is to "sentence" the insane to some kind of hospital environment, slightly better than prison, but societys options are limited by funding, room, personel.

By Sister Whites comments on this subject we get a glimpse of how the Lord will deal with some in this situation. NOT just some slaves from the Civil War, but folks like this all through the ages. Where circumstances in life prevented them from ever having had the ability to CHOOSE. Rendering them at their death a risk to the eternal happiness of all heavenly beings.

This concept MUST include SOME infants! God knows the person in the womb, what might be, what course their life will take. I submit that not ALL babies are safe to save, I leave that decision to the only One who CAN make it!

To me it is also testimony that discounts the idea that somehow some "miracle" will be wrought on our behalf that changes our THINKING into someone who now loves all things heavenly. We are NOT to be made robots! There is a preparation, a change that we must willingly acknowledge and accept, we are a part of the process, not some "animal" miraculously changed "just because".

Consider the thief on the cross. WAS that a "last minute" conversion? A spur of the moment decision? I don't think so. That thief was likely present during the persecution of Jesus, he had heard the stories, witnessed the events, heard Jesus speak. He had time to think the matter through, the Holy Spirit was working on his heart well before he was hanging on the cross. The cross is where he finally put it all together and took his stand for Christ, I don't believe it was a sudden and from out of nowhere as it appears to be from the biblical record alone. That man made an intelligent decision based on the light and truth that he knew of.

[miz3]

I see people posting "speculation" that is not backed by the Biblical Record. In addition I see people using Ellen White over the Bible Record, even when Ellen White clearly disagrees with what the Bible actually states.

When such things are not only pointed but proved by me in my postings, I see people who have no Biblical answer so they cry foul and hurl every invective they can at me and after they have personally attacked me they then claim that they are the ones being attacked.

Is this what the SDA Church .org is actually about? Are these the ones who claim they are the pure and holy remnant? Are these the ones who claim God is on their side?

[miz3]

Here is my proof again which shows that I made no personal attacks.

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

OK Mr. pkrause you have your statement thanks to ClubV12.

This statement is in direct contradiction to the Words of the Bible and the Bible only.

Yes John chapter one which says that Jesus Christ is the "light that lights" every human and by itself makes Ellen White's words above wrong and in contradiction.

The Bible in addition says that "nothing is impossible" with God. And those texts in context were talking about Salvation and who could and could not be saved.

So once again the Bible and Ellen White are in contradiction to each other.

Even the degradation of slavery cannot keep God from saving such poor sinners and some will be in the Kingdom of Heaven according to the Bible Principles that God can and does do the impossible.

So God can save babies, even babies, who die in the womb. Nothing is impossible with God.

[miz3]

More of my proof.

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

It is because of our limited human intelligence that we stumble over apparent contradictions in the bible, or the Spirit of Prophecy.

James and Paul are also apparent contradictions on faith and works, and yet they are in perfect harmony. The problem is not the bible, or the SOP, it is our inability to discern truth that is to complex for some to grasp.

Miz3 says,

"...some (slaves) will be in the Kingdom of Heaven..."

Well, some won't. Some people will be in the Kingdom, some won't. This is not some profound revelation of truth.

If all things are possible with God, how come He can't save those that crucified Christ? Why can't He answer Jesus' request that they be forgiven?

"apparent contradictions in the bible"??? When these contradictions have scattered instead of provided the unity Jesus prayed for in John 17, then these contradictions are NOT just apparent--they are real and only a blind man couldn't see the difference these contradictions have caused by all of the many thousands of denominations we have today.

Tell you what, try to find ONE contradiction from the words of Jesus? His words cause people to unit as ONE with God. Paul's words cause people to become sacattered and argue with one another.

And just Who was IT who truely killed Jesus? Since Jesus was God, only a God could kill Him, and that would agree with Who it was that was going to kill Adam for not obeying Him. Yes, God the Father killed His Son. Don't people understand why (the real reason) God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?

1. Dr. Rich it is a lame excuse to say that it is our human shortfall that cannot explain the clear contradictions between Ellen White and the Bible. That is like saying the "flat earth" believers and the "round earth" are not really in contradiction it is just that we are not intelligent enough to understand that they both are exactly correct.

The FACT is that Ellen White and the Bible do not agree. Let me be clear that some of these same "brutish slaves" referred to by Ellen White as not ever going to heaven will in FACT be in heaven because of God's saving grace.

We must FACE THE FACT that Ellen White was wrong and the Bible Truth is exactly what made her wrong.

2. As to who killed Jesus Christ on the Cross, I agree with you that it was God who sent Him to Hell and Jesus Christ died because of the Wrath of God. This is why Jesus Christ cried out "why have you forsaken me".

3. As to the request of Jesus Christ for God to forgive those humans who longed to see Jesus dead, that request was granted in spite of some who claim it was not granted.

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

Acts 15:5.

I know Dr. Rich you don't believe in the Book of Acts, however, I cite it for those who believe the Book of Acts is inspired. As such it clearly shows that Pharisees did become "believers" in Jesus Christ and thus were forgiven by the Almighty Father God.

In addition I add this text concerning those who crucified Jesus Christ:

"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.

Because he is at my right hand,

I will not be shaken.

26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;

my body also will live in hope,

27 because you will not abandon me to the grave,

nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

28 You have made known to me the paths of life;

you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]

29 “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

35 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet.”’[g]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."

Acts 2:22-41.

Notice that those who crucified Jesus Christ were baptized and became believers. So God did indeed forgive those around the Cross just as Jesus Christ requested God to do.

I am afraid Dr. Rich that some are so fluent in Ellen White they cease to be even mildly fluent in the Bible.

[miz3]

Yet more proof.

For those who think that God did not and/or could not forgive those humans involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ there is also this Bible text.

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:31-32.

According to this Principle the Father would forgive all sins including the sin of being involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

In addition I challenge those who believe that God the Father could NOT FORGIVE those humans who were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ to cite the Bible and the Bible only as proof that their assertion is true.

Please give Book, Chapter and verse(s).

or

Does their doctrine on this come from Ellen White only.

I have shown positive proof of my position now show yours if you can.

[miz3]

And more.

While yes there are contradictions, too often people see contraditions where they do not really exist. Truth tends to be a oneness of opposits and we tend to grab on to one part of a set of opposits and refuse the rest. Then there are contradictions because prophets do grow. Too often with Mrs. White we turn to her earlier writings and don't see how her views developed through the years.

Again, that means when she uttered those words about "brute beasts" she was NOT speaking as one inspired but was just giving her opinion.

Thus, my point has been made that Ellen White was citing her own opinions in her writings and very very rarely was speaking what she received from God.

Since her opinions are now mixed we cannot say that every word she spoke in those volumes and volumes of books she got direct from God.

It looks like God did correct her opinions much later in her life. That means not every word she wrote came direct from God and as such is just her opinion.

I have been trying to tell you all this from the beginning. Maybe now that this CONTRADICTION has been exposed you will believe me more readily.

Ellen White is not the "prophet" the SDA Church .org has claimed she is.

[miz3]

For those who think that God did not and/or could not forgive those humans involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ there is also this Bible text.

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:31-32.

According to this Principle the Father would forgive all sins including the sin of being involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

In addition I challenge those who believe that God the Father could NOT FORGIVE those humans who were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ to cite the Bible and the Bible only as proof that their assertion is true.

Please give Book, Chapter and verse(s).

or

Does their doctrine on this come from Ellen White only.

I have shown positive proof of my position now show yours if you can.