"Soul Sleep" - Looking for volunteers to join a discussion

[Jonah]

Hello,

Are the dead conscious?

I am currently engaged in a discussion on this topic, and am looking for able and willing souls to participate in said discussion. I am on the fence on this issue, as I can see Biblical evidence for both sides of the debate. The discussion can be found here:

http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?135-Are-the-dead-conscious&p=593#post593

I think HansC has made a decent case thus far for his position that the dead are conscious, but I'm still not convinced. In the hopes of learning more about this subject, I am here to "recruit" some volunteers to share their insights. Thanks in advance to whoever decides to join the discussion!

-Jonah

[John317]

For good material on this subject, and especially from the viewpoint that the dead are not conscious, I invite you to read the exchanges here:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/TheBibleUnlimited/402277429797637/

I take part in the discussions there.

[Jonah]

Thanks, John. However, I don't have a facebook account.

I learn best when actively participating in the discussion, which is why I am asking others to join the discussion and present their case.

[Kevin H]

Get a concordance and look up the texts dealing with Sheol

[Lysimachus]

Facebook is a must these days Jonah.

Basically it's how we share videos, media, articles, keep one another up-to-date instantly, build connections with others of the same mind, and reach out to people. Excellent tool for God these days. The Devil uses it too, but God always has a way of letting good and truth prevail in the end. :)

[BobRyan]

Jonah - I responded on the Matt 22 point on your thread at that other forum - and was about to respond to the New Covenant point regarding their failed "two gospel" solution - but the thread is closed and it appears that your account is now banned over there. (Not sure why)

So here is an answer to your question here.

Quote:

Welcome to the forum. Very interesting points to consider! What do you make of the Transfiguration? Does it not suggest that Moses and Elijah are conscious, even now?

According to the bible Elijah was taken directly to heaven by God.

And in the book of Jude - the statement about "Michael in dispute with the devil over the body of Moses" is a quote from the book "The Assumption of Moses".

That book teaches that Moses was assumed into heaven via bodily resurrection.

So while it is true that Moses and Elijah are both conscious and very much alive - (not dead) - in Matt 17... it is not an example of what "dead people can do" rather it is an example of what a translated person and a resurrected person can do.

Hope that helps.

in Christ,

Bob

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

Hello,

Are the dead conscious?

[Woody]

Quote:

There is "evidence" for just about anything in the Bible.

Exactly Doug. And this is the reason we have so many beliefs and churches. People run off half cocked when they see on text that they can relate to.

Like you say - you have to look at the Bible as a whole. No proof texting.

(I was going to post a text to 'prove' this. But then thought better of it considering what I just said.)

And btw - let me extend by personal welcome to Jonah.

[Jonah]

Thanks, Bob. But if Elijah resurrected before Jesus, then why is Jesus called the firstborn of the dead and the firstfruits?

As for why I was banned, it's because they thought for some reason that I was a troll that had been there before. This is not true, and I am still a bit perplexed by how they treated me and judged me without any evidence. They called us "pretenders" if you recall. The forum at Christianwebsite.com evidently has some really unChristlike and paranoid members. I'm ashamed of their actions there, and I'm embarassed I invited you folks over there. Sorry.

Jonah - I responded on the Matt 22 point on your thread at that other forum - and was about to respond to the New Covenant point regarding their failed "two gospel" solution - but the thread is closed and it appears that your account is now banned over there. (Not sure why)

So here is an answer to your question here.

Quote:

Welcome to the forum. Very interesting points to consider! What do you make of the Transfiguration? Does it not suggest that Moses and Elijah are conscious, even now?

According to the bible Elijah was taken directly to heaven by God.

And in the book of Jude - the statement about "Michael in dispute with the devil over the body of Moses" is a quote from the book "The Assumption of Moses".

That book teaches that Moses was assumed into heaven via bodily resurrection.

So while it is true that Moses and Elijah are both conscious and very much alive - (not dead) - in Matt 17... it is not an example of what "dead people can do" rather it is an example of what a translated person and a resurrected person can do.

Hope that helps.

in Christ,

Bob

in Christ,

Bob

[Jonah]

Thanks, Woody.

Quote:

There is "evidence" for just about anything in the Bible.

Exactly Doug. And this is the reason we have so many beliefs and churches. People run off half cocked when they see on text that they can relate to.

Like you say - you have to look at the Bible as a whole. No proof texting.

(I was going to post a text to 'prove' this. But then thought better of it considering what I just said.)

And btw - let me extend by personal welcome to Jonah.

[BobRyan]

Thanks, Bob. But if Elijah resurrected before Jesus, then why is Jesus called the firstborn of the dead and the firstfruits?

Jesus is called "The first born of Creation" in Revelation 1 - but not because he was created.

In the Gospels everyone admits that Jesus raised people from the dead. In fact we see people raised form the dead by Elisha and others even in the OT.

Welcome to this forum. I signed up at that other (apparently not so friendly??) forum per your request - so I might get a chance to put in a good word about Jonah before it is all done.

in Christ,

Bob

[Jonah]

Bob,

I'm not questioning the fact that people were raised from the dead prior to Jesus's resurrection. But Jesus is called the firstfruits of those that sleep (the dead). In what sense can this be?

Thanks for the kind thought to put in a good word for me. I really hope they can see that the way they treated me was utterly uncalled for. I'll be watching your discussion over there. I have a feeling I'm going to learn a good deal from it.

[Kevin H]

Jesus was called the first fruits of the resurection because he was raised at the feast of first fruits, and is what makes the promise of the resurection and eternal life possible. However the Bible tells us that Enoch did not die but that God took him, and Elijah did not die but was taken in a firery chariot up to heaven and the New Testament conferms what Jews believed that Moses was raised from the dead. We cannot form a theology that excludes the plain words of scripture.

[Lysimachus]

Hi Jonah.

This post I made may help you:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7557635/#post57423829

And also read my 2 posts starting here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7557635-2/#post57473226

It is a post proving that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses went to heaven in bodily form, including a number of Old Testament saints at Christ's resurrection.

The critics like to argue that no one went to heaven in bodily form before Jesus because He was the "firstfruits".

They are getting locked into a chronological "mindset", rather than the spiritual implications. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and while Christ's death and resurrection was yet "future", it was still before the foundation of the world legally speaking. Often times the scriptures speak of an event that is future as though it were past. Example: Isaiah 44:22 says that God had "blotted out" Israel's transgression and sins as a thick cloud, and that God had "redeemed them". Yet the physical transaction of Christ's death would not occur until another 700 years later. Another example is Psalms 68:18, where the patriarch David declared that the Lord "ascended (past) on high, that thou hast led captivity captive". David spoke about a future event as though it were past.

This same principle is to be applied for Christ's resurrection and the first-fruits. Physically, His death, resurrection and ascension occurred after some men were bodily translated or resurrected--such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and numerous OT saints at Christ's ascension. But spiritually, Christ had done all this before--which truly reveals what "first" really means.

All those who were resurrected in Christ were a part of the first fruits--and those who are resurrected in the last day will be the completion of those first fruits.

The evangelical world is aloof to these deeper spiritual insights. I've debated these kinds of issue with the men you are talking about for a long time. Would you like me to join you?

Point me out the exact links to his posts.

[Lysimachus]

Let me know if what I stated above makes sense to you.

[phkrause]

Thanks, Bob. But if Elijah resurrected before Jesus, then why is Jesus called the firstborn of the dead and the firstfruits?

That's because Elijah was not resurrected, he never died!

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I'm not questioning the fact that people were raised from the dead prior to Jesus's resurrection. But Jesus is called the firstfruits of those that sleep (the dead). In what sense can this be?

Thanks for the kind thought to put in a good word for me. I really hope they can see that the way they treated me was utterly uncalled for. I'll be watching your discussion over there. I have a feeling I'm going to learn a good deal from it.

Jesus was born 2000 years ago - and yet he is called the "firstborn" of creation in Revelation 1. It means the first in order of importance - but it does not mean that nobody was born before Christ.

Jesus was raised the third day after the Friday crucifixion on the feast of First Fruits - but he is not the first person to be raised from the dead - yet he is the first in importance.

As we both agree - many people were raised from the dead by Christ Himself - before His own resurrection.

In fact - if you read Matt 27 carefully you will see that many people were raised from the dead at the time of Christ's death.

Those people went to heaven with Christ.

in Christ,

Bob

[Jonah]

Doh! I knew that...

Originally Posted By: Jonah

Thanks, Bob. But if Elijah resurrected before Jesus, then why is Jesus called the firstborn of the dead and the firstfruits?

That's because Elijah was not resurrected, he never died!

[Jonah]

BobRyan and all,

Thanks for the great responses. For years, I had believed and taught that Jesus was the only person ever to have been given an immortal, incorruptible resurrection body. It would appear that I was wrong about that. I always enjoy being corrected. Now I have much more to think about.

[Gail]

[doug yowell]

Bob,

I'm not questioning the fact that people were raised from the dead prior to Jesus's resurrection. But Jesus is called the firstfruits of those that sleep (the dead).

So if Jesus is called the firstfruits of those who sleep then He must also have been.......unconscious in death until His resurrection.Or as He told his disciples,"Our friend Lazarus is sleeping,but I'm going to wake him up."

[BobRyan]

BobRyan and all,

Thanks for the great responses. For years, I had believed and taught that Jesus was the only person ever to have been given an immortal, incorruptible resurrection body. It would appear that I was wrong about that. I always enjoy being corrected. Now I have much more to think about.

Always glad to be a part of a good Bible study my friend!

In Matt 17 we find Moses and Elijah standing with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration before Christ died or was raised from the dead. Those two men were clearly in immortal, heavenly, eternal body form. And there is no doubt that Matt 17 comes before Christ's death.

The only question is - how did they get to that point?

In the book of 2Kings we find that Elijah was translated.

In the book of Genesis we find that Enoch was translated - taken directly to heaven without seeing death.

And in Jude we find a quote of the book "The Assumption of Moses" - thus giving some evidence that just as the book title states - Moses was resurrected and bodily assumed into heaven.

More than this - those in Matt 27 were raised to life before Christ was raised from the dead - and as we see in Ephesians 4 - Christ led them into heaven at His ascension.

in Christ,

Bob

[jasd]

>>In Matt 17 we find Moses and Elijah standing with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration before Christ died or was raised from the dead. Those two men were clearly in immortal, heavenly, eternal body form. And there is no doubt that Matt 17 comes before Christ's death.<<

Matt 17:9 Tell the vision (spectacle, but nevertheless, vision) to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

>>In the book of 2Kings we find that Elijah was translated.<<

2 Kings 2:11 ...behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 Chron 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying,...

The letter mentioned in 2 Chronicles 21 was a letter to the Judean King Jeraboam two years after having been taken up in the chariot. One wonders at the postal services utilized, yes?

Personally, I’m also of the persuasion that Elijah never died and will be one of the Two Witnesses, as the book of Hebrews(?) says that it is appointed unto all men once to die and Elijah’s time is yet to come. But that flies against the plainly written word of the OT, yes?-as well, the NT.

>>In the book of Genesis we find that Enoch was translated - taken directly to heaven without seeing death.<<

We must be careful when stating that Elijah and Enoch were both taken to heaven. We cannot allude that they were taken to the heaven of heavens where, supposedly, Gd dwells, as Jesus Christ said that no man hath ascended unless he first descended – thereby, precluding Elijah and Enoch having gone to that particular heaven (if Elijah was indeed gone). More’n likely any heaven mentioned would be the heaven of the stars and constellations where dwell others of Gd’s creation – the Club Med Tour, as it were.

>>More than this - those in Matt 27 were raised to life before Christ was raised from the dead - and as we see in Ephesians 4 - Christ led them into heaven at His ascension.<<

More specifically:

Matt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection...

[Lysimachus]

Looks like they banned me too from the Christian Website Forum.

Reason given: Gabe sock puppet

Seems like these guys are extremely sensitive, and overly suspicious.

[Jonah]

That's absurd. So now you and I have been banned because they accuse us of being Gabe. I guess you're next, BobRyan. In fact, Bob, could you direct them to this thread so that they can see that you and Lysimachus are not sock puppets? This is just so bizarre.