"Soul Sleep" - Looking for volunteers to join a discussion

[Jonah]

We must be careful when stating that Elijah and Enoch were both taken to heaven. We cannot allude that they were taken to the heaven of heavens where, supposedly, Gd dwells, as Jesus Christ said that no man hath ascended unless he first descended – thereby, precluding Elijah and Enoch having gone to that particular heaven (if Elijah was indeed gone). More’n likely any heaven mentioned would be the heaven of the stars and constellations where dwell others of Gd’s creation – the Club Med Tour, as it were.

This is tricky. Honestly, it seems like quite a stretch to suggest that Elijah and Enoch ascended to space, and not to the Heaven of heavens. I'll have to think more on it. This would be a serious contradiction in the Bible, and I'm interested in considering all the possible explanations. Does any one else have any other thoughts on this?

[Jonah]

Originally Posted By: Jonah

BobRyan and all,

Thanks for the great responses. For years, I had believed and taught that Jesus was the only person ever to have been given an immortal, incorruptible resurrection body. It would appear that I was wrong about that. I always enjoy being corrected. Now I have much more to think about.

Always glad to be a part of a good Bible study my friend!

In Matt 17 we find Moses and Elijah standing with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration before Christ died or was raised from the dead. Those two men were clearly in immortal, heavenly, eternal body form. And there is no doubt that Matt 17 comes before Christ's death.

The only question is - how did they get to that point?

In the book of 2Kings we find that Elijah was translated.

In the book of Genesis we find that Enoch was translated - taken directly to heaven without seeing death.

And in Jude we find a quote of the book "The Assumption of Moses" - thus giving some evidence that just as the book title states - Moses was resurrected and bodily assumed into heaven.

More than this - those in Matt 27 were raised to life before Christ was raised from the dead - and as we see in Ephesians 4 - Christ led them into heaven at His ascension.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

Jonah (Gabe) and BobRyan,

I sent an email to the administrator of the Christian Website Forum and gave him the link to this thread proving to him that we are different people.

In my last post, I made a joke. They were all wondering where all these SDA's were showing up from. Then I responded with a joke and said that BobRyan and I were Gabe's ghost split in two upon his death. It was a total joke, but they obviously don't know how to handle jokes and would rather choose to accuse us of being all the same person.

Seems like the moderators there have some security issues. They can't handle too much, and are easily offended.

[Lysimachus]

When you have some time BobRyan, put a word in for me. They banned me accusing me of being a sock puppet. Let them know you've known me on ClubAdventist for quite some time now. 1615 posts compared to Jonah's 10 posts.

[Jonah]

It appears then that we independently contacted the admin. Good. Hopefully he'll restore sanity to that board.

I laughed out loud when you addressed me as "Gabe". You're right; a better sense of humor would do wonders for the mods over there.

Jonah (Gabe) and BobRyan,

I sent an email to the administrator of the Christian Website Forum and gave him the link to this thread proving to him that we are different people.

In my last post, I made a joke. They were all wondering where all these SDA's were showing up from. Then I responded with a joke and said that BobRyan and I were Gabe's ghost split in two upon his death. It was a total joke, but they obviously don't know how to handle jokes and would rather choose to accuse us of being all the same person.

Seems like the moderators there have some security issues. They can't handle too much, and are easily offended.

[Jonah]

I was certainly looking forward to hearing more from you there, Lys. Say, where can I find a copy of your book?

When you have some time BobRyan, put a word in for me. They banned me accusing me of being a sock puppet. Let them know you've known me on ClubAdventist for quite some time now. 1615 posts compared to Jonah's 10 posts.

[BobRyan]

Will do.

[Lysimachus]

Jonah,

Perhaps I'm confused. Is Gabe a different person? What screenname did you go by on that other site?

I was under the impression that you went by "Gabe" on that other site based on what they were saying?

[Jonah]

For some reason unknown to me, they think I am someone named Gabe who evidently trolls their site. And now they apparently think you are Gabe too. Bizarre place.

Jonah,

Perhaps I'm confused. Is Gabe a different person? What screenname did you go by on that other site?

I was under the impression that you went by "Gabe" on that other site based on what they were saying?

[doug yowell]

The letter mentioned in 2 Chronicles 21 was a letter to the Judean King Jeraboam two years after having been taken up in the chariot. One wonders at the postal services utilized, yes?

[Jonah]

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world...

Marcos,

Could that be a mistranslation of Rev. 13:8?

Compare with Rev. 17:8. As I see it, both verses refer to " the foundation of the world" as the time when names were (and weren't) written in the Book of Life (or the Book of Life of the Slain Lamb).

What do you think?

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world...

Marcos,

Could that be a mistranslation of Rev. 13:8?

Compare with Rev. 17:8. As I see it, both verses refer to " the foundation of the world" as the time when names were (and weren't) written in the Book of Life (or the Book of Life of the Slain Lamb).

What do you think?

The foundation of the world simply means at the beginning of the world. From the very beginning, God knew of this beast power and its followers that would not be in the book of life. The serpent and its seed were already cursed.

Protestants for centuries, and even SOP has been categorically clear that the "foundation of the world" means from the very beginning of the world. The benefits of Christ's death had to have already been in effect so that Adam and Even could not die. Otherwise, they would have been zapped on the spot. The plan of redemption was already put in place before the earth was created.

While Christ's death was legally in effect when man sinned, the physical transaction did not occur on the cross until 4,000 years later.

The death of Christ was immediately in effect the moment Adam and Eve sinned.

[Jonah]

Marcos,

What I am suggesting is that the text is not saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Rather, the text is more likely saying that the names of God's enemies were not written in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world. Consider this translation:

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

-Rev. 13:8 (ESV)

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote;jasd

The letter mentioned in 2 Chronicles 21 was a letter to the Judean King Jeraboam two years after having been taken up in the chariot. One wonders at the postal services utilized, yes?

>>Or possibly a scribe who confused the name Elisha with Elijah.<<

Possibly, however, a very slippery slope to venture upon, as everything now accepted as literal would become numinous - where would it end?

Quote:

Quote:jasd

We must be careful when stating that Elijah and Enoch were both taken to heaven. We cannot allude that they were taken to the heaven of heavens where, supposedly, Gd dwells, as Jesus Christ said that no man hath ascended unless he first descended – thereby, precluding Elijah and Enoch having gone to that particular heaven (if Elijah was indeed gone). More’n likely any heaven mentioned would be the heaven of the stars and constellations where dwell others of Gd’s creation – the Club Med Tour, as it were.

>>Wouldn't it be less careless than to imagine that they were taken to someplace that humans have no record of? A place where they have no direct access to God?

Perhaps interdimensional space-time?

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:Bob Ryan

More than this - those in Matt 27 were raised to life before Christ was raised from the dead - and as we see in Ephesians 4 - Christ led them into heaven at His ascension.

Quote:jasd

More specifically:

Matt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection...

>>and went........? Revelation reveals a picture of 24 elders sitting on 24 thrones around The Throne. These elders are self described as being "redeemed" and fully human.Another "angel" described himself as a co-prophet with John. When and how did they get there?<<

Several options: 1) many OT people arose with Jesus Christ at His resurrection and thereafter ascended together with Him. 2) All those 'living and believing' at the time of Jesus Christ and forward, went directly to where Jesus Christ is upon expiring.

[cheddar]

>>Wouldn't it be less careless than to imagine that they were taken to someplace that humans have no record of? A place where they have no direct access to God?

Perhaps interdimensional space-time?

They were on there way to heaven when they fell into a wormhole and ended up in a different galaxy. Moses said to Elijah "look what you did, now we're lost" and Elijah said "that's ok, the flaming chariot will come to pick me up, but not you". Moses said "why not?" and Elijah said "you have to be a commandemnt keeper to get a ride and you broke all ten commandments at once".

[Lysimachus]

Marcos,

What I am suggesting is that the text is not saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Rather, the text is more likely saying that the names of God's enemies were not written in the Book of Life at the foundation of the world. Consider this translation:

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

-Rev. 13:8 (ESV)

Correct, that is another verse.

Legally speaking, Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.

In the same legal sense, Christ already knew who was not going to be saved from the foundation of the world. From the very beginning, He already knew that they would choose death. It's speaking of the Beast power and all who worship it. He foresaw all of this happening, from the beginning.

[BobRyan]

>>In Matt 17 we find Moses and Elijah standing with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration before Christ died or was raised from the dead. Those two men were clearly in immortal, heavenly, eternal body form. And there is no doubt that Matt 17 comes before Christ's death.<<

Matt 17:9 Tell the vision (spectacle, but nevertheless, vision) to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

>>In the book of 2Kings we find that Elijah was translated.<<

2 Kings 2:11 ...behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world...

Marcos,

Could that be a mistranslation of Rev. 13:8?

Compare with Rev. 17:8. As I see it, both verses refer to " the foundation of the world" as the time when names were (and weren't) written in the Book of Life (or the Book of Life of the Slain Lamb).

What do you think?

Christ was slain since the foundation of the world - due to the Romans 4:17 principle.

17(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; (NKJV)

Job 38:4 - God laid he foundation of the World at creation

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Seems like the moderators there have some security issues. They can't handle too much, and are easily offended.

That is not entirely unprecedented. Some boards are very open to discussion on points that differ with the moderators pet views and some are very closed or at least very restricted.

The non-SDA Christian message board venue is not a joking matter in many cases -- these guys watch for even the slightest misstep by an SDA while ignoring entire elephant sized missteps if done by non-SDAs.

Non-SDA Christian message boards are actually where I have spent most of my time until the last 3 or 4 years when I turned the majority of my attention to SDA issues.

The other thing that you will find is that on every discussion board there is at least one screenname that operates in a privileged position but serves only as a kind of gadfly seeking an ad hominem level discussion. Their purpose is to try to get you to "respond in kind" because if you do - you will soon be banned. They offer almost nothing of substance to whatever topic you are focused on - but they try whether directly or indirectly to simply "push buttons" with a serious SDA poster.

Another point to remember with non-SDA boards is the "sola scriptura" principle. You cannot defend your beliefs by another other than non-SDA sources PLUS the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

Well stated Bob.

Also, concerning the "vision" in Matthew 17:19, jasb misses this point. He fails to go by the other interpretations:

Luke

9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.

9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering.

9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:

9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

9:32 But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.

9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.

9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept [it] close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.

Mark

9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.

9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.

So we see that Matthew's account is the only one that uses the word "vision". Luke and Mark say "seen".

The Greek word for "vision" in Matthew 17:9 is "Heroma", which means:

Strong's #3705

1. that which is seen, spectacle

2. a sight divinely granted in an ecstasy or in a sleep, a vision

Thus, the "primary" definition of this word is that which is seen, or a spectacle. It can mean a literal spectacle. When you are watching a theatrical event, that is literally taking a place, that is a "seen" or "spectacle".

The context of the passages clearly indicate that Moses and Elijah were literally present.

[doug yowell]

2 Chron 21:12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying,...

The letter mentioned in 2 Chronicles 21 was a letter to the Judean King Jeraboam two years after having been taken up in the chariot.

The letter written by Elijah before being translated is sent to the Judean king Jehoram (Joram) (2Chron 2:21) in the south while Elijah is still on earth -- before being translated and before Johoram (Joram) in the North takes up his reign.

So Elijah was still alive in the Northern Kingdom at that time. This is why he only ministers to Jehoram via a letter.

There is a King Jehoram (Joram) of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) that begins to rule just after Elijah is taken to heaven and rules Israel in the north while the other king Jehoram (Joram)is still ruling the Southern Kingdom (Judea).

The guy in the Southern kingdom rules for only 8 years (2Chron 21;20) - and it is during his reign that the letter comes - but his reign started before Elijah was translated.

Great reminder, Bob. I spent hours trying to sort out this Jehoram/Joram name game and figured it out once only to forget it the next time I read it. Different accounts use different names for the same king and the same name kinged in in different kingdoms at somewhat different times.I also noticed that the command given to Elijah in Mt. Horeb was not exactly fulfilled by him, but that's another story.

[doug yowell]

The non-SDA Christian message board venue is not a joking matter in many cases -- these guys watch for even the slightest misstep by an SDA while ignoring entire elephant sized missteps if done by non-SDAs.

Another point to remember with non-SDA boards is the "sola scriptura" principle. You cannot defend your beliefs by another other than non-SDA sources PLUS the Bible.

I've never been on a non-SDA site but your advice seems very important.Adventists should never have to defend their beliefs by any non-Biblical source and should be familiar with the history of who we got most our doctrines from.

[Lysimachus]

I've never been on a non-SDA site but your advice seems very important.Adventists should never have to defend their beliefs by any non-Biblical source and should be familiar with the history of who we got most our doctrines from.

Time to start practicing doug. It's the only way we're going to combat the assailments of the false prophet in the last days. Dealing with non-SDA's in non-Adventist forums is excellent practice. Understanding where they are coming from. I've debated in non-SDA forums now most of my online life, and I can tell you, it has really sharpened my faith. It really challenges you to study like never before and to give an answer for the hope that is within you. A good place to get this practice is at www.ChristianForums.com -- in the General Theology section -- the largest Christian forum on the net, and millions of people from every denomination.

[doug yowell]

Time to start practicing doug. It's the only way we're going to combat the assailments of the false prophet in the last days. Dealing with non-SDA's in non-Adventist forums is excellent practice. Understanding where they are coming from. I've debated in non-SDA forums now most of my online life, and I can tell you, it has really sharpened my faith. It really challenges you to study like never before and to give an answer for the hope that is within you. A good place to get this practice is at www.ChristianForums.com -- in the General Theology section -- the largest Christian forum on the net, and millions of people from every denomination.

Thanks Marcos. I've been a little reluctant to look for other forums because of my lack of computer skills but I think I'll explore this place. I became a Christian thru a non-Adventist source and learned most of my basic Bible beliefs outside of the SDA church so I know where most of these people are coming from. I know the automatic prejudices against SDA's that most Christians have.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Christ was slain from the foundation of the world...

Marcos,

Could that be a mistranslation of Rev. 13:8?

Compare with Rev. 17:8. As I see it, both verses refer to " the foundation of the world" as the time when names were (and weren't) written in the Book of Life (or the Book of Life of the Slain Lamb).

What do you think?

(ESV)---Rev. 13:8

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

(KJV and NKJV)--Rev. 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Both translations are correct grammatically and theologically.

The plan for Christ to become the Savior of the world was established even before the Fall of Adam. Sin did not take God by surprise.