babies... born good or not

[ClubV12]

Knock it off miz3, your personal attacks and constant repetitive posts are of no value to this or any thread.

The PROOF you offer are LIES, they don't even rise to the level of personal opinion because they hurled into the face of those you don't agree with.

You are truly a disgusting little man whose ignorance is constantly on display.

[miz3]

And yet more proof.

Let us look at the Bible when it talks about those who "pierced" Him.

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,

and every eye will see him,

even those who pierced him;

and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.

So shall it be! Amen."

Revelation 1:7.

This text says only that those who pierced Him will see Jesus Christ come.

What it does not say is that God did not forgive them. In fact this text says absolutely nothing about whether these ones who pierced Christ were forgiven or not forgiven. Whether these ones are forgiven or not is not addressed in this text.

Sorry but we cannot use this text to show that those at the crucifixion of Christ were not forgiven. Some may have been raised to be saved in Heaven and some may have been raised to be lost. This Revelation chapter one verse seven does not tell us one way and/or the other.

Then we also have these texts:

"When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son[e] of God!"

Matthew 27:54.

"The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and[d] saw how he died, he said, “Surely this man was the Son[e] of God!"

Mark 15:38-39.

"The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man."

Luke 23:27.

Obviously some who mocked and pierced Him finally believed that Jesus Christ was the Messiah.

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:31-32.

As Matthew chapter twelve points out even though these people blasphemed and spoke words against Jesus Christ they would be forgiven.

So God the Father can/does forgive even though those who pierced Him blasphemed and spoke words against the Christ.

Does this mean all those at the Cross who sinned in this manner will be saved? No!

Some will reject God and His Forgiveness but it is clear from these texts and when Peter in Acts spoke to the Jews on Pentecost that many of those Jews who also "mocked and pierced" Him were also forgiven and joined the ranks of the "believers" in Jesus Christ. Peter even states that these same are the same ones who "crucified" Jesus Christ.

Quoting Ellen White does not cut it because Ellen White does not trump and/or have a "higher inspiration" power over the Bible.

The Bible and the Bible alone has the "highest inspiration" Power.

[miz3]

ClubV12, I was writing in general, then realized that it might not be the best time to discuss this so I deleted the post but for some reason it did not delete.

Miz3, Mrs. White told how her visions and writings worked. However you refuse to believe her, the argument in your post is based on Stephen Haskel's view as to how visions work (which was also the view of the interdenominational Bible conference held in Philadelphia in 1919 that the Washington DC Bible Conference tried help our leaders who were headding to that conference about what the truth is, but lost the battle) and therefore because it based on a view of inspiration that I understand to be false I see your post as using the facts in an unfair and twisted biased way.

First, I know nothing about Stephen Haskel and his view of how "visions and inspiration" work. I don't care to know either. I just know what the Bible says.

Second, I am also not interested in Ellen White's view of how inspiration works because any old fool could say that (and they do like Joseph Smith) and then claim they are inspired of God.

Third, when I see Ellen White clearly on direct contradiction (as you have already admitted she was) to the Bible I know that she (Ellen White) cannot be inspired as you are trying to claim.

Then you try and come up with some convoluted explanation of how inspiration works so as to get Ellen White off the hook. My friend Ellen White is on the hook and no words of human origin can change that. She clearly was not inspired when she made the statement about "brute beasts" in human form.

Ellen White said something that is in direct contradiction to the Bible and those who worship Ellen White now want out because you have no Biblical basis to show that Ellen White is correct.

I'm sorry but it appears you have stepped in it and you can't now back track without repudiating your former worship of Ellen White.

[ClubV12]

Hey, go start you own thread on your negative approach to life.

Will you PLEASE limit your comments to some reasonable amount and length.

You have taken over this thread, derailed it, you bring only confusion where ever you go with your twisted and irrational conclusions.

How many times do you have to repeat yourself? This is SPAM.

You don't like Ellen White, you hate that Church, we get it, we hear you, I DON'T CARE what you think.

Miz3 says,

"blah, blah, blah, blah...." Post after post after post.

[miz3]

And more proof without personal attacks.

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

While yes there are contradictions, too often people see contraditions where they do not really exist. Truth tends to be a oneness of opposits and we tend to grab on to one part of a set of opposits and refuse the rest. Then there are contradictions because prophets do grow. Too often with Mrs. White we turn to her earlier writings and don't see how her views developed through the years.

Again, that means when she uttered those words about "brute beasts" she was NOT speaking as one inspired but was just giving her opinion.

Thus, my point has been made that Ellen White was citing her own opinions in her writings and very very rarely was speaking what she received from God.

Since her opinions are now mixed we cannot say that every word she spoke in those volumes and volumes of books she got direct from God.

It looks like God did correct her opinions much later in her life. That means not every word she wrote came direct from God and as such is just her opinion.

I have been trying to tell you all this from the beginning. Maybe now that this CONTRADICTION has been exposed you will believe me more readily.

Ellen White is not the "prophet" the SDA Church .org has claimed she is.

This is to remind you what you actually said and my response to it.

[miz3]

What baby statement do you have in mind? I'm only familiar with the one about how some babies did not have their mothers answer their crys so the angels brought them to the tree of life.

As for the other statement, she her message and principle is opposing slavery, the responsibility of the slave owners in their treatment of humans and that they will be responsible for what happens to their slaves, and if they have so abused other humans that they know nothing else than hate and would protect them from the suffering of seeing Jesus in all his beauty if they had developed a character where they cannot feel at home in heaven.

ClubV12 was talking about an issue that many have recongnized in how there are some children who no matter how good an environment they live in still have some very bad problems, and frequently they come from a heritage of families that have had bad problems. Now God knows their capasity and will take care of them for what they know. Once again look at my understanding of hell fire. If they can find it heaven to be with Jesus they will be there.

Since there is no proof for your position in the Bible I can understand why you and others do not want to answer any more.

[miz3]

"God cannot take to heaven the slave who has been kept in ignorance and degradation, knowing nothing of God or the Bible, fearing nothing but his master's lash, and holding a lower position than the brutes.... He does the best thing for him that a compassionate God can do. He permits him to be as if he had not been,...." (Early Writings, p.276)

OK Mr. pkrause you have your statement thanks to ClubV12.

[ClubV12]

This is absolutely ridiculous!!!! Do the moderators on this forum have a CLUE or not?

I don't think so. SPAM, moderators, it's called SPAM. HELLO? Anyone paying attention?

The last ELEVEN posts on this thread, in a row, by miz3. What part of SPAM is so difficult to understand?

[miz3]

I am not attacking posters.

I am attacking what some believe because what they believe is not Biblical.

I am also upholding the position on this topic that I believe is true and I believe is Biblical.

[miz3]

I see people posting "speculation" that is not backed by the Biblical Record. In addition I see people using Ellen White over the Bible Record, even when Ellen White clearly disagrees with what the Bible actually states.

When such things are not only pointed but proved by me in my postings, I see people who have no Biblical answer so they cry foul and hurl every invective they can at me and after they have personally attacked me they then claim that they are the ones being attacked.

Is this what the SDA Church .org is actually about? Are these the ones who claim they are the pure and holy remnant? Are these the ones who claim God is on their side?

[ClubV12]

Yes you ARE attacking EVERY poster on this thread by bullying and taking it over and making it your own private soap box. By constantly posting your personal drivel and making it impossible to have a reasonable discussion.

You are the man in the back of the room shouting down every speaker who attempts to say something. I long for the POLICE to come take you away for disrupting the meeting and being a public nuisance.

[ClubV12]

In this most recent post what do we find?

Miz3 says,

"Originally Posted By: miz3

I see people posting "speculation" that is not backed by the Biblical Record. In addition I see people using Ellen White over the Bible Record, even when Ellen White clearly disagrees with what the Bible actually states.

When such things are not only pointed but proved by me in my postings, I see people who have no Biblical answer so they cry foul and hurl every invective they can at me and after they have personally attacked me they then claim that they are the ones being attacked.

Is this what the SDA Church .org is actually about? Are these the ones who claim they are the pure and holy remnant? Are these the ones who claim God is on their side?"

Your QUOTING YOURSELF! Copying and pasting that which you have ALREADY POSTED!!! This is madness, it's NUTS, you really are stretching the boundaries of reason into the realm of insanity.

[miz3]

Knock it off miz3, your personal attacks and constant repetitive posts are of no value to this or any thread.

The PROOF you offer are LIES, they don't even rise to the level of personal opinion because they hurled into the face of those you don't agree with.

You are truly a disgusting little man whose ignorance is constantly on display.

As you can see I offered Biblical proof of my position and showed through the Bible and the Bible only that some others position in there use of Ellen White was wrong. I made no personal attacks.

Yet look above and this is the response to my Biblical proof.

I wonder who is actually throwing the spam and the invectives and personal attacks?

Let the people see for themselves. My conscience is clear.

[ClubV12]

SO,,,, what part of SPAM don't YOU understand miz3?

You don't even HAVE a conscience to be clear!

[Gail]

Yep- let's give it a rest.