what is breaking the Sabbath to you?

[Robert]

"You tie up heavy loads, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but you yourself are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." [taken from Matt 23:4]

The fact is we are all falling short of God's agape love. In other words we are never reaching the high demands of God's law.

That being said, should we condone "known" sin as a legitimate lifestyle? No! However, the only way to grow is to accept the gospel...not a perverted gospel such as the Pharisees and Judaizers had, but rather the gospel that Paul taught.

Again, Gerry, the law (the principle) written into the conscience (the heart) is the principle of the last six commands of the moral law. E.G., we know by conscience that adultery is sin....So the believer will hate sin...will hate his flesh....This, however, doesn't mean that he is above sin. Like King David, he might do something terrible...but he will learn from it - he will not condone and practice it.

So, if we were under law we would never make it to heaven. Hence, we had to be delivered from the law because of our weakness...our natures.

But again, if you make one sin a test for heaven, you have to make the whole law a test for eternal life. That's being "under law"....

[Gerr]

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"You tie up heavy loads, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but you yourself are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." [taken from Matt 23:4]

The fact is we are all falling short of God's agape love. In other words we are never reaching the high demands of God's law.

That being said, should we condone "known" sin as a legitimate lifestyle? No!

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[:"blue"]This is what is frustrating about your double-talk theology. On the one hand you claim the believer no longer has to keep the law, and on the other hand he/she cannot have sinning or breaking the law as a legitimate lifestyle!!! Make up your mind, Robert, and stop talking on both sides of your mouth!!!

A heavy load? Is that what you call God's Law that sets nations & people free??? [/]

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However, the only way to grow is to accept the gospel...not a perverted gospel such as the Pharisees and Judaizers had, but rather the gospel that Paul taught.

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[:"blue"]And what is growth in the gospel? Is it not a life that is more and more in harmony with the will/law of God? [/]

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Again, Gerry, the law (the principle) written into the conscience (the heart) is the principle of the last six commands of the moral law. E.G., we know by conscience that adultery is sin....So the believer will hate sin...will hate his flesh....This, however, doesn't mean that he is above sin. Like King David, he might do something terrible...but he will learn from it - he will not condone and practice it.

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[:"blue"]Oxymoron theology!!! Again, you claim the believer is not bound to keep any of the 6c, and yet you claim the believer will hate sin, i.e. hates breaking it!!! What kind of weed are you smoking, man? [/]

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So, if we were under law we would never make it to heaven. Hence, we had to be delivered from the law because of our weakness...our natures.

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[:"blue"] Herein lies the basis for your erroneous understanding of the law. When Paul says the believer is not under law, he means under law as the means, the basis for salvation. Neither the law nor our obedience to it is what saves us. The basis for salvation is ALL in what God has done & does FOR the believer. But does this release the believer from obedience to the law? Perish the thought! The whole object of grace is to restore man back to obedience that he did before he sinned, NOT preserve him in his disobedience!! His law, therefore, remains the standard for righteous living, not only in the now, but throughout all eternity. [/]

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But again, if you make one sin a test for heaven, you have to make the whole law a test for eternal life. That's being "under law"....

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[:"blue"] If sin got Satan & his followers booted out of heaven, if sin got Adam & Eve booted out of Eden, if sin got the Israelites booted out of the Promised Land, if sin got Saul booted out of his kingship, if sin got Judas booted out of his apostleship, if sin bot Ananias & Saphira booted out of the church, what makes you think that you can willfully sin and still expect entrance into heaven? What sets you apart from them? Can't you see that if sin is admitted into heaven that like leaven will leaven the whoe lump all over again? Else why did Jesus give these warnings?

[:"red"]"But WHOEVER causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to SIN, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, TO GO TO HELL....

And if your foot causes you to SIN, cut it off. It is better for you enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell....

And if your eye causes you to SIN , pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire..." Mk 9:42-47 NKJ[/]

Jesus repeated the warning about the penalty of sinning FOUR TIMES!!! so that there can be no misunderstanding what He said.

Robert, where sin abounds, grace much more superabounds. But God has never ever intended grace to embrace sin. NEVER!!![/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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But again, if you make one sin a test for heaven, you have to make the whole law a test for eternal life. That's being "under law"....

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If sin got Satan & his followers booted out of heaven, if sin got Adam & Eve booted out of Eden, if sin got the Israelites booted out of the Promised Land, if sin got Saul booted out of his kingship....Can't you see that if sin is admitted into heaven that like leaven will leaven the whoe lump all over again? Else why did Jesus give these warnings?

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I just quoted Paul...your argument is with him:

• Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [as a means of salvation - see Acts 15:1,5] , that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

I can tell by your argument you believe in the holy flesh heresy....The only way not to take "sin" into heaven is to receive our glorified lives presently residing in Christ Jesus. This life is free from indwelling sin and mortality. I suggest you take advantage of this truth....

[doctortechie]

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When I was a teen and lived with my grandmother, I wasn't allowed to do ANYTHING but read the Bible on the sabbath. I was a hyperactive child and the sabbath was pure agony...watch the clock, sit and wait while the day drags like purgatory hell already. The adults slept all afternoon, and probably earned that right as well. Yes, I know what's in the Bible because of that rule, but I dreaded the sabbath, resented it, got red-faced angry, couldn't hardly wait for the very minute of sundown to be released from my bondage. Left the church as soon as I graduated and got out of the house. Didn't come back for 20 yrs. I'm sure my grandmother will be in heaven, no doubt about it...not so sure about myself the rebel. So what about that, you who think you know what God thinks about what to do or not do on the sabbath?

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Restin, I'm very sorry about this experience of yours. I had something similar until I left home, family and church and came back to find that God had not abandoned me. I was lucky to find a wife who studied the Bible with me and we slowly learned that the Sabbath was the biggest blessing of the week that God bestowed upon us. It gave us time out from the world. However, as a child, I feel it is very difficult particularly as growing up in the religion can sometimes (unfortunately) become a series of "don'ts". Don't do this; don't do that. Don't question why these rules exist.

[Robert]

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And

if your foot causes you to SIN

, cut it off. It is better for you enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell....

And if your eye causes you to SIN

, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire..." Mk 9:42-47 NKJ[/]

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Christ was being facetious…even sarcastic! Your "eyes" do not cause you to sin....Neither does your feet. Sure, they may help you to sin, but sin comes from within....Let's look at this:

"For from within, out of the heart [desires] of man, come evil thoughts...."

Christ is attacking the leaven of the Pharisees whose teaching made one twice the son of hell....

Verse 42 “And whoever causes one of these humble ones who believe to stumble [to fall from grace], it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.

[Gerr]

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But again, if you make one sin a test for heaven, you have to make the whole law a test for eternal life. That's being "under law"....

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If sin got Satan & his followers booted out of heaven, if sin got Adam & Eve booted out of Eden, if sin got the Israelites booted out of the Promised Land, if sin got Saul booted out of his kingship....Can't you see that if sin is admitted into heaven that like leaven will leaven the whoe lump all over again? Else why did Jesus give these warnings?

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I just quoted Paul...your argument is with him:

• Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [as a means of salvation - see Acts 15:1,5] , that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

[:"blue"]I don't know how many times I have to repeat it, Robert, for it to sink in, that the believer keeps the law NOT to be saved, but rather as evidence that he/she has been saved, that he/she who was formerly devoid of the Holy Spirit, is now indwelt by the Holy Spirit, changing that heart of stone into a heart of sanctified flesh in which He writes the principle of the law of God. Christian good works are not for personal merit, they are to bring glory to the Father, Mt 5:16.

The same Paul whom you are appealing to for authority for not keeping the law, plainly says that those "who practice such things [breaking the law] will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21 NKJ.

He says the same thing in Eph 5:5-7, "For this you know, that no fornicator [those who break the 7th c], unclean person [i'm not sure which specific commandment this violates], nor covetous man [violators of the 10th c], who is an idolater [violator of the 2nd c] has ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE. Therefore do not be partakers with them."

Robert, I don't know how much more clearly the Bible has to speak to you to tell you that sin cannot/will not/could not be admitted into heaven.

When a sinner truly repents, he/she changes his/her mind about the direction he/she is going, & is sorry enough to turn around and go the opposite direction. The works he/she does are not his/her works. "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NKJ. If it is God who is at work, then it can never be for salvation, rather it is the RESULT of salvation. The evidence of salvation, if you please, just as you claim that your keeping the Sabbath is a sign of your faith in God. [/]

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I can tell by your argument you believe in the holy flesh heresy....The only way not to take "sin" into heaven is to receive our glorified lives presently residing in Christ Jesus. This life is free from indwelling sin and mortality. I suggest you take advantage of this truth....

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[:"blue"]I have said this before but I'll say it again. Holy flesh is NOT possible until we put on immortality at the Second Coming. But according to the Apostle John, when one is born from above & abiding in Christ & indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I have stated this many times before & I'll declare it again, that that person will no longer willfully/high handedly/intentionally commit a known sin. [/]

Gerry