It's the Hoodie's fault?

[bonnie]

Righto, you want to see the *facts*?

Here's one: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/29/where_are_zimmermans_injuries/

You've been taking Zimmerman's *claim* about his injuries as though it was *fact*.

Absolute gospel,Facts by Salon

[Bravus]

It's a video, Bonnie. Ignore where it's hosted, ignore all commentary around it, watch the *video*. That's all I was referring to as a 'fact'.

[bonnie]

SEARCH TIME.COM

Full ArchiveCoversVideos

TRENDING NOWTrayvon Martin VideoSpike Lee TweetTrayvon Martin CaseNRA HoodiesHarry's New PadCrimePolice Reveal George Zimmerman’s Side of the Trayvon Martin Shooting

The neighborhood watch volunteer, who is now widely reviled, says he was attacked by the teenager and was injured in the confrontation with him.

By Madison Gray | @madisonjgray | March 26, 2012 | 268inShare.11

AP / Orange County Jail via Miami Herald

George Zimmerman Police have released accounts of the confrontation between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman on the night the unarmed 17-year-old was shot to death. The details differ profoundly from those put forth by his family’s attorney and place Martin as the aggressor rather than Zimmerman, who has claimed self-defense.

The Orlando Sentinel reported Monday that the story given by Zimmerman to Sanford, Fla., police was that Martin struck him, knocking him to the ground, then slammed his head into the sidewalk repeatedly. Police also say witness accounts back up what Zimmerman told them, which contradict earlier stories of Martin being stalked, then killed by the 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer .

According to Zimmerman, he was on his way to the grocery store when he saw Martin walking through the gated community, The Retreat at Twin Lakes. He called police and reported that he saw a suspicious person, a black male, who was acting strangely and thought he might be on drugs. Recordings of the conversation between Zimmerman and the dispatcher verify this, although it had not been initially released.

Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow Martin on foot, though a dispatcher told him that was not necessary. After that, police say it is unclear what exactly happened, but Zimmerman said he no longer saw Martin and was returning back to the vehicle when the teen approached him and they exchanged words. Martin, he said, then struck him, knocked him down and began banging his head on the ground.

At some point, Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest at close range.

Zimmerman’s attorney, Craig Sooner, told ABC News that Zimmerman had a broken nose and an injury to the back of his head. Witnesses, according to the Sentinel, say they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, punching him and heard him crying for help. Others, who live near where the shooting took place and placed 911 calls, have said it was Martin who cried for help, and say Zimmerman was straddling him, hands pressed against his back.

(

Phone records obtained by Martin’s family lawyer Benjamin Crump suggest the teen was on his cell phone with his girlfriend when he told her he was being followed by Zimmerman. He told her he would walk faster, but not run. Then the phone went dead, according to Crump.

Police say when they arrived, they found Zimmerman with the injuries. He refused medical treatment, but sought it the next day.The case continues to bring a nationwide outcry, with many demanding that Zimmerman be arrested and insisting that Sanford police were negligent in their duties. Chief Bill Lee, who has temporarily stepped down from his position, has said his department did not have evidence that the shooting was not in self defense.

Read more: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/26/poli.../#ixzz1qXZGSoq3

[Bravus]

Those claims will, I hope, be tested in court. Until then, they should be treated as claims. That was my point, which I may have expressed clumsily: I didn't mean the video is incontrovertible truth, I meant it called those claims into question. Some here have been stating those claims as though they were unquestionable.

I'll return to waiting mode.

[bonnie]

Those claims will, I hope, be tested in court. Until then, they should be treated as claims. That was my point, which I may have expressed clumsily: I didn't mean the video is incontrovertible truth, I meant it called those claims into question. Some here have been stating those claims as though they were unquestionable. I'll return to waiting mode.

There are questions.Your post was not treating the "salon" article as claims. As for the video what is it you are expecting to see as proof positive. I got in a fight with my older brother and hit him in the nose with a boot. I broke his nose and it bled like crazy initially. Once the bleeding stopped and was washed away you would never have known in a video like this what had happened.

[bonnie]

This does not say "Let's wait for the facts to come out or have the facts tested in court"

Righto, you want to see the *facts*?This in response to Woody's requestSalon didn't show any facts except in your mind.

For me,I will wait to call everyone a liar,except those determined to make this a racial issue until and if there are facts that are known.

Will leave the racial hatred to those politicians that are making hay and political points out of a young man's death or those wanting to prove how non-racist they are at the expense of this tragic death of a young teen. REGARDLESS OF THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN.

[Bravus]

Yes. I have acknowledged that I did not express myself clearly, and clarified. I added evidence to the mix, did not think it was definitive.

[Woody]

How about listing what we can agree upon with this event?

I suspect we can agree that it is:

1.) A tragedy

2.) A shame

3.) Unfortunate

4.) A terrible loss

5.) Alarming

6.) Concerning

7.) All around loss for both of those concerned.

Okay - your turn. Do you think you could add some thoughts that would be agreed upon and that are non-inflammatory?

Well - I tried. People now want to look at a video. I give up. Agendas are the winner.

[Woody]

Quote:

Righto, you want to see the *facts*?

I've never been concerned about the facts.

My concern from the beginning was that people who thought they had the facts and thought they were presenting the facts --- in fact - did not know the facts. They were just pushing an agenda. And I see that little has changed.

[Bravus]

Hang on. You've been treating Zimmerman's story as gospel for pages and pages. You don't get to just say 'OK, now we just freeze the discussion as it is'! Evidence that challenges Zimmerman and his friends' account ought to get you back to the position you should have had all along: these are all allegations, still to be proven. I'm happy to do that on all issues: are you?

[lazarus]

I've never been concerned about the facts.

My concern from the beginning was that people who thought they had the facts and thought they were presenting the facts --- in fact - did not know the facts. They were just pushing an agenda. And I see that little has changed.

Of all the posters it seems you have been posting items that are most supportive of Mr Z's perceptive but then arguing that we should wait for the facts then now you're saying you are not concerned with the facts. Your argument is not logical. If the concern was as you say it was your posts would have obviously been different. You have been falling over yourself to put Mr Z in the best possible light.

[bonnie]

Of all the posters it seems you have been posting items that are most supportive of Mr Z's perceptive but then arguing that we should wait for the facts then now you're saying you are not concerned with the facts. Your argument is not logical. If the concern was as you say it was your posts would have obviously been different. You have been falling over yourself to put Mr Z in the best possible light.

By the 4-5th post this was turned into a racial incident. Without any facts many of you dertermined this had to be racial.

What is happening is crimonal and not on the part of Zimmerman at this point.

Not one of you can say what happened and give facts.Facts from many of you are that martic was black,therefore it had to be racial.

Whether it is Obama who has suddenly lost his ability to speak,mainstream media,Jackson and Sharpton,TV personalities,New Black Panthers,Bounty offered it is all about race. And none of you know.

Obama suddenly can't speak to the very obvious crime(felony) of soliciting someone to committ a felony,neither can Eric Holder.Wonder why we haven't heard from Obama that the thugs that were looting could be his son or daughter? Wonder how fast the claims of racism would have taken for these innocent looters had one been shot?

Jackson and Sharpton are silent of course on giving out the address of Zimmermans parents and innocent people being targeted.Those placing the bounty should have been arrested.Do you think if they were white and put a bounty on a black man Obama and Eric Holder could have found their tongues?

Maybe Rosie O'donnell should have her address blasted all over twitter.Or we should be threatening to go personally to her house.

Oh,wait a minute,this anti-gun liberal has guns protecting her and someone may just get hurt.

[lazarus]

By the 4-5th post this was turned into a racial incident. Without any facts many of you dertermined this had to be racial.

You need to go back and read the thread. Turned into a racial incident? It was already being reported that racial profiling was possibly involved. The opinions exchanged were a relection of the various elements of the case.

Most people agree that if the roles were reversed that there would have been an arrest. There is data that indicates that minority alleged perpetrators are given harsher treatment. That's a fact. Your perspective may be comforting but it's outside the realms of what is known to be true.

[bonnie]

You need to go back and read the thread. Turned into a racial incident? It was already being reported that racial profiling was possibly involved. The opinions exchanged were a relection of the various elements of the case.

Most people agree that if the roles were reversed that there would have been an arrest. There is data that indicates that minority alleged perpetrators are given harsher treatment. That's a fact. Your perspective may be comforting but it's outside the realms of what is known to be true.

If you believe if the situation were reversed Martin would have been arrested,Do you also believe that Obama,Eric Holder and all the "experts" would have been silent on a bounty being offered,white looters,Rosie ODonnell giving out the correct address and threatening to go personally?

Zimmerman is a minority? How is he being treated? Half white,half hispanic. Obama is half white,half black. What is the difference? Zimmerman is still a minority.

Who made the automatic assumption this must have been race based? If it is a black on white crime is it always race based? Do you automatically condemn that as racist profiling?

Do you have any facts to back up that Zimmerman is a racist?

[bonnie]

Quote:

Kountzer

Loc: Houston, Texas

If the roles were reversed, & Geo. Zimmerman was walking down the street, carrying a package of skittles, & wearing a hoodie, or whatever. And Trayvon Martin drove up carrying a 9mm pistol, gives chase and shoots and kills George.

In this reverse scenario Trayvon Martin would of been arrested hour one, day one. He would be sitting in a county jail right now, awaiting trail and sentencing and a quick trip to death row.

This is where we go immediately to Martin being innocent and it is a racial incident.

Martin is black,therefor the only reasonable conclusion is being black he was innocent,did not contribute to the situation in any way by his actions,was hunted down like a dog(Maxine Waters) and murdered.

Zimmerman,half white,half hispanic(minority) must be a racist?

[lazarus]

If you believe if the situation were reversed Martin would have been arrested,Do you also believe that Obama,Eric Holder and all the "experts" would have been silent on a bounty being offered,white looters,Rosie ODonnell giving out the correct address and threatening to go personally?

Not sure what your question is.

Quote:

Zimmerman is a minority? How is he being treated? Half white,half hispanic. Obama is half white,half black. What is the difference? Zimmerman is still a minority.

He was treated well by the police. Not formally arrested. No charged. The contention is that if he were black he would have not been so well treated.

Quote:

Who made the automatic assumption this must have been race based?

Nobody. It was not automatic. It was based on the circumstances. Race is considered to be a factor not the basis of the incident.

[lazarus]

Martin is black,therefor the only reasonable conclusion is being black he was innocent,did not contribute to the situation in any way by his actions,was hunted down like a dog(Maxine Waters) and murdered.

No. The circumstances of his killing were the basis of the presumption of innocence.

[bonnie]

No. The circumstances of his killing were the basis of the presumption of innocence.

Circumstances

So that's where I am now. I just can't take this anymore; every time I turn on the TV or open up a news site, I'm inundated with articles that might as well read, "whitey is the root of all evil, blacks are innocent angels." Liberals are literally mentally ill and this latest inanity showcases their psychosis. But wait, OneSTDV, what about the grainy video showing Zimmerman with no cuts or bruises? Can someone explain to me why liberals are so averse to reality?

1) Zimmerman's blood, and possibly Trayvon's as well, was cleaned up at the scene.

2) Zimmerman clearly changed his clothes, as he was wearing a red sweater during the altercation.

3) You can not see a broken nose (which often does not require any medical attention) in a grainy video.

4) You can not see bruises in a grainy video.

5) The video clearly shows the police officer looking at the back of Zimmerman's head, as if something is wrong there.

6) The video clearly shows some type of, likely cleaned, injury to the back of Zimmerman's head.

7) Banging someone's head against concrete does not necessarily leave a gaping hole. Nor does a punch. Think about all the football players who get concussions with no visible signs of injury. (Though Zimmerman did have visible signs of injury, including his T-shirt being wet from being held down on his back, but these were cleaned up prior to the booking video.)

But wait, what about the new witnesses, like the 13 year-old walking his dog, who all of a sudden have either come forward or changed their testimony? A few days after the incident (not a murder!), before this became a national controversy, Trayvon's own father admitted that the voice yelling for help was NOT his son's. All eyewitnesses who gave statements immediately after the incident said that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, not the other way around. The police who arrived at the "crime" scene, who would have witnessed the scene including bruising, cuts, etc... without any tampering, all concluded that Zimmerman's self-defense claim made sense. I'll take the initial statements over these obviously concocted ones.

------------------------------------------------

To anyone with a brain, i.e. not a liberal, it's plain obvious what happened. Mr. "Skittles" (where's the surveillance video?) didn't like being "dissed" by Zimmerman and given his ostensibly burgeoning propensity towards aggression, Mr. "Skittles" attacked Zimmerman with a sucker punch. Straddled by a much taller and fit individual and desparately yelling for help, Trayvon was about to commit his first murder when he noticed Zimmerman's gun. Zimmerman had a choice: save his own life or cut short Trayvon's fledging career in theoretical astrophysics.

[lazarus]

So that's where I am now. I just can't take this anymore; every time I turn on the TV or open up a news site, I'm inundated with articles that might as well read, "whitey is the root of all evil, blacks are innocent angels." Liberals are literally mentally ill and this latest inanity showcases their psychosis.

Bonnie, this is where you have always been. I've seen your posts on race before.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

So that's where I am now. I just can't take this anymore; every time I turn on the TV or open up a news site, I'm inundated with articles that might as well read, "whitey is the root of all evil, blacks are innocent angels." Liberals are literally mentally ill and this latest inanity showcases their psychosis.

Bonnie, this is where you have always been. I've seen your posts on race before.

[bonnie]

What I find most disturnbing about this whole thing is the automatic leap to it must be a "racial crime".No questions asked.

More even than that is the lack of response by any that are convinced this is racial to a Predicent of the US and Eric Holder's total lack of response to a bounty(felony) being offered by a black group because it is a black group.

The posting of addresses and the very real potential for harm/fatalities goes unaddressed. Terrorizing a elderly couple and forcing them to move.

The totally inappropriate remarks by blacks on the floor of congress,once again only because the victim is black.Silence by all on the left of the senseless looting,supposedly because of the death of Martin.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I've never been concerned about the facts.

My concern from the beginning was that people who thought they had the facts and thought they were presenting the facts --- in fact - did not know the facts. They were just pushing an agenda. And I see that little has changed.

Of all the posters it seems you have been posting items that are most supportive of Mr Z's perceptive but then arguing that we should wait for the facts then now you're saying you are not concerned with the facts. Your argument is not logical. If the concern was as you say it was your posts would have obviously been different. You have been falling over yourself to put Mr Z in the best possible light.

Yes. I've been extremely vocal with support for Mr. Zimmerman. Why? Because there's a lynch mob on this forum and in the public in general. Me? A lonely voice when considering the loud call against Zimmerman. But do I know the "facts" ? No. But then neither do those who are screaming "Racism".

My purpose has never been to proclaim facts - no matter how loud I might have been. And I will continue to be loud in trying to proclaim that there is always another side.

This "video" does little for the "racism" side of things. I think Bonnie has clearly explained that.

I continue to hear such hate. And it comes mostly from ill informed blacks. These kinds of peoples come out of the woodwork it seems as soon as there is an opportunity to proclaim that someone is a racist.

[SivartM]

And I have seen your leaps to judgements and your assumptions are where you have always been. I notice a time line of events mean nothing,which can be found on various places all reading pretty much the same. For your information the following is part of the article CC&P Not my words, Your A-S-S-U-M-P-T-I-O-N-S on how I feel about race are showing.

Well, I guess next time you don't want someone to make "assumptions" about how you feel about race, you should make it clear what was written by someone else and reference the material.

On another note, in the "totally, definitely not racist" category, a paragon of virtue has hacked into Martin's email and social networking accounts, revealing that Martin apparently used some drugs and was definitely a drug dealer (a black person with money? Drug dealer!). Repeat, this has absolutely nothing to do with race. Other shocking information uncovered shows that Martin was seriously interested in college. The hacker changed Martin's passwords to racial slurs, but remember, racism does not exist anymore.

[lazarus]

Yes. I've been extremely vocal with support for Mr. Zimmerman. Why?

Why? amongst other things you are ridiculous.

[Woody]

Bonnie makes such excellent points.

If one is intellectually fair - you have to bring out stats that are fair.

What are the stats in which a Hispanic person has an altercation with a black person? Is racism involved?

What about Blacks on Hispanics? Is racism involved.

And is it even possible to have racism involved when a black person attacks a white person?

Finally - no matter what the "stats" say - WAS racism involved when a Hispanic was attacked by a black person and had to defend himself?

No folks - we just don't know enough facts to say that Zimmerman is a racist.