The Human Will/Choice and its Dilemma.

[miz3]

We actually have a dilemma.

Are humans what they are because of the "choices" they have made?

Or

Do humans make the choices they do because of what they are?

If you take a side in this debate can you prove which of these two questions is the correct principle upon which humans actually operate?

Please give evidence if you can.

If you cannot give proof, then be good enough to say this actually just your opinion.

[rodgertutt]

We actually have a dilemma.

#1. Are humans what they are because of the "choices" they have made?

Or

#2. Do humans make the choices they do because of what they are?

If you take a side in this debate can you prove which of these two questions is the correct principle upon which humans actually operate?

Please give evidence if you can.

If you cannot give proof, then be good enough to say this actually just your opinion.

It is my opinion that #2 is correct because I am a theistic determinist.

Let me try to explain by giving you my collection of random thoughts on the human will.

There is some repetition for emphasis.

THERE IS NO “CHANCE” THAT WE CAN CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE

Our choices are not made because we had a “chance” to make, or not to make them.

I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.

Theologically this is called God’s decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God’s preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

The kind of fatalism that I reject is the kind that says that things happen no matter what we do.

The truth is that things happen because of what we do, even though what we choose to do is caused by the reasons why we want to choose a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice at any give point in time.

A few seconds before, we might not have wanted it the MOST.

A few seconds later, we might not have wanted it the MOST.

It may even be true that most of the time we would have wanted to choose something else the MOST.

But at that point in time when we actually make a choice, it's because we want it the MOST, and, at that point in time there is no “chance” that we could have chosen anything else.

As a theistic determinist I believe that nothing happens by “chance” and that God intends to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone, than had it not occurred. That includes the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as kolasis aionion (age during corrective chastisement) that everyone who needs it will experience. Then, when the existence of evil and suffering has served God’s purpose, He will eradicate both of them from our existence.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL by A.P. Adams is good on this subject!

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html

As far as salvation is concerned I don’t believe it happens because we are given a “chance.”

As a universalist I believe the Bible teaches that the first fruits of election, the remnant chosen by grace out of each generation, will be saved first. Then all of the non-elect will be saved later.

The following two links are good on this subject.

REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS

God's Plan Of The Ages; The Purpose Of God In This Age; Redemption In Two Parts; As In Adam - So In Christ; Every Man In His Own Order; All Things In Subjection; God All In All

http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html

and

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

The eons of the Bible with Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.

Everything we do is the product of a cause, that cause being the reasons why we prefer one choice the MOST, instead of a different choice.

The fact that you chose it proves that you preferred it at least slightly more than some other choice, or you would not have chosen it.

Your reasons for choosing what you choose are the cause of your making any choice. It is not possible to make a different choice from what your combined reasonings motivate you to prefer the MOST at any point in time.

Nothing God does is "meaningless." When we look back from the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time, everyone will agree that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.

It is not even possible to choose any differently (after due deliberation or instantly) than the combined reasonings persuade us to prefer that choice the MOST at that particular moment in time, so much so that we actually do choose it.

In other words, the only "free" will we have is to choose what our combined reasonings persuade us in the choice that we prefer the MOST at that particular point in time. It is not even possible that any other choice could have been made than that one.

It is not even possible to not choose what that reason persuades us is the choice we want to make the MOST at any particular moment in time.

A man devises his ways by using all the info at his disposal.

The end result will be the only "way" he could have devised.

Considering all combined influences in devising that particular way, there simply was no other way that he could have devised at that particular point in time.

We will work out our salvation in response to the combined influences that cause us to work it out in a particular way, the only way that we could possibly work it out. No other way could even be possible.

We are individuals who always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings persuade us is the choice that we prefer the MOST. The fact that we actually choose it proves that we prefer it the MOST.

No other choice is even possible.

The one thing we have in common with robots is causality.

In the case of humans the cause is the combined reasonings why we prefer one choice the MOST instead of a different one.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer MOST.

The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it MOST even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.

During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.

If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose. That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.

In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.

Our not wanting to reap the consequences becomes part of the reasoning process that causes us to choose to change our ways. The "not wanting" becomes so strong that it is no longer possible to choose to reap the consequences.

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, or not, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.

That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.

The idea that it is wrong for God to hold us accountable for choices that we cannot help making is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is what we want to choose the MOST.

Like I said before, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

That is why I call myself a theistic determinist.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

Scripturally or otherwise, it has, and always will be true, that we always, without exception, choose what our combined reasonings and feelings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

The fact that we choose some certain thing instead of something else, proves that we preferred that certain thing the MOST, even though we may try to claim that we really preferred something else the most.

I agree with Albert Einstein, who said, “I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

Albert Einstein, IDEAS AND OPINIONS, pp.8,39; New York: Crown Publishers, 1954

Instead of God being a "gentleman," I worship a God Who will, sooner or later, successfully influence the will of every fallen creature for their own good, so they will WANT what He wants for them, which does not include sustaining them alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering or annihilating them.

I call myself a theistic determinist because I believe in a God Who has decided that the fate of every fallen creature will be salvation from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will.

As Martin Zender puts it

“We all have wills, they are just not free.

Then why do we even exist, we might ask? Why do our wills exist? Is God playing chess with Himself? Why does He even need us? Why does He bother letting us think that we’re free?

I think it is in this perceived realm of freedom that we live and learn. God has given us the gift of NOT FEELING HIS CONTROL, and it is this gift that allows us to struggle with decisions, suffer for mistakes, and revel in the overcoming of obstacles.

It is this gift that allows us to turn to Him with tears both of sorrow and of joy.

I think the idea is to bring us in humble adoration to His feet. If it takes a sovereign God to assure that we come to this blessed place, then let’s let Him be sovereign—at the same time reveling in our perceived (but not actual) freedom.” (end quote)

I think that negative experiences work into us the motivation to choose differently in the future.

The apostle Paul's frustration was that, regretfully, he sometimes preferred sinning. The fact that he actually chose sinning demonstrated that, at least momentarily, he preferred it, or he would not have chosen it. It is what we actually do that demonstrates our true preference. We can say we don't prefer it, but our actions speak louder than words.

Sometimes Paul's sinful nature was the strongest influence in his life.

Romans 7:14-25 makes it plain that in no way was Paul’s will “free.”

But the Spirit of God taught Paul through experiences that in those times that “the sin that dwelt within him” (v20) preferred sinning; he could then reach out to Jesus for rescue. This God-taught attitude gradually, and no doubt reflexively, became the strongest influence on Paul’s will in his war with his sinful nature.

I found it helpful what Ray Prinzing said.

“Don’t accept condemnation for not being able to “work out” what God has not yet worked into you.”

Without exception, every person comes to the point of actually choosing what the combination of their reasonings and feelings tell them they prefer the MOST. When that choice has been decided upon, it is impossible to avoid making that particular choice at that split second in time.

In other words, when it comes down to actually making a choice, either after due deliberation, or instantly, we will always choose what we have decided that we prefer the MOST.

Here's the way that James Coram puts it.

"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.”

The commitment of Jesus to do the will of His Father far outweighed His desire to escape the suffering He saw ahead of Him.

He definitely made the choice that He preferred the MOST.

In fact, that is the only choice that any of us can make, i.e. the choice that we prefer the MOST.

Everyone will ALWAYS choose what they both prefer and desire the MOST.

Here's the way that James Coram puts it.

"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

Albert Einstein put it this way “I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

My own quote.

"After due deliberation we always make the choice that our combined reasonings and feelings (i.e. preferences and desires) convince us is the choice that we prefer and desire the MOST.

The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer and desire it the MOST, or we would have made some other choice instead."

If we choose "the tough thing" it is ONLY because we prefer that choice.

Our reasonings and feelings combine to influence us to prefer that choice the MOST instead of a choice that is not as "tough."

I'll try putting it a different way.

Everything has to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.

What we prefer MOST, and what we determine is the best course of action from the information available are one and the same thing.

I find it completely relaxing to go through life believing that I am controlled by the strings in God's loving hands!

We do share one thing in common with puppets, and that is causality.

Everything we do is the product of a cause.

And that cause is the combined reasonings and feelings that persuade us to prefer a certain choice the MOST instead of a different choice.

It is not even possible to choose what we do not prefer the MOST.

As a UR, I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross.

That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

POST SCRIPT:

Limited free will is an oxymoron - a contradiction in terms.

Limited means constrained.

Free means without constraint.

[Guest]

So it's Jesus who causes all the death and destruction here on earth, because it's his will?

Or is it God the Father's will?

[rodgertutt]

So it's Jesus who causes all the death and destruction here on earth, because it's his will?

Or is it God the Father's will?

Yes, I believe that both are true.

[dialoguewithus]

I agree with rodgertutt

Romans 8:20

For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation

“Vanity” is the Greek mat ai o’t es

It appears in two other verses:

Eph. 4:17 “in the vanity of their mind, their comprehension being darkened”

2 Pt. 2:18 “uttering pompous vanity”

“Voluntarily” must refer to the creation, rather than to Him Who subjects the creation to vanity. It was not the will of creation, but the will of the Creator, that things should be as they are. Why did He subject the creation to vanity? He did it “in expectation that the creation itself also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” Did creation have that expectation on its own? Of course not. Only God sees the end from the beginning. Only He was aware of the fact that “not as the offense, thus also the grace.” Only He knew that the gratuity in grace to the many superabounds. Ro. 5:15. Only God knew and knows how to make good come out of evil. Only God can foresee a superior outcome in a redeemed creation vs. an innocent creation. Gen. 3:22. Ecclesiastes 1:13 (CLV)- “I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.” God was not surprised by sin, nor is it a mystery to Him. He made the Adversary, or he who He knew would become the Adversary. God made Adam and the tree of knowledge, knowing what would happen. God is love. God has all power. He is all-wise. Trust Him!

Ecc. 1:13 http://interlinearbible.org/ecclesiastes/1-13.htm

7451 ra’ http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/h7451/page/2

6031 la ‘a no wt http://studybible.info/strongs/H6031

[miz3]

I have read every word so far.

Fascinating, just simply fascinating.

Thank you all. Thank you very much.

I hope others will chime in. So far we have some choosers of #2.

Are there any choosers of number one and/or rebuttals to those who choose #2?

[miz3]

Rogertutt, I do have one question in regard to your universalism.

Why does the Bible in Revelation say that satan, death, and all who have done evil will be thrown into the Lake of Fire? Doesn't this text rebut your universalism that all is eventually redeemed and saved?

[dialoguewithus]

miz3 and rodgertutt, I'd like to jump in and quote this which I think explains it pretty well.

Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire taught in the scriptures?

The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death (Rev.20:14; 21:8). In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).

And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.

How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).

It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.

The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/QuestionsAndAnswers/Q&AIndex1.html#9a

It is also apparent from Col. 1:15-20 that the lake of fire is not the end of God's plan for those cast into the fire. See also Ro. 5:18, 19.

[rodgertutt]

Rogertutt, I do have one question in regard to your universalism.

Why does the Bible in Revelation say that satan, death, and all who have done evil will be thrown into the Lake of Fire? Doesn't this text rebut your universalism that all is eventually redeemed and saved?

Why I believe that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.

AIÓN – AIÓNIOS

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

[dialoguewithus]

1 Cor. 15: 17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith - you are still in your sins! 18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished.

If Christ were not raised from death, then all those who die perish. We might say they are "annihilated", but we could by no means say that they were not dead, or that death had been abolished.

In like manner, those who experience the second death, will be DEAD, until they are resurrected and vivified by the Giver of Life. It is therefore impossible for death to be abolished until the second death gives up its victims.

Romans 5:18

Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.

What was the condemnation? Sin and mortality.

What is the one just award for life's justifying? Righteousness and immortality.

How are these "awards" given?

From Adam we inherit sin and death; the application is universal.

"THUS ALSO", from the Second Adam we inherit righteouness and immortality; the application is universal.

This is so because, as Paul explains in verse 15: "But not as the offense, thus also the grace. For if, by the offense of the one, the many died, much rather the grace of God and the gratuity in grace, which is of the One Man, Jesus Christ, to the many superabounds."

If the effects of the "one offense for all mankind for condemnation" were greater than the effects of the "one just award for all mankind for life's justifying", then grace would not superabound; it would be an insufficient remedy for the illness. God would have started a plan of salvation without being able to bring it to completion. Glory be to God- He never fails! 1 Cor. 13.

Human choices are involved in both the condemnation and the justification of mankind, but the BASIS of both is God's choice.

[miz3]

Thank you.

[Dr. Rich]

Miz3, good question here and some interesting responses also. Not that I agree with any of it, but there are many who do feel this way because of the words of others such as the author of Romans. Take the words of Jesus and the OT and you would never have this problem as it is very clear that humans have been given a will to choose to obey or not to obey.

[miz3]

Miz3, good question here and some interesting responses also. Not that I agree with any of it, but there are many who do feel this way because of the words of others such as the author of Romans. Take the words of Jesus and the OT and you would never have this problem as it is very clear that humans have been given a will to choose to obey or not to obey.

Does this mean that you are in favor of #1 question which says:

"Are humans what they are because of the "choices" they have made?"

This position is the position that those who believe humans have a "free will", or "are free moral agents", or "free choice", etc.

Could you give us your supporting data for taking this position.

[rodgertutt]

Miz3, good question here and some interesting responses also. Not that I agree with any of it, but there are many who do feel this way because of the words of others such as the author of Romans. Take the words of Jesus and the OT and you would never have this problem as it is very clear that humans have been given a will to choose to obey or not to obey.

Of course we have a will to choose to obey or not to obey.

That is not the issue.

Since the choice we made after due deliberation, or instantly, was the choice that we preferred the MOST at that particular point in time, it was not even popssible that we could have made any other choice. We chose what our combined reasonings and feelings persuaded us was the choice that we preferred the MOST. No other choice was even possible.

Here's the way that James Coram puts it.

"In any certain moment, either we have a given preference (and consequently effect a corresponding choice and action) or we do not. We cannot have a new preference while our old preference still exists. Nor can we make a new choice while we still have an old preference. For the act of choosing is merely the exercise of existing preference.

Albert Einstein put it this way “I do not at all believe in human freedom in the [popular] philosophical sense. Everybody acts not only from external compulsion but also in accordance with inner necessity. A man’s actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that he cannot be responsible [i.e., able to act otherwise], any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motion it undergoes."

My own quote.

"After due deliberation we always make the choice that our combined reasonings and feelings (i.e. preferences and desires) convince us is the choice that we prefer and desire the MOST.

The fact that we choose it demonstrates that we prefer and desire it the MOST, or we would have made some other choice instead."

[Dr. Rich]

rogertutt, It's my opinion that what you wrote is nonsense and impossible and just another way of saying that one will never take the blame for their own choices they make, good or bad. The writers of those who feel your way always want to put the blame on our Creator for making us this way--and this is just another trick Satan uses to deceive us.

[rodgertutt]

rogertutt, It's my opinion that what you wrote is nonsense and impossible and just another way of saying that one will never take the blame for their own choices they make, good or bad. The writers of those who feel your way always want to put the blame on our Creator for making us this way--and this is just another trick Satan uses to deceive us.

"Blame" is not the right word to use.

One cannot be "blamed" for what they could not help but do.

Here is what I see justifies the fact that we are fated to always, without exception, choose in the direction of what we perceive to be the choice that we want to make the MOST.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

The idea that it wouldn't be "right" for God to hold us accountable if we cannot help but choose what we do is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose what our reasonings tell us is the choice that we prefer the MOST at any given point in time.

As a theistic determinist I believe that nothing happens by “chance” and that God intends to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone, than had it not occurred. That includes the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as kolasis aionion (age during corrective chastisement) that everyone who needs it will experience. Then, when the existence of evil and suffering has served God’s purpose, He will eradicate both of them from our existence.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL by A.P. Adams is good on this subject!

http://thegloryrd.com/apadams/evil.html

Here is a quote from the conclusion of Martin Luther's BONDAGE OF THE WILL that I believe.

There can be no "Free-will"—in man,—in angel,—or in any creature!

http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html

[Dr. Rich]

Welcome to "The Adjustment Bureau". Rev. 7:9-16 proves beyound any doubt that your belief is built on sandy soil. God's law (the common law) is all about making the right choice or not. On the otherhand, statute law, or legal legislative law is built upon the theory that everyone is stupid and can't make the right choice so they have to be told what choice to make.

God does NOT care for or want people who are stupid (chosen to be ignorant because they feel they have no other choice). (See Dan. 12:10)

Therefore, either take the words of Jesus as the rock for your foundation for your belief or take the words of others (sandy soil) because you FEEL good about it.

Universalism is just another tool of Satan even though you can find verses from the bible that tend to support it. Perhaps you should put the Bible itself on trial to see if what you believe is from God or from others who never knew God.

[rodgertutt]

Welcome to "The Adjustment Bureau". Rev. 7:9-16 proves beyound any doubt that your belief is built on sandy soil. God's law (the common law) is all about making the right choice or not. On the otherhand, statute law, or legal legislative law is built upon the theory that everyone is stupid and can't make the right choice so they have to be told what choice to make.

God does NOT care for or want people who are stupid (chosen to be ignorant because they feel they have no other choice). (See Dan. 12:10)

Therefore, either take the words of Jesus as the rock for your foundation for your belief or take the words of others (sandy soil) because you FEEL good about it.

Universalism is just another tool of Satan even though you can find verses from the bible that tend to support it. Perhaps you should put the Bible itself on trial to see if what you believe is from God or from others who never knew God.

It was not even possible for you to not post what you posted above.

After you have put forth all of the arguments that you can think of, it will still remain true that you will always choose in the direction of what you perceive to be the choice that you prefer the MOST.

As to universal salvation not being in the Bible, why not check this out?

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

[Dr. Rich]

Again my friend, your belief system and mine are all built upon things we learn. Learning from people who never knew God/Jesus verses those who were His disciples is a major difference. Better learn the foundation from those who will stand the test (John 14:26) than to learn opinions from people who fail this test. 2nd Peter was probably not written by the apostle named Peter as he was dead when this was written.

Rev. 2:18-27 mentions the deep understandings of Satan, which can and do lead people to false assumptions. Satan fully knew the real truth and had to create as many false 'flags' as possible to destroy the clear words of Jesus concerning these issues. Counterfiets are believed when the truth is unknown.

I believe that only a few will be saved and the majority will be destroyed forever--not kept alive. (narrow vs wide road)

[dialoguewithus]

“…they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4

Scripture: “And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” Luke 6:32-35.

Myth: “God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever.”

Scripture: “For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” Romans 8:20, 21.

Myth: “Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest.”

Scripture: “…Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him…” “Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.

Myth: “Seek God and you’ll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you’re lost, it will be your own fault.”

Scripture: “For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.” Romans 11:32

Myth: “It was Lucifer’s doing, and Adam’s. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins.”

Scripture: “and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.

Myth: “God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can’t do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they’re hopeless.”

[Gibs]

All can do and do, do according to their own wills. We each will be held responsible for what we do and have done, whether evil or whether righteousness in the Lord. We choose to be rebellious or obedient. Eamples of we have the power of our wills,

Ex 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

De 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

De 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

It's also true that God has two "wills". I can't remember what they're called, but these verses give some light on the matter.

Acts 2:23

Rev. 13:8

Ro. 8:20

Gen. 50:20

Ro. 5:20

For example, was it God's will for Christ to be murdered on a pole? Yes it was, although those who murdered Him sinned in so doing.

There is a law called "you reap what you sow". One could think of it this way: the lost reap the full harvest, while the saved receive more grace and less of the bitter harvest. But in reality, many things in this life are mysterious to us, and often the righteous suffer more than the wicked, simply from what are commonly termed "chance events".

[rodgertutt]

SCRIPTURE VERSUS MYTHS

“…they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." 2 Tim. 4:4

Scripture: “And if you are loving those loving you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are loving those loving them. And if you should be doing good to those doing good to you, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are doing the same. And if you should ever be lending to those from whom you are expecting to get back, what thanks [grace] is it to you? For sinners also are lending to sinners, that they may get back the equivalent. Moreover, be loving your enemies, and be doing good, and be lending, expecting nothing from them, and your wages will be vast in the heavens, and you will be sons of the Most High, for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” Luke 6:32-35.

Myth: “God expects something from us (to exercise our free will) before His grace will be of any benefit to us. God loves His enemies, and will give the most ungrateful and wicked among them the wages of sin (death) forever.”

Scripture: “For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” Romans 8:20, 21.

Myth: “Satan and Adam subjected the creation to vanity. The creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption by the Almighty, by granting incorruptibility to a few, and annihilating the rest.”

Scripture: “…Not one is seeking out God. All avoid Him…” “Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful." Romans 3:11, 12; 9:16.

Myth: “Seek God and you’ll be saved. Your salvation depends on how you exercise your free will. If you’re lost, it will be your own fault.”

Scripture: “For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.” Romans 11:32

Myth: “It was Lucifer’s doing, and Adam’s. God is merciful to all us humans because He gives us a chance to escape the consequences of their sins.”

Scripture: “and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles" Colossians 1:20, 21.

Myth: “God wishes He could reconcile all the estranged on earth and in the heavens, but He has to have cooperation from those on earth; He can’t do it alone. As for those estranged in the heavens, they’re hopeless.”

[rodgertutt]

It's also true that God has two "wills". I can't remember what they're called, but these verses give some light on the matter.

[dialoguewithus]

Decretive from "decree"? Preceptive would be from "precept".