Nic Samojluk Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 After years of blogging with Adventists on this forum about abortion, I have discovered that no matter what argument I use in defense of the unborn’s right to life, those who oppose my views end with the following entrenched position: “Abortion is wrong, but women should have the right to choose!” So let me see if we can apply the same policy to other areas of our moral behavior: A. Rape is wrong, but men should have the right to choose! B. Sexual abuse of children is wrong but men should have the right to choose! C. Burglary is wrong, but men should have the right to choose! D. Terrorism is wrong, but men should have the right to choose! E. Slavery is wrong, but men should have the right to choose! F. Homicide is wrong, but men should have the right to choose! G. Genocide is wrong, but men should have the right to choose! Here is my question: If you agree that all the above described moral actions which cause harm to other human beings are wrong and must we punished, why do we insist that in the case of abortion, women should have the right to kill their own children with impunity? Why is this a sacred cow for abortionists? Why does society grant abortionists the privilege to profit from the greatest harm imaginable: dismemberment and poisoning of innocent victims without due process, without anesthesia, and without the right to appeal which even the worst criminals are entitled to? 1. Why is it wrong to rape, but right to kill without being punished? 2. Why is it wrong to sexually abuse little children, but right to execute the unborn without any legal consequence? 3. Why is it wrong to steal and burglarize, but right to ask for the death of innocent unborn children with any legal reperxussion? 4. I hope you get the idea! And why did we allow our church to leaders to compromise with this great moral evil by permitting our own hospitals to offer elective abortions on demand which represents a direct violation of our own “Guidelines on Abortion” and even what the Lord wrote on tablets of stone with his own finger? Should not our leaders apologize for this deviation from moral duty? Should not we pray, fast, and seek God’s forgiveness for this great sin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 You theory is full of holes. No one is in debate that any of the things you listed are wrong and not to be done. Abortion while I feel is wrong - is in debate. When more people feel it is okay than those who feel it is wrong - I don't feel comfortable having the minority imposing it's will on the majority. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted March 31, 2012 Administrators Share Posted March 31, 2012 Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yes Naomi - It would be like SDAs proposing legislation to impose the Sabbath on all citizens of our country. I think we as SDAs are opposed to that kinda stuff. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Quote: When more people feel it is okay than those who feel it is wrong - I don't feel comfortable having the minority imposing it's will on the majority. I guess you would have gone right along with crucifying Jesus then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I guess you would have gone right along with crucifying Jesus then. Was not much of his purpose here on earth to be crucified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yes Richard. Anyone who studied scriptures knew that being crucified was His purpose. So, I would have been in favor of it. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I don't like abortion, but really, aren't they better off not having to live in a place where they aren't wanted or can't be supported? If anti-choice groups succeed in making abortion illegal, I think their registries should be automatically turned into adoption waiting lists to accommodate all the new children. "Right to life" sounds nice until you consider that many aren't going to have especially good lives, and so you basically want to force people to suffer. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I don't like abortion, but really, aren't they better off not having to live in a place where they aren't wanted or can't be supported? If anti-choice groups succeed in making abortion illegal, I think their registries should be automatically turned into adoption waiting lists to accommodate all the new children. "Right to life" sounds nice until you consider that many aren't going to have especially good lives, and so you basically want to force people to suffer. Excellent comments SivartM Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I don't like abortion, but really, aren't they better off not having to live in a place where they aren't wanted or can't be supported? If anti-choice groups succeed in making abortion illegal, I think their registries should be automatically turned into adoption waiting lists to accommodate all the new children. This just goes to show how little you really know about the issue,SM. Have you studied the waiting list of "anti-choice" supporters who would love to adopt one of these "unwanted" (by their mothers,or...)?Progressive talking points have probably neglected to mention the scores of "anti-choice' ministries that are willing to adopt and care for even the anecephalic newborns. Part and parcel of the pro-choice mindset is the choice to support the "choice" of the mother only if she decides not to keep her baby.Otherwise she's on her own.Prolifers operate thousands of CPC's across this nation at their own costs (unlike Planned Parenthood)with their own donated time and finances. Many of these volunteers HAVE EXPERIENCED the pain and terror of an unwanted pregnancy. Many have had abortions.They are the backbone of the pro-life movement. Why are pro-choicers off the hook for not helping the newborn if her mother chooses not to kill it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted March 31, 2012 Administrators Share Posted March 31, 2012 I don't like abortion, but really, aren't they better off not having to live in a place where they aren't wanted or can't be supported? If anti-choice groups succeed in making abortion illegal, I think their registries should be automatically turned into adoption waiting lists to accommodate all the new children. "Right to life" sounds nice until you consider that many aren't going to have especially good lives, and so you basically want to force people to suffer. This is not a comment on abortion, but SilvartM has made a good point. Perhaps if you have never personally experienced the pain of an abused child (and there are many, many ways to abuse) you will never know how cruel and heartless things that happen every hour of every day. I will be much more excited about calling out the church on the abortion issue when I see our church and society in general use as much emotion and resources to save at least some of these hungry, homeless, suffering babies, children and teenagers. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 "Right to life" sounds nice until you consider that many aren't going to have especially good lives, and so you basically want to force people to suffer.Of the 1.5 million abortions done in the US every year, what % of them do you think are done because their mothers don't want their babies to grow up to suffer? Would you consider the abortion of those children after a reasonable trial life run after birth just to make sure they really didn't want to continue to live? Do you have any problem with a mother putting her 2 day old baby in the dumpster in order to avoid it's possible future unhappiness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 In issues like this - I always have to ask "What would Jesus do"? And as previously discussed - Jesus is pro-choice. End of discussion. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 In issues like this - I always have to ask "What would Jesus do"? And as previously discussed - Jesus is pro-choice. End of discussion.Not so quick,Woody. You've only given Jesus His label without discussing what it entails in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 This is not a comment on abortion, but SilvartM has made a good point. Perhaps if you have never personally experienced the pain of an abused child (and there are many, many ways to abuse) you will never know how cruel and heartless things that happen every hour of every day. I will be much more excited about calling out the church on the abortion issue when I see our church and society in general use as much emotion and resources to save at least some of these hungry, homeless, suffering babies, children and teenagers. I like that post so much that when I ran out of thumbs to point up I raised my big toes as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I will be much more excited about calling out the church on the abortion issue when I see our church and society in general use as much emotion and resources to save at least some of these hungry, homeless, suffering babies, children and teenagers. Doesn't the church already spend lots of time and effort in attempting to minister to these groups already (and for decades)? Can you name one church sponsored ministry for the unborn or the newborn's mother who has just chosen to not abort her baby?....................I didn't think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: Woody In issues like this - I always have to ask "What would Jesus do"? And as previously discussed - Jesus is pro-choice. End of discussion. Not so quick,Woody. You've only given Jesus His label without discussing what it entails in action. Very simply - it means that Jesus gives us choice. He does not force anyone. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: SivartM "Right to life" sounds nice until you consider that many aren't going to have especially good lives, and so you basically want to force people to suffer. Of the 1.5 million abortions done in the US every year, what % of them do you think are done because their mothers don't want their babies to grow up to suffer? Would you consider the abortion of those children after a reasonable trial life run after birth just to make sure they really didn't want to continue to live? Do you have any problem with a mother putting her 2 day old baby in the dumpster in order to avoid it's possible future unhappiness? Does the mother's intention matter? If she's having an abortion because she's selfish (which seems to be a common stereotype), then isn't that all the better for the child to not have to grow up knowing that mommy was forced to give birth to them? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 31, 2012 Members Share Posted March 31, 2012 Doesn't the church already spend lots of time and effort in attempting to minister to these groups already (and for decades)? Can you name one church sponsored ministry for the unborn or the newborn's mother who has just chosen to not abort her baby?....................I didn't think so. So why not start one? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: doug yowell Doesn't the church already spend lots of time and effort in attempting to minister to these groups already (and for decades)? Can you name one church sponsored ministry for the unborn or the newborn's mother who has just chosen to not abort her baby?....................I didn't think so. So why not start one? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Don't churches have support groups for parents? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted March 31, 2012 Administrators Share Posted March 31, 2012 Originally Posted By: Naomi I will be much more excited about calling out the church on the abortion issue when I see our church and society in general use as much emotion and resources to save at least some of these hungry, homeless, suffering babies, children and teenagers. Doesn't the church already spend lots of time and effort in attempting to minister to these groups already (and for decades)? Can you name one church sponsored ministry for the unborn or the newborn's mother who has just chosen to not abort her baby?....................I didn't think so. http://www.christianfamilyadoptions.org/about-christian-family-adoptions.php Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted March 31, 2012 Members Share Posted March 31, 2012 Quote: Doesn't the church already spend lots of time and effort in attempting to minister to these groups already (and for decades)? Can you name one church sponsored ministry for the unborn or the newborn's mother who has just chosen to not abort her baby?....................I didn't think so. http://www.christianfamilyadoptions.org/about-christian-family-adoptions.php Ooppps I stand corrected! I guess Doug will have to start a second ministry. Excellent post Tom. I guess there still are those that just don't waste there time condemning but actually doing something. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 For full disclosure - I adopted my son through an Adventist adoption service. Okay - I just checked the link. And that was the service that we used. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted March 31, 2012 Administrators Share Posted March 31, 2012 In just the church where I am a member, at least a dozen orphans have been adopted by members. Our daughter was one of them. Even as we speak, she is spending spring break with the youth mission group in the Dominican Republic. Actions speak louder than words. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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