$12 Billion of church funds are missing ----- What are U going to DO?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

......salvation by obedience to rules. Didn't work then, doesn't today.

If salvation is by obedience to rules, then no need for Christs death. The Jews perfected obedience to rules. Read the story in the NT again.

[miz3]

We do not have a tithing system in the SDA Church .org that is like the tithing system of the Old Testament.

The SDA Church .org and the Old Testament systems are two different systems. They are almost nothing alike.

[miz3]

God does not need our Tithe.

The Tithing Principle as found in the Bible was not for God's benefit. It was for the Priest's and the Priest's family's benefit.

God does not need a scintilla of our money anywhere on the face of the earth. Thus, God is not missing any $12 Billion.

Since the SDA Church .org is not God then those "unpaid" monies are not missing.

If the SDA Church .org wants ALL OF ITS MEMBERS to pay a faithful tithe then it should "enforce" this mandate rather than complain that it does not have enough money.

The FACT that the SDA Church does not enforce this 'principle' demonstrates that it is not a high priority item in both the "financial area" and the "spiritual area"

[Woody]

God does not need our Tithe.

The Tithing Principle as found in the Bible was not for God's benefit. It was for the Priest's and the Priest's family's benefit.

God does not need a scintilla of our money anywhere on the face of the earth. Thus, God is not missing any $12 Billion.

Since the SDA Church .org is not God then those "unpaid" monies are not missing.

If the SDA Church .org wants ALL OF ITS MEMBERS to pay a faithful tithe then it should "enforce" this mandate rather than complain that it does not have enough money.

The FACT that the SDA Church does not enforce this 'principle' demonstrates that it is not a high priority item in both the "financial area" and the "spiritual area"

Not paying tithe is technically one of the reasons that a member can be disfellowshipped. Yes, you are correct - that it is usually not enforced.

Tithe paying is a symbol just as much as baptism is - it displays to the Universe - where your alligence aligns.

It reminds me that God owns everything.

It is an opportunity for me - to pay honor to God by returning a portion of what He gives to me - back to Him.

It is a blessing and an opportunity for me to display to God - the love I have for Him - an opportunity for me to display what is in my Heart.

You are right. God does not need our money. But we need to give it to Him.

[monty]

I have sometimes wondered why the New Testament is relatively quiet on the subject of titheing. It is not as concretely spelled out as in the Old Testament? It certainly isn't spoken about as loudly as those who currently make their living from it speak out. I believe that it is certainly naive to think it would hasten Jesus return or that some of it would be returned to the local level. Look at the history of how it has been used the last 75 years and one sees no reason that the future use would be any different. Not much of an incentive to those not paying to begin. By the way I have payed the 10% as an hedge against selfishness not that it will be used as I have been led to believe. Long time experiance has taught me this.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

By the way I have payed the 10% as an hedge against selfishness........

That is what I have come to believe tithing is all about, for this day and time other than paying for the ministers, etc. In the OT it was needed for support of a group also but not the vast usage it has come to be used for today. I do not know the answer to the whole issue but for me and my house it is about remembering it all belongs to God and it is a small thing to control our natural selfishness.

[Gerr]

I have sometimes wondered why the New Testament is relatively quiet on the subject of titheing. It is not as concretely spelled out as in the Old Testament?

If it has been clearly spelled out in the OT, why the need to spell it out again in the NT? Many of our Protestant brethren used that same argument to ignore the Sabbath because it is not clearly reiterated in the NT.

By the way I have payed the 10% as an hedge against selfishness not that it will be used as I have been led to believe. Long time experiance has taught me this.

That is certainly another good reason to return the tithe. Just as 1/7th of our time is claimed by God as an acknowledgment that all our time really belongs to Him, so the tithe is also an acknowledgment that all that we have really belongs to Him.

[Gordon1]

Is Our World Church Missing $12 Billion in Tithe?

The same guilt trip has often been voiced from the pulpit. How sad and ineffective, even abusive, to use the word of the day.

There is plenty of abuse in the SDA Church and money is certainly a sore point. If the people were inspired to live by faith, the coffers would be full, but this requires preachers who are also living by faith. Can't share faith if you don't have it.

Rather than chastise the laity for their "$12B shortfall", how much better to offer a thorough accounting of the $2 Billion?

The info is already there - all conferences are audited regularly. Show to the last dollar where both the tithe AND the offerings are making their mark. Educate the people with noble accounting principles - there is no shame here = all the funds belong to our Father in heaven. Let the dealings of God's people be as clear & transparent as the noon-day sun. God will be honored and his work will prosper.

[monty]

This is what I find egregious. It is the ruling religous elite demanding more and more. All the while having a thinly veiled contempt of those providing their income. At least that is what I see in the area I live in. I imagine it could be different in other areas. I remember in college going through desperate times working any job I could obtain... meat packing plant, flashlight factory, construction ect. then observing a local Conference employee son staying in the dorm "just for fun". Weekend ski trips and all. He later went on to become a union Conf. president. He was great at calling for "sacrifical giving", and hammering on independent ministries. All the while you sit there listening, struggling to find this biblical. I see a growing gap between this ruling elite and many struggling with unemployment, providing for their famlies, educating their children and all the needs a family has. As they collectively collect the their wealth from the labor of others I don't have much hope it will change. How does an individual family compare to one who can compound their income from many?

[monty]

I think you are overlooking something here. The Sabbath is clearly one of the ten commandments, titheing is not. It is based on broad stewardship principles. It relects ones view of God's claim on your life and our indebtedness to Him as well as a God worthy to be praised in this Great Controversy struggle. To pick it out and place it along one of the commandendments written by the finger of God is stretching a bit.

[monty]

Gordon you have an excellent point. Especially in this day of diminished trust there is a great need for transparency, accountability. The fact that Conferences have to be cajoled, begged, suggested, you name it, proves my point. They are the ruling religous elite. They have access to your level of income. Try asking one of them for a copy of their federal tax return and see what kind of responce you get. It is hard to find a true Biblical model for how the system is working today.

[Woody]

Quote:

The same guilt trip has often been voiced from the pulpit. How sad and ineffective, even abusive, to use the word of the day.

Okay. While I don't agree with you ... this is cute. I do agree that the word is overused to the point of just meaning "anything that you disagree with". lol

[Gordon1]

Right Monty. One should expect a fervent zeal by pastors & administrators to highlight their exemplary stewardship skills. We are told the tithe is holy, I believe it. So, encourage the laity to further benevolence and sacrifice by showing the fruits of their systematic tithe return.

What could be simpler or more effective to elicit a response?

It would take less than one week for each conference to compile, print and distribute the accounting statements to each interested member. Or just make an iPhone app to a conference database, even a monthly email.

Tithe is intended to support Bible instructors, men or women. Nothing is more bedrock than teaching the Word.

So what does your local pastor cost the conference, including benefits?

[Woody]

Right Monty. One should expect a fervent zeal by pastors & administrators to highlight their exemplary stewardship skills. We are told the tithe is holy, I believe it. So, encourage the laity to further benevolence and sacrifice by showing the fruits of their systematic tithe return.

What could be simpler or more effective to elicit a response?

It would take less than one week for each conference to compile, print and distribute the accounting statements to each interested member. Or just make an iPhone app to a conference database, even a monthly email.

Tithe is intended to support Bible instructors, men or women. Nothing is more bedrock than teaching the Word.

So what does your local pastor cost the conference, including benefits?

If you knew how little your pastor is paid - you would be handing out contributions to them personally instead of sending it to the church. This would not be a good thing. Disclosing tithe use is totally un-necessary. I would suggest that you personally lead the way and distribute your earnings statements and explain to us why you don't give more to the church.

[Gordon1]

If you knew how little your pastor is paid - you would be handing out contributions to them personally instead of sending it to the church.

[Gordon1]

I would suggest that you personally lead the way and distribute your earnings statements and explain to us why you don't give more to the church.

Yes Woody, more words to live by. Good principles.

If I claimed a calling and received one tenth of your income (your tithe) I would certainly feel obligated to send you a statement of stewardship, at least for your own contribution.

Your good thoughts just need some fine tuning for time & place.

More suggestions? When the pastors lead by example, what a change we will see.

[monty]

Can you imagine the walls that would be broken down if there was this kind of transparency going both ways. Perhaps then we could with zeal get on to finish giving the gospel, the laity seeing they are really part of it. I don't have much hope for this. It would mean the end of elite, top down organization. There is not going to be this kind of sharing of power.

[Woody]

Quote:

There is not going to be this kind of sharing of power.

It's my prayer that there isn't.

What nonsense.

[monty]

Woody....Was your daddy a denominational employee or are you or have been?

[Gordon1]

Monty & Woody,

Good input. In the original church model (our pattern) the believers divided their goods equally among each other so that none had lack. (Acts 2:44,45) Lands & houses were sold, the money divided. (Acts 4:34) Those who pretended but held something back for themselves were killed on the spot, shewing God's great displeasure with non-transparency. (Acts 5)

Let's admit it may seem like a tall order, but it renders the $12 Billion claim just a tad whiny, even insincere.

Has there been any effort to implement the Bible model?

[Naomi]

Now THAT would make for interesting debates :)

[Gordon1]

Monty, there's no nonsense to your suggestion. It's how Christians are meant to live.

Christ banished the thought of supremacy amongst the flock when he declared:

• "But be not ye called Rabbi (my master): for one is your Master, even Christ;

and all ye are brethren."

(Matthew 23:8)

[monty]

Thanks Gordon....It is sad to me to see the opposite spirit exhibited as your biblical quote. I have been naive in the past thinking it was going to be different, getting drawn in, then experiancing a painful realization. I am becoming more cynical regarding the SDA church. In my book when an individual calls someones post nonsense it is akin to calling them stupid. I never have claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed, but then I did not get through graduate school by being a dummy either!

[Gordon1]

One Master.

All we are brethren.

No abuse of power or privilege.

[Gordon1]

Yes Naomi, the earth will tremble. Even the rocks may call out.