babies... born good or not

[phkrause]

She says God can't save some but the Bible says different.

Can we see that quote?

[Stan]

This is a classic worth re-reading

Children Learn What They Live

by Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.

If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.

If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.

If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.

If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.

If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.

If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.

If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.

If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.

If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.

If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.

If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.

If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.

If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.

If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.

If children live with fairness, they learn justice.

If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.

If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.

If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

[doug yowell]

The list only addresses what children learn after birth. Where did Cain learn hatred? Where did Manasseh learn to hate good, kill true old prophets, and love evil? Where did my friend's daughter learn to never say I love you? Where did the child of a couple who taught their children "Better to die than to tell a lie" learn to lie about almost everything? The list goes on. But the ultimate question is why did the Perfect Parent end up with such horrible children?

[ClubV12]

Hmmmm, interesting point about Cain, Doug.

Surely HE was not among those whom Ellen White refers to as being born with inherited tendencies toward evil that were "all but impossible to overcome". Perhaps it would be accurate to say such tendencies STARTED with Cain though!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: miz3

She says God can't save some but the Bible says different.

Can we see that quote?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

She says God can't save some but the Bible says different.

Can we see that quote?

Ask ClubV12 he is the one that made that statement from Ellen White that says God cannot save some.

[ClubV12]

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

Bob I'm NOT convinced that particular Ellen White quote applies to ALL babies across the board. She certainly looked forward to seeing HER baby on the resurrection and she talks about other mothers, by name in fact, who can look forward to the same. But I don't see evidence that it applies to all.

CAN God save ALL? No, He can't. The #1 reason is rather obvious, MOST, NOT ALL, will have been tested, they made a choice, however small a choice it may have been. Nature speaks of God, those without a bible of no specific knowledge of God can still make a choice, be tested, live up to the light that nature alone can provide.

I've already posted this once, I'll repeat it again. Ellen White had much to say about the Civil War, most of which can be found in Testimonies Volume 1. One subject was the treatment of slaves in America. SOME, not all, were treated so harshly from birth that they never had free will. There were as the beasts that the master owned. They knew only what they were told to do, or die. Man, woman and child. BECAUSE they never had free will, never could make a choice, they were not "tested". Heaven would not be safe if they were allowed in that place. What then should be done? They CANNOT BE SAVED. They will not be resurrected, ever. This life is all that they will have known. Should they be punished as the wicked? NO! Should they saved as the Saints? Heaven would not be safe. This would apply, of course, to many different people through out the history of the earth, not just Civil War slaves.

Now this presents a conundrum as it concerns infants. Were THEY tested? Did THEY have free will? This is beyond human reasoning, we have to trust God to make the right decisions. Then I would consider her comments concerning SOME are born with inherited tendencies toward evil that are "all BUT impossible to overcome". Can they be overcome? It would seem possible, but NOT likely in some cases. I certainly would not begin to make that judgment. Do we then excuse the mass murder because he/she was BORN that way? Some medical ethicists think we should. Some people say the LGBT group is also excused, because they were born that way. Where does THAT line of reasoning stop? Drug addicts? Really studid people? Where? But there it is, we KNOW it applies to some people, through out the history of the world because the prophet gives us that insight to the mystery of salvation. Who is SAFE to save? Not all are.

Jesus asked the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him because they did not KNOW what they were doing. Ellen White says this was impossible, that the Father could NOT forgive them in spite of the pleading, the prayer, of Jesus.

What does all this mean? Let each man be decided in his own heart.

Now look, if you don't accept Ellen White as a prophet, then disregard the counsel, whatever. This post doesn't apply to YOU. If you DO accept Ellen White, theres something here to chew on. No need to go all "anti-Ellen White" because you don't like the counsel. I get it, your not a believer, fine, you made your CHOICE, live or die with it in the end.

WILL Ellen White see HER baby in heaven? She thought so, maybe she will, I hope so. But I see no direct vision, dream or divine revelation in regards to the outcome one way or the other. I see a mothers hope, perhaps that is all God has left for mothers, it is His will that hope remains. The Father was not able to save those whom Jesus prayed for directly, but Jesus still prayed for them, He still had hope for them.

You see, Jesus pleads His blood on our behalf, but the Father makes the final decision in His all knowing heavenly way, it is absolutely based on LOVE.

[dialoguewithus]

John 1:9 tells us plainly that Jesus is the light Who enlightens every human being. The saving grace of God makes its advent to every soul for whom Christ died. Titus 2:11.

We can determine the meaning of the word draw in John 12:32 by examining its usage in the Bible. This word, or a closely related Greek word, appears in seven other places:

John 6:44 (CLV)

No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day.

John 18:10 (CLV)

Simon Peter, then, having a sword, draws it, and hits the chief priest's slave and strikes off his right ear. Now the name of the slave was Malchus.

John 21:6 (CLV)

Now He said to them, “Cast the net on the right parts of the ship and you will be finding.” They cast, then, and they no longer were strong enough to draw it, for the multitude of fishes.

John 21:11 (CLV)

Simon Peter, then, went up and draws the net to the land, distended with a hundred and fifty-three large fishes. And, being so many, the net is not rent.

Acts 16:19 (CLV)

Now her masters, perceiving that the expectation of their income was come out, getting hold of Paul and Silas, draw them into the market to the magistrates,

Acts 21:30 (CLV)

Besides, stirred was the whole city, and there came to be a running together of the people. And getting hold of Paul, they drew him outside of the sanctuary, and immediately the doors are locked.

James 2:6 (CLV)

Yet you dishonor the poor one. Are not the rich tyrannizing over you? And they are drawing you to tribunals.

"Draw" is an action word, indicating the moving of someone or something from one state or place to another.

[miz3]

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

OK Mr. pkrause you have your statement thanks to ClubV12.

This statement is in direct contradiction to the Words of the Bible and the Bible only.

Yes John chapter one which says that Jesus Christ is the "light that lights" every human and by itself makes Ellen White's words above wrong and in contradiction.

The Bible in addition says that "nothing is impossible" with God. And those texts in context were talking about Salvation and who could and could not be saved.

So once again the Bible and Ellen White are in contradiction to each other.

Even the degradation of slavery cannot keep God from saving such poor sinners and some will be in the Kingdom of Heaven according to the Bible Principles that God can and does do the impossible.

So God can save babies, even babies, who die in the womb. Nothing is impossible with God.

[ClubV12]

It is because of our limited human intelligence that we stumble over apparent contradictions in the bible, or the Spirit of Prophecy.

James and Paul are also apparent contradictions on faith and works, and yet they are in perfect harmony. The problem is not the bible, or the SOP, it is our inability to discern truth that is to complex for some to grasp.

Miz3 says,

"...some (slaves) will be in the Kingdom of Heaven..."

Well, some won't. Some people will be in the Kingdom, some won't. This is not some profound revelation of truth.

If all things are possible with God, how come He can't save those that crucified Christ? Why can't He answer Jesus' request that they be forgiven?

[Dr. Rich]

It is because of our limited human intelligence that we stumble over apparent contradictions in the bible, or the Spirit of Prophecy.

James and Paul are also apparent contradictions on faith and works, and yet they are in perfect harmony. The problem is not the bible, or the SOP, it is our inability to discern truth that is to complex for some to grasp.

Miz3 says,

"...some (slaves) will be in the Kingdom of Heaven..."

Well, some won't. Some people will be in the Kingdom, some won't. This is not some profound revelation of truth.

If all things are possible with God, how come He can't save those that crucified Christ? Why can't He answer Jesus' request that they be forgiven?

"apparent contradictions in the bible"??? When these contradictions have scattered instead of provided the unity Jesus prayed for in John 17, then these contradictions are NOT just apparent--they are real and only a blind man couldn't see the difference these contradictions have caused by all of the many thousands of denominations we have today.

Tell you what, try to find ONE contradiction from the words of Jesus? His words cause people to unit as ONE with God. Paul's words cause people to become sacattered and argue with one another.

And just Who was IT who truely killed Jesus? Since Jesus was God, only a God could kill Him, and that would agree with Who it was that was going to kill Adam for not obeying Him. Yes, God the Father killed His Son. Don't people understand why (the real reason) God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

It is because of our limited human intelligence that we stumble over apparent contradictions in the bible, or the Spirit of Prophecy.

James and Paul are also apparent contradictions on faith and works, and yet they are in perfect harmony. The problem is not the bible, or the SOP, it is our inability to discern truth that is to complex for some to grasp.

Miz3 says,

"...some (slaves) will be in the Kingdom of Heaven..."

Well, some won't. Some people will be in the Kingdom, some won't. This is not some profound revelation of truth.

If all things are possible with God, how come He can't save those that crucified Christ? Why can't He answer Jesus' request that they be forgiven?

"apparent contradictions in the bible"??? When these contradictions have scattered instead of provided the unity Jesus prayed for in John 17, then these contradictions are NOT just apparent--they are real and only a blind man couldn't see the difference these contradictions have caused by all of the many thousands of denominations we have today.

Tell you what, try to find ONE contradiction from the words of Jesus? His words cause people to unit as ONE with God. Paul's words cause people to become sacattered and argue with one another.

And just Who was IT who truely killed Jesus? Since Jesus was God, only a God could kill Him, and that would agree with Who it was that was going to kill Adam for not obeying Him. Yes, God the Father killed His Son. Don't people understand why (the real reason) God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?

1. Dr. Rich it is a lame excuse to say that it is our human shortfall that cannot explain the clear contradictions between Ellen White and the Bible. That is like saying the "flat earth" believers and the "round earth" are not really in contradiction it is just that we are not intelligent enough to understand that they both are exactly correct.

The FACT is that Ellen White and the Bible do not agree. Let me be clear that some of these same "brutish slaves" referred to by Ellen White as not ever going to heaven will in FACT be in heaven because of God's saving grace.

We must FACE THE FACT that Ellen White was wrong and the Bible Truth is exactly what made her wrong.

2. As to who killed Jesus Christ on the Cross, I agree with you that it was God who sent Him to Hell and Jesus Christ died because of the Wrath of God. This is why Jesus Christ cried out "why have you forsaken me".

3. As to the request of Jesus Christ for God to forgive those humans who longed to see Jesus dead, that request was granted in spite of some who claim it was not granted.

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

Acts 15:5.

I know Dr. Rich you don't believe in the Book of Acts, however, I cite it for those who believe the Book of Acts is inspired. As such it clearly shows that Pharisees did become "believers" in Jesus Christ and thus were forgiven by the Almighty Father God.

In addition I add this text concerning those who crucified Jesus Christ:

"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.

Because he is at my right hand,

I will not be shaken.

26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;

my body also will live in hope,

27 because you will not abandon me to the grave,

nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

28 You have made known to me the paths of life;

you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]

29 “Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[f] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:

“Sit at my right hand

35 until I make your enemies

a footstool for your feet.”’[g]

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."

Acts 2:22-41.

Notice that those who crucified Jesus Christ were baptized and became believers. So God did indeed forgive those around the Cross just as Jesus Christ requested God to do.

I am afraid Dr. Rich that some are so fluent in Ellen White they cease to be even mildly fluent in the Bible.

[miz3]

For those who think that God did not and/or could not forgive those humans involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ there is also this Bible text.

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:31-32.

According to this Principle the Father would forgive all sins including the sin of being involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

In addition I challenge those who believe that God the Father could NOT FORGIVE those humans who were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ to cite the Bible and the Bible only as proof that their assertion is true.

Please give Book, Chapter and verse(s).

or

Does their doctrine on this come from Ellen White only.

I have shown positive proof of my position now show yours if you can.

[miz3]

While yes there are contradictions, too often people see contraditions where they do not really exist. Truth tends to be a oneness of opposits and we tend to grab on to one part of a set of opposits and refuse the rest. Then there are contradictions because prophets do grow. Too often with Mrs. White we turn to her earlier writings and don't see how her views developed through the years.

Again, that means when she uttered those words about "brute beasts" she was NOT speaking as one inspired but was just giving her opinion.

Thus, my point has been made that Ellen White was citing her own opinions in her writings and very very rarely was speaking what she received from God.

Since her opinions are now mixed we cannot say that every word she spoke in those volumes and volumes of books she got direct from God.

It looks like God did correct her opinions much later in her life. That means not every word she wrote came direct from God and as such is just her opinion.

I have been trying to tell you all this from the beginning. Maybe now that this CONTRADICTION has been exposed you will believe me more readily.

Ellen White is not the "prophet" the SDA Church .org has claimed she is.

[ClubV12]

Kevin, do you think her view (a literal view, a vision) on some slaves who will not be resurrected changed over the years? I don't think so.

"As to the request of Jesus Christ for God to forgive those humans who longed to see Jesus dead, that request was granted in spite of some who claim it was not granted."

No, it was not, and we see that in the bible itself.

The bible is clear that those who revilved Him, those who pierced Him, will see Him coming in the clouds of glory. As they are already dead how is that possible? Obviously, they will be resurrected to witness this event with their own eyes. They will see Him and call for the rocks and mountains to hide them from His glory. The Father was not able to forgive them, in spite of Jesus pleading and asking their forgivness.

I see Jesus pleading before the Father for every soul on earth that ever lived, to forgive them, in their ignorance, they know not what they do. Oh what wondrous love of our Saviour! But is forgiveness possible, for everyone, not matter what? No, it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Father to answer that prayer in every case, in MOST cases in fact. WHY? Because man has freewill, he can choose (in most, but not all cases) which path he wants to follow. The path that leads to everlasting life or eternal death. The Father, Jesus, does not reject them, they reject the love offered, they seal their own fate. They made their own choice.

[miz3]

For those who think that God did not and/or could not forgive those humans involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ there is also this Bible text.

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:31-32.

According to this Principle the Father would forgive all sins including the sin of being involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

In addition I challenge those who believe that God the Father could NOT FORGIVE those humans who were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ to cite the Bible and the Bible only as proof that their assertion is true.

Please give Book, Chapter and verse(s).

or

Does their doctrine on this come from Ellen White only.

I have shown positive proof of my position now show yours if you can.

[ClubV12]

Revelation 1:7, is ONE such verse.

"Graves are opened, and "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth" "awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." [DAN. 12:2.] All who have died in faith under the third angel’s message come forth from the tomb glorified, to hear God’s covenant of peace with those who have kept his law. "They also which pierced Him," those that mocked and derided Christ’s dying agonies, and the most violent opposers of his truth and his people, are raised to behold him in his glory, and to see the honor placed upon the loyal and obedient."

The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 4 pg 455

"Those who a little before were so reckless, so boastful and defiant, so exultant in their cruelty to God’s commandment-keeping people, are now overwhelmed with consternation, and shuddering in fear. Their wails are heard above the sound of the elements. Demons acknowledge the divinity of Christ, and tremble before his power, while men are supplicating for mercy, and groveling in abject terror.

The Spirit of Prophecy, Volume 4 pg 455

[miz3]

Let us look at the Bible when it talks about those who "pierced" Him.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,

and every eye will see him,

even those who pierced him;

and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.

So shall it be! Amen."

Revelation 1:7.

This text says only that those who pierced Him will see Jesus Christ come.

What it does not say is that God did not forgive them. In fact this text says absolutely nothing about whether these ones who pierced Christ were forgiven or not forgiven. Whether these ones are forgiven or not is not addressed in this text.

Sorry but we cannot use this text to show that those at the crucifixion of Christ were not forgiven. Some may have been raised to be saved in Heaven and some may have been raised to be lost. This Revelation chapter one verse seven does not tell us one way and/or the other.

Then we also have these texts:

"When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son[e] of God!"

Matthew 27:54.

"The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and[d] saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son[e] of God!"

Mark 15:38-39.

"The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man."

Luke 23:27.

Obviously some who mocked and pierced Him finally believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:31-32.

As Matthew chapter twelve points out even though these people blasphemed and spoke words against Jesus Christ they would be forgiven.

So God the Father can/does forgive even though those who pierced Him blasphemed and spoke words against the Christ.

Does this mean all those at the Cross who sinned in this manner will be saved? No!

Some will reject God and His Forgiveness but it is clear from these texts and when Peter in Acts spoke to the Jews on Pentecost that many of those Jews who also "mocked and pierced" Him were also forgiven and joined the ranks of the "believers" in Jesus Christ. Peter even states that these same are the same ones who "crucified" Jesus Christ.

Quoting Ellen White does not cut it because Ellen White does not trump and/or have a "higher inspiration" power over the Bible.

The Bible and the Bible alone has the "highest inspiration" Power.

[Kevin H]

ClubV12, I was writing in general, then realized that it might not be the best time to discuss this so I deleted the post but for some reason it did not delete.

Miz3, Mrs. White told how her visions and writings worked. However you refuse to believe her, the argument in your post is based on Stephen Haskel's view as to how visions work (which was also the view of the interdenominational Bible conference held in Philadelphia in 1919 that the Washington DC Bible Conference tried help our leaders who were headding to that conference about what the truth is, but lost the battle) and therefore because it based on a view of inspiration that I understand to be false I see your post as using the facts in an unfair and twisted biased way.

[miz3]

ClubV12, I was writing in general, then realized that it might not be the best time to discuss this so I deleted the post but for some reason it did not delete.

Miz3, Mrs. White told how her visions and writings worked. However you refuse to believe her, the argument in your post is based on Stephen Haskel's view as to how visions work (which was also the view of the interdenominational Bible conference held in Philadelphia in 1919 that the Washington DC Bible Conference tried help our leaders who were headding to that conference about what the truth is, but lost the battle) and therefore because it based on a view of inspiration that I understand to be false I see your post as using the facts in an unfair and twisted biased way.

First, I know nothing about Stephen Haskel and his view of how "visions and inspiration" work. I don't care to know either. I just know what the Bible says.

Second, I am also not interested in Ellen White's view of how inspiration works because any old fool could say that (and they do like Joseph Smith) and then claim they are inspired of God.

Third, when I see Ellen White clearly on direct contradiction (as you have already admitted she was) to the Bible I know that she (Ellen White) cannot be inspired as you are trying to claim.

Then you try and come up with some convoluted explanation of how inspiration works so as to get Ellen White off the hook. My friend Ellen White is on the hook and no words of human origin can change that. She clearly was not inspired when she made the statement about "brute beasts" in human form.

Ellen White said something that is in direct contradiction to the Bible and those who worship Ellen White now want out because you have no Biblical basis to show that Ellen White is correct.

I'm sorry but it appears you have stepped in it and you can't now back track without repudiating your former worship of Ellen White.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

While yes there are contradictions, too often people see contraditions where they do not really exist. Truth tends to be a oneness of opposits and we tend to grab on to one part of a set of opposits and refuse the rest. Then there are contradictions because prophets do grow. Too often with Mrs. White we turn to her earlier writings and don't see how her views developed through the years.

Again, that means when she uttered those words about "brute beasts" she was NOT speaking as one inspired but was just giving her opinion.

Thus, my point has been made that Ellen White was citing her own opinions in her writings and very very rarely was speaking what she received from God.

Since her opinions are now mixed we cannot say that every word she spoke in those volumes and volumes of books she got direct from God.

It looks like God did correct her opinions much later in her life. That means not every word she wrote came direct from God and as such is just her opinion.

I have been trying to tell you all this from the beginning. Maybe now that this CONTRADICTION has been exposed you will believe me more readily.

Ellen White is not the "prophet" the SDA Church .org has claimed she is.

This is to remind you what you actually said and my response to it.

[Kevin H]

Just because your mind is made up and does not want to be confused by the facts does not mean that the facts don't exist. I have nothing to back track from because I've held these views about Mrs. White since I studied her in college back in the 1970s.

[Dr. Rich]

Great post Miz3, I do see what you are so clearly pointing out. Thanks.

[Kevin H]

Prophet's words are not inspired, but the people in the office of prophet are inspired. Mrs. White describes what she did as being shown photographs and describing what she saw. She says that there is a frame work that these have fit into, and that she is sharing principles. Too often we as Adventists and critics of Adventism do not see the forest for the trees. Mrs. White has her framework and her application of the framework. The applications she would modify over time as she understood the frame work better. All the critics are focused on the application where Mrs. White tells us that there could be problems and refers us to the framework.

Once again I was not trying to discuss your specific post but state a general principle that I later thought would be better to discuss in a different context however when I deleted the message it ended up not deleteing.

[miz3]

Just because your mind is made up and does not want to be confused by the facts does not mean that the facts don't exist. I have nothing to back track from because I've held these views about Mrs. White since I studied her in college back in the 1970s.

So you are indeed confused by the FACTS. This is why you actually tried to pull your post to cover your mistake.