Increased Light? On What?

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

What is interesting here is that the first beast must be either a ruler or a group of rulers of the nations of this world, right? So, accourding to Paul's words in Romans 13, we have God to blame for setting up this beast. Truth is, Satan is in control of the Beast and of all of the rullers of the earth. Therefore we have a problem 'Huston'.

God is ultimately in charge, but Satan carries out the evil actions of setting up the rulers, although it is God that allows Satan and gives him the ultimatum. The story of Job is a perfect example. Satan asked God if He would put His hand on him, and then Job would curse God. But God answered back to Satan and said that He was giving him power to hurt Job, but just as long as he did not kill Job. So who was it inflicting Job? God or Satan? Both in a sense, but Satan is the reason it was happening. God simply allowed Satan to carry forward his work to "fulfill the will of God", and prove Satan a point or two.

Exactly, this is one of the points where there is more light that we have not been seeing. We are so worried about Calvin with God being in control in which he has half the truth and rejected the truth of free choice. We need to one the opposits of God in control and free choice. God said in Job that he inflected Job, yet the text says that Satan was doing it. Isaiah 66 says that God is the author of weel and woe, Jesus says that God sends the rain (showers of blessing) and sunshine (famine, hard times) on both the just and the unjust. They both go together. Was Pharaoh doing his own will or God's will in opposing Moses? Was Pilate and Caphias doing their own will or God's will? We tend too much to give God credit when things are going good but with the rough things we make it too much Satan doing it independent. God is dealing with the issues of the Great Controversy and what will happen so that the universe will willingly choose to either live in connection with the lifegiver, or choose to be sepperate from the source of life. Excellent answer Lysimachus!!!

[Gibs]

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

It fits much better and makes far more sense to realize this is Satan come forth personating the Lamb, Jesus Christ but in fact speaks as a dragon because that is who he really is. The greater part of the world will receive him as such too.

The United States is part of the first beast system of this chapter and not of Rev 13:11 on. The first beast of the chapter is the whole New World Order System and Satan is the puppeteer of it until he can come forth and be it's king whom the world will receive joyfully.

It's been playing out before your eyes in the true news now for many a year and if you can be awakened to see it it better be soon as the time is just around the corner that Satan gets to come forth and let me tell you he is busting to do so, it'ss be his last hurrah and he knows it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Sounds like you guys are speaking out of both of your mouths. Like: "Satan is in charge, but really God is in charge." Huh? Make up your minds--please. Either what Jesus said about Satan being in charge is correct or what Paul wrote in Romans 13 is correct. Those who believe God sets up the rulers will no doubt eagerly take the Mark of the Beast because they will be told it is God's rulers that He set up to give them the Mark.

The 'kingdoms of the world' or 'nations' are right now being controled by evil people that Satan set up, not God. It will not be until the 7th Trumpet sounds that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of the Heavens. That is future.

When Satan comes out of the abyss at the start of the 5th of last months of this earth's history, not only his spiritual power is at work, but his physical power will be at work and he will come in the likeness of Jesus Christ, fooling many by giving life to the image of the beast.

[miz3]

miz3,

I don't think she was confused. It's just because its both.

You mean Ellen White was both "confused" and "did not receive direct word from God the United States was in Revelation chapter thirteen"?

So you agree that satan is who is referred to in the second half of Revelation chapter thirteen?

[phkrause]

PK, it is clear that you have not read all of my posts or you would see where I have said many times that EGW said and wrote MANY good things and many things that are completely true--same for Paul's words! After all, a good counterfeit must look and smell like the real truth!

That's my point, you pick and choose. When I read the Bible I don't pick and choose when it doesn't seem to agree with what I've heard. I say well now I know better. Same with EGW.

[miz3]

It looks to me like the same old same old.

Just a patch work of things thrown together and then called solving the prophecy puzzle.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

PK, it is clear that you have not read all of my posts or you would see where I have said many times that EGW said and wrote MANY good things and many things that are completely true--same for Paul's words! After all, a good counterfeit must look and smell like the real truth!

That's my point, you pick and choose. When I read the Bible I don't pick and choose when it doesn't seem to agree with what I've heard. I say well now I know better. Same with EGW.

WHAT? STOP right now! You clearly are violating the 9th commandment, as I do not pick and choose what I use to build my foundation on, it is ONLY the words of Jesus. I merely pointed out that even EGW said something that was the truth--Dah! Your point is not at all well taken as it isn't even a point.

So you do not pick and choose what you read in the bible? Do you allow women to speak in Church? Well it's the same thing here, either Satan is the ruler of this world or what Paul wrote in Romans 13 is the truth. They both can't be even though people attempt to make them say the same thing.

[Lysimachus]

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

It fits much better and makes far more sense to realize this is Satan come forth personating the Lamb, Jesus Christ but in fact speaks as a dragon because that is who he really is. The greater part of the world will receive him as such too.

The United States is part of the first beast system of this chapter and not of Rev 13:11 on. The first beast of the chapter is the whole New World Order System and Satan is the puppeteer of it until he can come forth and be it's king whom the world will receive joyfully.

It's been playing out before your eyes in the true news now for many a year and if you can be awakened to see it it better be soon as the time is just around the corner that Satan gets to come forth and let me tell you he is busting to do so, it'ss be his last hurrah and he knows it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

But it is a beast with Two Lamb-Like Horns, and Satan does not look like that. Thus we know that if this beast speaks "as a Dragon", the Two-Horned Beast cannot be "THE Dragon", which is the Devil. Therefore, we see that it is the Devil manifesting himself THROUGH and speaking THROUGH this two-horned beast power.

We already know that a Beast represents a Kingdom according to Daniel 7. If this Lamb-Like Beast were Satan alone, then this would violate the Bible's own hermeneutical principles. The Bible does not violate itself when it comes to hermeneutical principles. It will not say in one place that a Beast represents a kingdom, then suddenly it represent a single individual such as the Devil.

Unequivocally, it is Satan manifesting itself THROUGH this beast power, as this nation will one day speak as a Dragon through its legislation. Satan will LEAD this nation as the United States follows him, and performs miracles before the Beast, the Papacy. Then Satan will take the lead as the head of the Papacy. Even Papists will be swept away by this false delusion, and crown him Pope--the last Pope!

It just has to do with how you're looking at it Gibs. Just a few little adjustments in the angles you're looking at it, and then you quickly discover that Ellen White was 100% right on both accounts. :)

[Gibs]

Lysimachus,

You forgot that when Satan appears it will be in a body of a man personating Jesus Christ. Lys, he will look like the "lamb" of God but he will not speak as Him because he, ole Satan is the dragon and speaks like the devil he is.

That is no cobble job as the interpetation before rendered to try to make it look like the USA. Besides that the text don't support it being the US. It supports the beast known as the great red dragon. To prove he is Yahshua/Jesus he will bring fire down from heaven and the next verse states he will do miracles.

He tells the whole world to make a likeness to HIS image beast, the first beast of the chapter which also has 7 heads and 10 horns, to being a go along with it, senior G. H. Bush's announced utopia One World Order, OWO.

From the one quote of EGW she also saw this view and it is the right one as the scripture and text of it bears it out and cannot be refuted.

You all will belive this rendering when Satan comes forth and he is due to do so in a very few more years. In the area of 4 to 5 years, I doubt it will be more than 5 but is possible less than 4 as the time is to be shortened for the elect's sake.

Yessir, Satan is the 666 of the chapter, not the USA!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

It fits much better and makes far more sense to realize this is Satan come forth personating the Lamb, Jesus Christ but in fact speaks as a dragon because that is who he really is. The greater part of the world will receive him as such too.

The United States is part of the first beast system of this chapter and not of Rev 13:11 on. The first beast of the chapter is the whole New World Order System and Satan is the puppeteer of it until he can come forth and be it's king whom the world will receive joyfully.

It's been playing out before your eyes in the true news now for many a year and if you can be awakened to see it it better be soon as the time is just around the corner that Satan gets to come forth and let me tell you he is busting to do so, it'ss be his last hurrah and he knows it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

But it is a beast with Two Lamb-Like Horns, and Satan does not look like that. Thus we know that if this beast speaks "as a Dragon", the Two-Horned Beast cannot be "THE Dragon", which is the Devil. Therefore, we see that it is the Devil manifesting himself THROUGH and speaking THROUGH this two-horned beast power.

We already know that a Beast represents a Kingdom according to Daniel 7. If this Lamb-Like Beast were Satan alone, then this would violate the Bible's own hermeneutical principles. The Bible does not violate itself when it comes to hermeneutical principles. It will not say in one place that a Beast represents a kingdom, then suddenly it represent a single individual such as the Devil.

Unequivocally, it is Satan manifesting itself THROUGH this beast power, as this nation will one day speak as a Dragon through its legislation. Satan will LEAD this nation as the United States follows him, and performs miracles before the Beast, the Papacy. Then Satan will take the lead as the head of the Papacy. Even Papists will be swept away by this false delusion, and crown him Pope--the last Pope!

It just has to do with how you're looking at it Gibs. Just a few little adjustments in the angles you're looking at it, and then you quickly discover that Ellen White was 100% right on both accounts.

1. Since you say that satan does not look like the "two horned" beast then you are stating that you know what satan looks like. Have you met satan personally so that you are an expert on what satan looks like? Please tell exactly what you satan looks like since you are an expert in this.

2. The Bible does exactly what you say it does not. In Daniel chapter two the Bible says the Nebuchadnezzar "is the head of gold". The Bible also says that Babylon the nation "is the head of gold".

Thus, you have a prophetic instance where and individual was represented by the symbol gold and at the exact same time a nation was symbolized by the "head of gold".

So I am afraid you are wrong about the Bible and the "hermeneutical principles". It appears that the "rules" of the Bible differ from what you say they are which is why you are often wrong in your analysis.

Thus it is possible that Revelation chapter thirteen second half could have a "beast" and/or "image to the beast" which represents an individual such as satan.

3. The Bible does not say in this Revelation chapter thirteen second half that satan is working "through" this beast and/or image to the beast. That is your addition.

4. I'd say Ellen White already tipped her hand with Gib's quote that says Revelation chapter thirteen second half is "satan" and not the United States as she previously thought.

I must admit that this particular passage does fit satan far better than it fits the United States.

[skyblue888]

In the study of the order of last day events, it soon becomes apparent that there is one event that emerges as a key happening in the sequence. It is quickly established as a peg in a sure place and having it in place it is possible to draw up the lines of sequence out from it in either directions. That event is the setting up of the image of the beast. Its setting up is foretold in Revelation 13:11-18.

The first beast referred to in Revelation 13, as set forth in the first ten verses of the chapter, is none other than the Papal power that ruled supreme over the world for the 1260 years from 538-1798 A.D. The Lamb-like beast that rises to power after the temporary demise of the first beast is none other than the power of Apostate Protestantism especially as cradled in the United Sates of America.

In this chapter (Rev.13) we are expressly told that this power as symbolized by the lamblike beast will set up an image of the first beast that had the wound by the sword and did live. What is an image? It is a likeness in the form of a reproduction of that which was before, the same thing all over again.

And there can be no mistake as to what this reproduction is. There can be no mistake on two counts. In the first case the actual image itself is described to us here in Rev. 13, and in the second case we have but to go back and study the character of the first beast to see what the image is to be. We find that they are identical.

"By this first beast is represented the Roman Church, an ecclesiastical body clothed with civil power, having authority to punish all dissenters. The image to the beast represents another religious body with similar powers. The formation of this image is the work of that beast whose peaceful rise and mild professions render it so striking a symbol of the United States. Here is to be found an image of the Papacy. When the churches of our land, uniting upon such points of faith as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and sustain their institutions, then will Protestant America have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy. Then the true church will be assailed by persecution, as were God's ancient people." Story of Redemption, pp.381,382.

We find that we have a religious power that has enlisted the power of the state as her servant and uses that power to enforce her decrees even to the end, to the death penalty where men refuse to yield to her demands. Thus it was with the Papacy and thus we are plainly told it will be with the image. Rev.13:15-18. This is a picture of what is coming to that which is now the free world and, first of all, in that nation which has all along steadfastly held to the right of every man to the utmost freedom to choose as to how and where he will worship or as to whether he will worship at all.

There are those that cannot believe that this could ever be possible. But the word of God has declared that it will be and that is all that we have to believe. The more one studies the prophecies, then the more we see that things that men could never believe were possible but were foretold in the Word, did happen just as they were foretold to happen.

Of course there are factors that lead up to this. There are forces that gradually bring it about so that it does not exactly happen over night. These have also been clearly outlined in the prophetic word and it is important that we study them. This we will do in the proper order once we have established the actual fact of the setting up of the image of the beast in the United States of America and what is involved in that action.

sky

[Gibs]

No way, Sky, Here is why,

People don't do any reasoning of their own and will fight to prove what they have come to believe whether it will "hold water" or not. Please follow this for a little,

Re 13:3 And I saw ONE of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The beast has SEVEN heads and just ONE is wounded to death and this one is the papacy, to be exact the SIXTH head.

Now the verse continues and states "and all the world wondered after the beast", and not that one wounded head.

This first beast of the chapter is the New World Order System that Satan changed it to in making the HORNS of the beast the ones with the KING power. This is our NWO and it is the image of Satan's own self in that it too has seven heads and ten horns.

When Satan is allowed to come up out of the earth, bottomless pit where he was cast into, he will be the eighth head and he will then be the NWO Systems great king, yes personating Yahshua/Jesus and almost the whole world will believe it.

It will play out this way, a few short years will prove this view.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus,

You forgot that when Satan appears it will be in a body of a man personating Jesus Christ. Lys, he will look like the "lamb" of God but he will not speak as Him because he, ole Satan is the dragon and speaks like the devil he is.

That is no cobble job as the interpetation before rendered to try to make it look like the USA. Besides that the text don't support it being the US. It supports the beast known as the great red dragon. To prove he is Yahshua/Jesus he will bring fire down from heaven and the next verse states he will do miracles.

He tells the whole world to make a likeness to HIS image beast, the first beast of the chapter which also has 7 heads and 10 horns, to being a go along with it, senior G. H. Bush's announced utopia One World Order, OWO.

From the one quote of EGW she also saw this view and it is the right one as the scripture and text of it bears it out and cannot be refuted.

You all will belive this rendering when Satan comes forth and he is due to do so in a very few more years. In the area of 4 to 5 years, I doubt it will be more than 5 but is possible less than 4 as the time is to be shortened for the elect's sake.

Yessir, Satan is the 666 of the chapter, not the USA!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Like I said, a Beast represents a kingdom, and to identify the Two-Horned Beast as a single man is to violate the Bible's own rules and be inconsistent.

Is that where we get the "two-horned" devil from?

Now what do the two-horns represent Gibs?

[Lysimachus]

In the study of the order of last day events, it soon becomes apparent that there is one event that emerges as a key happening in the sequence. It is quickly established as a peg in a sure place and having it in place it is possible to draw up the lines of sequence out from it in either directions. That event is the setting up of the image of the beast. Its setting up is foretold in Revelation 13:11-18.

The first beast referred to in Revelation 13, as set forth in the first ten verses of the chapter, is none other than the Papal power that ruled supreme over the world for the 1260 years from 538-1798 A.D. The Lamb-like beast that rises to power after the temporary demise of the first beast is none other than the power of Apostate Protestantism especially as cradled in the United Sates of America.

In this chapter (Rev.13) we are expressly told that this power as symbolized by the lamblike beast will set up an image of the first beast that had the wound by the sword and did live. What is an image? It is a likeness in the form of a reproduction of that which was before, the same thing all over again.

And there can be no mistake as to what this reproduction is. There can be no mistake on two counts. In the first case the actual image itself is described to us here in Rev. 13, and in the second case we have but to go back and study the character of the first beast to see what the image is to be. We find that they are identical.

"By this first beast is represented the Roman Church, an ecclesiastical body clothed with civil power, having authority to punish all dissenters. The image to the beast represents another religious body with similar powers. The formation of this image is the work of that beast whose peaceful rise and mild professions render it so striking a symbol of the United States. Here is to be found an image of the Papacy. When the churches of our land, uniting upon such points of faith as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and sustain their institutions, then will Protestant America have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy. Then the true church will be assailed by persecution, as were God's ancient people." Story of Redemption, pp.381,382.

We find that we have a religious power that has enlisted the power of the state as her servant and uses that power to enforce her decrees even to the end, to the death penalty where men refuse to yield to her demands. Thus it was with the Papacy and thus we are plainly told it will be with the image. Rev.13:15-18. This is a picture of what is coming to that which is now the free world and, first of all, in that nation which has all along steadfastly held to the right of every man to the utmost freedom to choose as to how and where he will worship or as to whether he will worship at all.

There are those that cannot believe that this could ever be possible. But the word of God has declared that it will be and that is all that we have to believe. The more one studies the prophecies, then the more we see that things that men could never believe were possible but were foretold in the Word, did happen just as they were foretold to happen.

Of course there are factors that lead up to this. There are forces that gradually bring it about so that it does not exactly happen over night. These have also been clearly outlined in the prophetic word and it is important that we study them. This we will do in the proper order once we have established the actual fact of the setting up of the image of the beast in the United States of America and what is involved in that action.

sky

Amen Sky.

And do you know why Gibs cannot adapt this interpretation? Because to accept that the Two-Horned Beast is primarily realized in the United States of America would be to destroy his entire Futuristic scheme concerning the 42 months. He places the 42 months in the future, and he knows that the Two-Horned Beast comes after. So in order to make it fit, he cannot let the Two-Horned Beast be a kingdom. It must be a single Devil-man. All of this has been exposed as theology emanating straight from the extra-Biblical writings, and the Beliar Myth. The Beliar Myth and the futuristic ideas come from The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, The Sibylline Oracles, Baruch, 1st and 2nd Esdras, T. Levi, The Ascension of Isaiah, etc. etc. The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha writings were written by Hellenistic Jews. These Jews mixed Babylonian, Persian, and Greek paganism with Judaism. Long before the first advent of Christ, mystical Jews believed that an anti-messiah would come and oppose the Messiah; the anti-messiah was called "Beliar"; and he was believed to be the devil incarnate in human form. . The early Church Fathers such as Ireneaus, Hippolytus, and Apollinaris borrowed Futurist elements from these mythical, pseudepigraphal writings. The Jesuits created Futurism from the Beliar myth found in these writings, indicating that modern Dispensational Futurist theology is nothing more than pagan mythology convoluted around real scripture. The Protestants of the Reformation era knew about this fable, and Protestants separated the real Bible from the extra-Biblical writings. When the Protestants studied the Bible without the fables of the Catholic Church fathers - the Beliar myth - they clearly identified the Papacy as the Antichrist.

To place the 42 months into the future, and to imagine that the Two-Horned Beast is exclusively attributed to Satan, is to sympathize with Rome, and do them a great favor.

[Lysimachus]

No way, Sky, Here is why,

People don't do any reasoning of their own and will fight to prove what they have come to believe whether it will "hold water" or not. Please follow this for a little,

Re 13:3 And I saw ONE of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

The beast has SEVEN heads and just ONE is wounded to death and this one is the papacy, to be exact the SIXTH head.

Now the verse continues and states "and all the world wondered after the beast", and not that one wounded head.

This first beast of the chapter is the New World Order System that Satan changed it to in making the HORNS of the beast the ones with the KING power. This is our NWO and it is the image of Satan's own self in that it too has seven heads and ten horns.

When Satan is allowed to come up out of the earth, bottomless pit where he was cast into, he will be the eighth head and he will then be the NWO Systems great king, yes personating Yahshua/Jesus and almost the whole world will believe it.

It will play out this way, a few short years will prove this view.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

False exegesis.

First off, you are aware that there are at least 12 interpretations of the 7 heads of the beast? All of them have good arguments too, and all of them also have their weak points. So for you to pretend that you have the magic bullet to solve the problem is unwarrantable.

Your entire theory is based on the predilection of a futuristic theory of 8-end-time-Popes which is unproven prophecy, and yet to be scene. Prophecy is not understood until after it happens.

Secondly, while you state that only "ONE" head is wounded, you seem to be ignoring verse 12 which states, "the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed." Notice that it does not qualify a "head", but simply that the "first beast" had a "deadly wound". These 7 heads clearly are 7 phases of Babylon, the Papacy during the Dark Ages clearly being the 5th phase.

[Gibs]

Lys,

It don't matter to the prophecy how many popes Catholicism has had. What I pointed out and scripture upholds it she is the ONE head that was wounded, the church system, lost it's crown for one thing and no longer could do Martyrdom without recompense. That is your proof.

Re 13:3 And I saw "ONE" of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and "all the world wondered after the beast".

"That beast" is the whole system of 7 heads and 10 horns.

The one head is the religious system, the papacy, not the pope. Not the pope, knocking him out ended the churches supremacy, no longer has king power and never will again.

From EGW, " I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother." {SpM 1.4}

The fact we know she is a religious system lets us realize the other six are also, OK the 5 before her are fallen, Rev 17:10 tells us. What made these fall? The fact that at that time Judaism had a prophecied Saviour and was proven and became Christianity because He is it's King. No other religious system has or had a PROVEN Saviour. So this reveals it was the sixth religious system. It then became corrupted to become for the most part the Papacy.

Then the seventh was to come, protestantism out of Catholicism and it coninued around 500 yrs. and now is dead.

EGW, "The Bible is to be our guidebook, and instead of consulting the wisdom of men, and accepting as divine truth the assertions of finite mortals, we should search the sure word of prophecy. God has spoken, and his word is reliable, and we must rest our faith upon a "Thus saith the Lord." God would have us study the events that are taking place around us, and compare them with the predictions of his word, in order that we may understand that we are living in the last days. We want our Bibles, and we want to know what is written therein. The diligent student of prophecy will be rewarded with clear revelations of truth, for Jesus said, "Thy word is truth." {ST, October 1, 1894 par. 8}

Adventists for many years now will not really study their Bibles to prove or disaprove the set forth idea that all prophecy is fulfilled. It has not been! To say so is foolish!

Really was EGW a historicist? Check this out please!

Study the Books of Daniel and Revelation Especially

There is need of a much closer study of the Word of God; especially should Daniel and the Revelation have attention as never before. . . . The light that Daniel received from God was given especially for these last days.--TM 112, 113 (1896). {LDE 15.3}

Let us read and study the twelfth chapter of Daniel. It is a warning that we shall all need to understand before the time of the end.--15MR 228 (1903). {LDE 15.4}

The last book of the New Testament scriptures is full of truth that we need to understand.--COL 133 (1900). {LDE 15.5}

The unfulfilled predictions of the book of Revelation are soon to be fulfilled. This prophecy is now to be studied with diligence by the people of God and should be clearly understood. It does not conceal the truth; it clearly forewarns, telling us what will be in the future.--1NL 96 (1903). {LDE 15.6}

The solemn messages that have been given in their order in the Revelation are to occupy the first place in the minds of God's people.--8T 302 (1904). {LDE 16.1}

Notice the dates!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Thanks lysi.

Gibs, I am trying to follow your reasoning but for the life of me I can't. I am afraid you are not doing justice to the statements you are quoting, putting your own personal construction upon them. Statements must be interpreted by other statements, as we are told in 1 S.M.42.

THE TIMING FOR THE SETTING UP OF THE IMAGE BEAST

At what point of time will the image be set up? What act upon the part of men will establish it? What is involved in this? These are the questions that are now to be answered. And the answers are there. There is no mystery about it. Let us turn to the prophetic word for the answers:

"When the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held in common, shall influence the state to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions, then Protestant America will have formed an image of the Roman hierarchy and the infliction of civil penalties upon dissenters will inevitably result... The 'image to the beast' represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas." The Great Controversy, p.445.

"Romanists declare that 'the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves to the authority of the (catholic) church.' Mgr. Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestants of Today, p.213. The enforcement of Sunday-keeping on the part of Protestant churches is an enforcement of the worship of the papacy, of the beast of Rev.13:1-10. Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false instead of the true Sabbath, are thereby giving homage to the power by which it is commanded. But in the very act of enforcing a religious duty by secular power, the churches would themselves form an image to the beast; hence the enforcement of Sunday-keeping in the United States would be an enforcement of the worship of the beast and his image." The Great Controversy, pp.448-449.

Thus is answered the question, At what point of time will the image of the beast be set up? It will be set up at that point of time when the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such point of doctrine as they hold in common, shall obtain the power of the civil authorities to enforce as law the laws and injunctions of the church itself especially in regard to the enforcement of the Sunday legislation. That time is still future but it is not too much distant anymore. Already the movement for church unity is well advanced and strides have been made in this direction that would not have been thought possible but a few short years ago.

Many see in this unity a great blessing for the world and it is true that the prayer of Christ is for the unity of His people. But let us never forget that the unity that Jesus prayed for is not the root, but the fruit. First comes the unity with the truth of God and then all that are united with that truth will in turn be united with each other as the fruit of the basic unity with the truth.

The unity proposed here is not a platform of truth but as an expediency to gain a substitute power for the power of God. Having lost the power of God in the rejection of the great truths of the Advent message, the only remaining power that the churches can turn to is the arm of the state. But they cannot gain this power until they can go as a united front to take it up. Therefore they must first unify among themselves so that they will have the power to go to the state and demand and obtain that power to enforce their wishes. The reasons for this and the factors involved will be more fully developed as we proceed into this series of studies.

Some may feel that the image of the beast must already be set up because there are numerous Sunday Laws upon the State books throughout the United States as well as in Australia, Canada and Europe. But at the present time these stand largely unenforced while the time will come when, in the face of certain issues, there will be a strong uniting of the churches and a very definite enforcement of the law on a national basis. It will be a nation wide affair that will involve the Constitution. It will be a "national apostasy which will end only in national ruin." Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.976.

So there we have before us fact number one. The setting up of the enforcement of the Sunday law as the will of the leading and by then united churches on a national scale in the United States of America first, is the setting up of the image of the beast. But what takes place in the United States first is followed by every other country on the face of the globe. This is evident from the fact that the message of warning against the beast and his image as contained in Revelation 14:6-12 is a warning that is sent to "every nation, kindred, tongue and people."

"As America, the land of religious liberty, shall unite with the Papacy in forcing the conscience and compelling men to honour the false sabbath, the people of every country of the globe will be led to follow her example."

"Foreign nations will follow the example of the United States. Though she leads out, yet the same crisis will come upon our people in all parts of the world." Testimonies, Vol.6, pp.18,395.

SKY

[Gibs]

Lys, Sky, I didn't figure you to understand it, but there is many that do. I am sure it will be as I have posted. I know you and many others are afraid to look at it for yourself if the given interpretation will hold water. Personally I and many others know it don't.

I must take what the scripture makes it out to be and it is very clear to me.

EGW, "We do not dwell sufficiently upon the Revelation and the book of Daniel. These books should be published together in pamphlet form, with a few explanations added, and they should be circulated everywhere. The words of inspiration will do their appointed work; for the Holy Spirit will impress hearts in regard to the prophecies given." {PC 99.2}

The light on what the crowns changing to the Horns of the beast after 1798, Adventism never caught.

Another is, It never was realized the heads have to all be the same, since it is revealed that it was the papacy is a religious system that is the clue needed. Then the versse in Rev. 17:10,11,12,13 make some revelation available, that for one the papacy is the sixth head.

Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Re 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Re 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Re 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

I know most will not receive this.

It is for those who are not biased so they do see it. The scroll is unrolled after the pioneers and many there be who will not see that.

The proof of the right interpretation is soon to play out.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, the probem I see is that to fully understand end time prophecy, it's the rules again. EGW did not follow those rules and besides, she is not here living in the last generation. Therefore, she couldn't possible know the truth. She called the prophecy "predictions" telling us that she did not know the difference between prediction and prophecy.

I have one suggestion tho, and that is to take a look at the wounded head--not the beast, but the head itself. Notice that the wound was caused by a sword--this shows me that it was caused by a war. No other religious group had their way of worship stop because of a war other than the Jews.

As EGW was wrong on many issues, so was she wrong to have the Catholics and the pope be the target for this wounded head. Dan. 7: clearly shows us that Rome has been destroyed and will never play a part in the end time events again. Many have been deceived by the false flag.

[skyblue888]

The setting up of the image of the beast is a most significant event. It is an event that brings the world to a certain point of acute crisis and ushers in a series of chain reactions that end only in the seven last plagues, the coming of the Lord in glory and the destruction of the wicked. Hence the importance of putting this peg in its sure place at the very outset of this study.

In the first case this act brings the United States first of all, and each other nation in their turn as they follow her, to the point of national apostasy:

"When our nation in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those that keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in the land and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." RH Dec.18, 1888.

Note that this statement distinctly equates the passing of the Sunday law and its enforcement on the national scale with national apostasy. This is further made plain in this statement that tells us that by this act the USA will have fully disconnected herself from righteousness.

"By the decree enforcing the institution of the Papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its constitution as a Protestant and Republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehood and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. As the approach of the Roman soldiers was a sign to the disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, so may this apostasy be a sign to us that the limit of God's forbearance is reached and that the angel of mercy is about to take her flight, never to return." 5 T 451

"When Protestant churches shall unite with the secular powers to sustain a false religion for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will the papal sabbath be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin." Evangelism p.235.

"It is at the time of the national apostasy, when, acting the policy of Satan, the rulers of the land will rank themselves on the side of the man of sin, it is then that the measure of guilt is full; the national apostasy is the signal for national ruin." Selected Messages, Vol.2, p.373.

These statements need no further comment. They plainly tell that the act of passing and enforcing a Sunday law as an act of homage to the papacy, is an act of national apostasy that brings the complete severance from all righteousness, fills the measure of their guilt and causes the angel of mercy to leave, never to return.

sky

[skyblue888]

It is no wonder that this is a significant event and one that is fraught with fearful consequences. It is the great point of no return. Once that step is taken then the powers of this earth will have gone too far to return and their destruction is certified. But there is more yet to be learned about this event, for by it the device of Satan will be perfected. For a long time the devil has been working to bring the whole world under his complete control and to unite it into one vast army of confederated opposition against the people and the truth of God.

Now at last his device is perfected and he is ready for the last great battle of the ages. Note how clearly this fact of the perfecting of his device is stated in the following quotation:

"When the legislature frames laws which exalt the first day of the week, and put it in the place of the seventh day, the device of Satan will be perfected." RH, April 15, 1890.

Inasmuch as the whole object of the devil from the very beginning has been to make of none effect the law of God, (G.C.582) then it follows that if the device of Satan has been perfected at this time, then The law of God is also made void.

And so it proves to be as these statements show.

"A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in our land. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, and thus God's people will be brought into great peril. When our nation in its legislative assemblies, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of man in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the Seventh day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in the land; and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin." Review and Herald, Dec.18,1888.

Very naturally this will bring a great test for the people of God.

"The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes: for it is to be the great test for the people of God by which their eternal destiny will be decided... Rev.13:11-17 quoted here)... This is the great test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of divine origin, and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast." Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p. 976.

Finally we will notice that this event marks the signal to flee from the cities. "As the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was the signal for flight to the Judean Christians, so the assumption of power on the part of our nation in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains." 5 T 464,465.

And now without advancing the evidences, we will state here that this is also the time for the complete spiritual fall of Babylon the Great and the beginning of the loud cry to the world.

to be continued

[Lysimachus]

In a nutshell, the Lord showed Ellen White the true meaning of those Biblical passages. So basically, those who are interpreting those passages to mean that the Two-Horned Beast is NOT the USA need to humbly accept that their interpretations of those passages are hampered by human perceptions.

Line up 20 professors on New Testament theology from different universities, and they will all give you a different interpretation of Revelation 13. All of them will give "sound" and "convincing" reasons for why their interpretation is right, and everyone else's wrong.

Ellen White's interpretation of Revelation 13 went beyond human wisdom. The Divine Spirit guided her understanding, and these thoughts were not her thoughts, but God planted these thoughts in her mind, and she conveyed them in writing. These words ARE inspired. These thoughts take into consideration the PAST, the PRESENT and the FUTURE.

[Gibs]

It just wasn't time for her or any at that time to see those prophecies yet.

Our best bet is to discern the scripture correctly. You really have to wrest it to take it as was promoted before it's time by anyone. The answer can esily be seen now as it is high time. Just do it with a mind not shut to seeing it with preconceived idea.

If you remember she said "IT HAS BEEN SHOWN" not "I WAS SHOWN" on the beast being the USA.

It is when she stated "I WAS SHOWN" or "I SAW" you better sit up and pay attention.

Remember Paul said,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

John said,

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

All spoke their own mind at times including EGW.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

It just wasn't time for her or any at that time to see those prophecies yet.

[Gibs]

Lys,

It's OK by me how you take it. I am of a different opinion and shortly it will play out. It puzzles me though that you and many others find all prophecy is fulfilled.

If you find there is some that aren't, are you then not a historicist.

And you tell me this is fulfilled,

Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.