what is breaking the Sabbath to you?

[Clio]

Abba was in the marriage and family and spiritual growth business long before religion and churches came along. Since I don't subscribe to the belief that my spiritual growth has to happen inside a church...

Breaking the Sabbath for me would constitute anything that would take my mind off spiritual growth, family, and marriage.

We do lots of things to foster that. Today we finished our screen porch... took about an hour, we all helped, and as we did we talked about Abba, Jesus, the meaning behind the concept of being joint heirs with Jesus and a Child in the House of the King.

While some might consider finishing our screened porch work, it was mostly moving plants, furniture, removing other items and then enjoying it. It was done leisurely, at a slow pace with no rush, because we weren't working, we were gifting ourselves, as a family, with productive family time, and spiritual growth, doing something we have zero time for during the hecticness of our week.

Other times we have baked and just left the mess until after sundown... againg focusing our conversation, songs, and praise on Jesus. Some weeks we choose to have a family study, with each person using a different version, pulling out Flavius Josephus, the Book of Enoch, other letters from the early church in the first century, books on life in palestine, etc. To really understand the communities and culture to which the writers of the Bible were addressing their written words.

We are Children in the King's House, and He fellowships with us.

Clio

[K]

Sounds like an excellent reason to eat out. No cooking or cleaning up just rest. Oh how I do enjoy it when friends take me to eat out on Sabbath. I never go any other time because it is expensive and I hate to go by myself.

I think we should just leave the potluck clean up until some other day too according to what you quote in EGW. (Hopefully a day that I am not there since I alway end up cleaning up that mess) Lord knows how much work that it is.

K

[Gerr]

Let's look at some principles.

A. The commandment says, "Remember" to keep it holy [qadash - set apart as sacred, keep sacred, honor as sacred].Six days you shall labor [abad - do work, serve] and do [asah - do, perform] all your work [malakah - occupation, business]. The LORD blessed [barak - praise, bless, salute] and hallowed [qadash] it.

Principle #1. God set it aside solely for holy, sacred use, not secular. Study your Bible & find out what is holy/sacred and what is secular pursuits. Here are some examples that I am certain will meet muster as Sab activities:

"To preach the gospel to the poor;

To heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives

And recovery of sight to the blind,

To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD." Lk 4:18

Principle #2. Refrain from your usual work/business.

Exceptions: (a) Jesus pointed out that the priests did their usual work in the Temple on Sab & were not guilty, Mt 12:5. But their work fulfills Principle #1.

( "Ox-in-the-ditch" principle, Lk 13:15. Emergent/urgent suffering/problem can/should be relieved even on Sab. E.g. heart attack, broken water line that's flooding the house, or raw sewage backing up your toilet.

© "Watering-the-ox" principle, last part of the verse in Lk 13:15. It is not enough that one takes out on the Sabbath an ox that has fallen into a ditch; one must also tend to its needs, i.e. they also need food & water. If God is concerned with the needs of animals, I believe more so with human beings. In a modern society, electricity, water, hospitals, and some other basic services are needed. But God has also designated at day to prepare for the needs of His people & their animals on Sabbath to minimize work on Sabbath.

Principle #3. It is lawful to do good on Sabbath, Mk 3:4, but must be within the context of principle #1 & #2.

Principle #4. Sabbath is a memorial of the Creative power of God, not only during creation week, but also when He creates a new heart in a believing sinner. So Sabbath is a celebration of God's creative power. It is a celebration of the fact that God ALONE has the power turn a profane person into a sanctified person. Therefore the Sabbath is a celebration of the sinner resting in the power of God to save him/her.

Until we are thoroughly converted & understand what God had intended the Sabbath for, the joy & blessings & the holy/sacred pursuits He has intended for the Sabbath, will remain foreign to us & continue to focus on the don'ts. Perhaps if we experience the joy of sharing Christ, or the joy of seeing a soul turn to Christ, the Sabbath would become such an exciting time for sharing that His kingdom would quickly come.

Just a few thoughts.

Gerry

[Nicodema]

I would not eat out on Sabbath because it constitutes:

(a) having someone else work FOR me (manservant, maidservant, etc.)

( transacting business and thus supporting someone else doing business on Sabbath.

Does that make me legalistic?

I don't judge anyone else for eating out on Sabbath; I just am not comfortable with the idea of doing it myself. My mate (a non-believer) and I have sometimes ordered from "Waiter on the Way" (a local food delivery service that brings restaurant meals to your home) before sunset Saturday. I always felt "wrong" about doing that so I try to avoid getting into that situation. I'm always confused about how to keep Sabbath around him ... I don't want to seem legalistic and turn him off to my faith; at the same time I don't want to dishonor the Sabbath either. This has led to some odd permutations, wherein I disappear for nearly the entire duration of Sabbath to pursue church & fellowship activities -- or sit down with him on a Friday evening and play a video game as a way of spending time together.

Disclaimer: Don't listen to me. I'm mentally ill, demonically afflicted, and completely confused about everything. God have mercy on my sick soul.

[Robert]

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Does that make me legalistic?

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I think Adventists concentrate more on man-made dos and don’ts on Sabbath then they do on Jesus Christ.... Again, remember the Jews (especially the Pharisees) were great at keeping the Sabbath! So what, what good did it do for them?

Please ask yourself, "Why don't I work...what is the point?" The Jews didn't ask that question for they just said, "All that the lord has commanded, we will do"....And guess what? They entered the old covenant....

Now let me ask all of you who keep Sabbath a question:

If one does not keep the Sabbath, as presented by SDAs, will he/she be lost? If so, why?

[Amelia]

*tagging on.

Jesus and the apostles gathered and ate on the Sabbath. Who provided and served the food to them? Did they do it themselves? Does the bible speak to this one?

Jesus and the apostles walked together and ate wheat from the fields on the Sabbath. Could that be deamed eating out?

[Robert]

Amelia,

They will argue with you until the cows come home....The bottom line is that the Jews needed a relationship with Christ....Instead they had a love affair with the law - especially the Sabbath. Look at what happened....Why? He told them that they were still sinners and they didn't like it.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi to you all. I would say first things first. If I love my Lord with all my heart, soul, mind and body I would not be concerned about what I should and should not do on the Sabbath. If I don't love my Lord with all my heart, soul, mind and body my Sabbath keeping in not a witness of my love for Him and therefore is no witness and really doesn't benefit me as it should.

If I take a step back and realize all that is mine in Christ and use my God given imagination to live in His love and choose to let Him work in me, them my relationship with my Father and Jesus becomes life giving to me and those around me.

At that point I can share in church, visit nursing homes with my guitar, go to prison and have a Bible study or visit someone who's down or happy. I do this with other members of the body (togetherness is a bessing). My thoughts are on, "How can a get these people to know the love of God?" not on what I can or can't do on God's sacred day. Then the Sabbath is truly a delight for me and the stress of not wanting to do wrong on the Sabbath and looking at the clock to see if it's over yet is history. That's the way I view things.

Peace and blessings from above,

Norman

[Denise]

Hey everyone!

I'm with my hubby Norman and Robert all the way! The Sabbath is a delight to me, because I now focus on my relationship with Christ. Naturally, I love visiting the nursing homes, and letting the love of God flow through me. I receive a blessing as the Lord blesses those through me I come in contact with.

When my dog needs fresh water on the Sabbath, I am going to give him fresh water, I feel compelled to do that. I know the Lord loves us, and loves the animals as well, and I know that if He was on earth now, and seen that my dog needed some fresh water from the hot day, (water does get warm and stale outside) He would give it to him. It's a service of love.

[Gerr]

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Does that make me legalistic?

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I think Adventists concentrate more on man-made dos and don’ts on Sabbath then they do on Jesus Christ.... Again, remember the Jews (especially the Pharisees) were great at keeping the Sabbath! So what, what good did it do for them?

Please ask yourself, "Why don't I work...what is the point?" The Jews didn't ask that question for they just said, "All that the lord has commanded, we will do"....And guess what? They entered the old covenant....

Now let me ask all of you who keep Sabbath a question:

If one does not keep the Sabbath, as presented by SDAs, will he/she be lost? If so, why?

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[:"blue"]If you willfully break the 2nd, 6th or 7th or any of the other commandments, will you be lost? Why? Or why not? [/]

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

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My understanding is that the word "pleasure" used in Isaiah and other places in reference to Sabbath keeping specifically meant business pleasure

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How about pleasure = self satisfaction? Pride? Vanity?

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Most of my life I was bothered by the apparent contradictions of the good Adventist proof text for the Sabbath found in Isaiah 58. (pleasure - no vs. delight - yes) It wasn't until I started looking at it in its full context that its meaning became very clear and those contradictions disappeared.

I find it interesting that Isaiah 58:13 is at the end of a discourse on fasting in the context of Israel seeking God and their efforts to worship Him. Notice the introduction in verses 1-2. Isaiah is instructed to point out the sins of the people and goes on to describe their diligent efforts in seeking God. They seem to be doing the worshipful things of seeking after God and fasting with all humility. But their efforts to impress God with their piety are not the worship and fasting that God desires. Notice in verses 6-12 which God introduces with the question, "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen..." freeing the oppressed and burdened, righting injustice, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, providing shelter for the homeless. Notice God's response to this form of worship. The passage then concludes with a distinctly parallel message about the Sabbath.

As we have all struggled over the "seeking your own pleasure" phrase it is useful to pay particular attention to how that phrase is used in the earlier discourse on fasting in verses 3-4. The phrase "seeking your own pleasure" is not the best translation as its contemporary meaning is quite different than in the time of King James. A better translation in more contemporary expression is perhaps "doing as you please" or quite simply, being selfish or doing something for selfish reasons. In that context the Lord describes that "doing as you please" means exploiting ones workers, quarreling and fighting, etc. Also notice the contrasting acceptable "fasting" and worship that is then described. Now use that to understand what seems in context almost an aside reference to Sabbath keeping. "Doing as you please" has far less to do with doing what we enjoy, having fun and seeking pleasurable activities on the Sabbath, but is following our sinful desires to the detriment of our fellow humans or ignoring their needs caused by the conditions of this sinful world. Worry over whether to swim, ride a bike or doing enjoyable things on the Sabbath seems to miss the point entirely.

I am impressed that Jesus kept the Sabbath by reaching out to people by addressing their needs in a real and practical sense. After all, this was His message to the children of Israel through the prophet Isaiah. Our worship and praise to God which is most pleasing to Him is ministering to the needs of our fellow humans. It seems that faithfully attending Church, singing, praying and all the forms of modern "fasting" we practice on Sabbath to honor and worship God today really have little to do with true Sabbath keeping that is pleasing to God. (Indeed, they may rather help us ignore and avoid doing real good by taking up our Sabbath hours and keeping us away from those who have real needs.) Rather we ought to hit the streets and help those in need and leave the world a better place because the followers of Christ reached out and touched the unclean and brought healing and help to our neighbors. (See Luke 10:29-37) True worship that is acceptable to God is all about how we relate to our fellow humans. (If you are going swimming on the Sabbath, how about taking a bunch of inner city kids with you and go to the beach?) We need to understand Jesus' command to love God by loving people and that showing God's love to people by doing good to them on the Sabbath is excellent Sabbath worship!

It has absolutely nothing to do with recreational activity or doing something you enjoy or whether the activity involves physical activity, commonly viewed as working. (In today's culture we "work out" at the gym. As a lawyer my "work requires little physical labor and is mostly mental exertion. For me to stop all manner of "work" on the Sabbath would be to take a mental break and stop thinking for 24 hours. I prefer to change what I am thinking about -- to start thinking about others on the Sabbath.) Otherwise enjoying worshiping in Church, eating a good meal, enjoying a nature walk all would be breaking the Sabbath, because I find pleasure and satisfaction in doing all of them. Understanding the phrase wrongly also renders verse 13 self-contradicting by first saying don't do anything pleasurable and then instructing us to call the Sabbath a delight. By understanding the context it really makes much more sense. So go out and enjoy yourself on Sabbath! And nothing brings greater joy and satisfaction than to help someone by easing their burdens, whatever they may be, even if you have to work hard to help someone in need . Don't be selfish - share a Sabbath day's blessing with somebody. No emergency is necessary.

Tom

[Clio]

Tom -

You made my day. I use Isaiah 58 as a devotional any day that I choose to fast. And so much of what you have expressed here has enhanced my understanding of that verse... Once again, what Abba, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were pleased to teach, has been graciously confirmed by two witnesses... You, and this passage of Isaiah are the second.

Thank you for posting.

Clio

[Robert]

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If you

willfully

break the 2nd, 6th or 7th or any of the other commandments, will you be lost? Why? Or why not? [/]

Gerry

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No!

Because we are not under the law....Like Paul states...if you make one rule conditional - you must obey the whole law (Torah). See Gal 5:1-4

Now I will agree that under grace we do become transformed as we look to Christ's agape love....But growth is a matter between one's personal walk with Christ and nothing more....

Try a relationship with God and not the law....You can't be married to the law and Christ simultaneously. That's what Romans 7:1-6 is all about.

[Amelia]

Tom, what a wonderful way to look at the Sabbath. Makes me think about volunteering at the food bank in a different light.

[Gerr]

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If you

willfully

break the 2nd, 6th or 7th or any of the other commandments, will you be lost? Why? Or why not? [/]

Gerry

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No!

Because we are not under the law....Like Paul states...if you make one rule conditional - you must obey the whole law (Torah). See Gal 5:1-4

Now I will agree that under grace we do become transformed as we look to Christ's agape love....But growth is a matter between one's personal walk with Christ and nothing more....

Try a relationship with God and not the law....You can't be married to the law and Christ simultaneously. That's what Romans 7:1-6 is all about.

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[:"blue"]You contradict the plainest words of Scripture. It is written: [:"red"]"The soul who sins shall die." Ez 18:4. "The wages of sin is death...." Rom 6:23.

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? ....he shall die.......When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord GOD. Therefore turn and live!" Ez 18:24-32 NKJ.

"For this you know, that NO FORNICATOR, UNCLEAN PERSON, NOR COVETOUS MAN, WHO IS AN IDOLATER, HAS ANY INERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND GOD. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them." Eph 5:5-7 NKJ. [/]

[:"blue"]

What part of "NO" don't you understand, Robert? It is NOT good news for God to take into His kingdom people who continue to flout the laws of His kingdom. [/]

[:"red"]"For if we sin WILLFULLY after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a CERTAIN fearful expectation of jugment, and fiery indignation which will DEVOUR the adversaries." Heb 10:26,27 NKJ. [/]

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

Amelia and Clio, I am glad you appreciated this perspective.

Tom

[Gerr]

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Try a relationship with God and not the law....You can't be married to the law and Christ simultaneously. That's what Romans 7:1-6 is all about.

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[:"blue"]When you are married to Christ, you are married to the One who is the very embodiment of the Law!!! [/]

Gerry

[Clio]

Just as works without faith is dead, so is faith without works. See James.

They are both necessary to experiential faith.

Clio

[Gerr]

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Just as works without faith is dead, so is faith without works. See James.

They are both necessary to experiential faith.

Clio

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[:"blue"]Unfortunately, Robert only wants 1/2 of it, i.e. just the faith without the validation of experience. [/]

Gerry

[Clio]

It not up to us to determine what Robert wants. Only Abba can see his heart.

And I have found, that I can appear to break the Sabbath, and still be following Abba's will.

Clio

[Gerr]

True, and thanks for the reminder. I have no desire to guess or read what's in his heart. He has openly declared what's in his heart about God's Law. Read on what Robert has posted and you will find he wants nothing to do with the laws that govern God's kingdom. Any mention of obedience is automatically met with charges of, "legalism"!!!

Gerry

[Clio]

I have read, Gerry. All we can do is point him to James, and pray for him. There is such freedom in experiential faith, but it's not easy to come by.

Oh... and pray for him. Abba, Jesus and the Spirit will do the rest.

Clio

[Robert]

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Try a relationship with God and not the law....You can't be married to the law and Christ simultaneously. That's what Romans 7:1-6 is all about.

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[:"blue"]When you are married to Christ, you are married to the One who is the very embodiment of the Law!!! [/]

Gerry

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Let's see what it says:

• Rom 7:1 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?

  But if you die the law can't touch you!

  2 For example, by law (i.e., the law of marriage) a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.

  Paul is using "the law marriage" to illustrate a point. Here the woman represents "us". The husband "the law".

  3 So then, if she marries another man (who represents Christ) while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress.

  The point here is that you can't be married to the law and Christ simultaneously. Why? Spiritual adultery!

  But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man [Jesus].

  Okay, in Paul's illustration "the law" dies....But in the application, "we" die....Let's read on:

  4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law (it demanded you death) [:"red"]in the body of Christ[/], that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

  Notice that we bear fruit when married to Christ....It says nothing of law perfection.

  5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

  In other words before our conversion to the true gospel all the "good things" we did was out of fear of being "under law"

  6 But now, by dying to what once bound us , [:"red"]we have been released from the law[/] so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code [the law].

[Gerr]

How can you be released from the law if you continue to willfully break it? How can you be dead if you continue to live the SAME life as before?

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

How can you be released from the law if you continue to willfully break it? How can you be dead if you continue to live the SAME life as before?

Gerry

Hi Gerry, man, I don't know how to respond to your questions. You've just told me that you're lost. You are describing yourself, right?

If your not then you're telling me that you no longer willfully break the law and your life is changed into the likeness of Christ. (bare with me a minute)

I have good news though, Being released from the law means we don't have to pay for the penalty of the broken law, Christ did that for us all!!! We are free from the 2nd death. Now that good news alone should make a change in our lives; if you believe it! We are no longer under the law; its curse and the threat of 2nd death no longer frighten us into keeping the law in order to be approved of God.

I live unto God and even though I blow it now and then (willfully at that) Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover that; and that my friend is humbling, then I can continue to praise Him.

The question that comes into my mind is, How can we continue in sin knowing what Christ has done for us?

We are not under the law, Christ was made a curse for us to free us from that.

2 points - Point 1, Hebrews 10: 26, 27 (Context) Those who return to animal sacrifices and willyfully turn their back on Christ as "The" Sacrifice and do not repent, no longer have Him as their sacrifice and are lost. It does not mean, "anyone who willfully sins after receiving the knowledge of the truth will be lost." That is contrary to scripture. "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Matt 12:31

Point 2 - In James 2 James starts out talking about the law but then starts talking about works of faith. Who does he use as examples? Abraham and Rahab. Abraham's was asked to kill his son, that is not law keeping and Rahab, what law did she keep? James is stating that these works proved they had faith.

For some strange reason we think he is talking about keeping the law. He can't be for it is evident the "just" shall live "or do their works" by faith. No one is justified by keeping the law.

How to be dead,

Likewise RECKON ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:11.

If ones life has not changed; in Christ, he is still dead, but has not experienced that reality and unless he chooses to believe in Chirst he will lose all that he has.

Ellen White wrote, the condtions for eternal life have always been the same, obedience to the law of God.

Once you know what is yours in Christ, the question remains: will you believe that God loves and justifies the ungodly and would do all that for me? If you do, then the Holy Spirit enters in and God begins His work in us to prepare us for work here and in the hereafter. If you don't believe then you lose the gift of eternal life and do not inherit God.

With all our faults and imperfections, God looks down upon His church and calls it the apple of His eye.

God bless,

my Brother