cardw Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: One further thing that we must begin to do is to challenge every religious system the world over that claims to possess the ultimate and final truth of God. That is sheer religious propaganda. It is also the seed of an eventual religious imperialism. If I possess the truth as these churches claim, anyone who disagrees with me disagrees with God because I am the only one who understands God perfectly. It is a strange argument but a version of that argument is reflected in the various church claims of having such things as an infallible Pope, an inerrant Bible or that a particular is the "only true church" That irrational mentality leads first to expansionist and conversion activities, then to religious intolerance and it finally expresses itself in religious persecution. That is the fatal religious flaw that drives so much of the religious anger in our world today. We Christians have spawned more than our fair share of this and we need to own it first and to seek to confront it second. This is a quote from Bishop Spong. I think he hits the nail on the head with this. If you need evidence all you have to do is read the history of the Christian church. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: The difference IS you post from what you feel, I post with documentation the truth whether the deceived ones takes heed or not. I post documentation. You just don't read it. The documentation that Jesus puts forth is fruit. When I see the fruit I see rotten fruit. Do you have a perfected character? Is your belief changing your life? Are you becoming more loving, more compassionate, and interested in bringing healing to others? Quote: I don't mind laying the ax at the root of the tree since I have sat in Adventist churches for 40 years see as the solution to a worthless tree clumbering the ground pliable Aarons using nail clipper on the branches. I don't look to a church for healing. I am not interested in pruning, since that is God's job. You are playing god by trying to cleanse the church and passing judgment. I also see that you have a web page that is some sort of ministry. How is that going? Are people's lives being changed? What kind of fruit are you producing? Do the people that come to you love each other? Are you bringing freedom and healing to those around you? Are the fruits of the spirit abundant and overflowing? Unless something along that order is happening you are not tapped into the Spirit of God. Those are the things I observe when people are teaching and practicing truth. They get results. No results, no Spirit. Its very simple documentation. Your way requires pages of mental gymnastics to prove, since you have no real life evidence. Quote: When you finish shaving & come up to speed, get back with me for some substance. Wow, this is really some great documentation you have here. LOL It makes me want to go right out and study what Ellen White has to say so I can post witty come backs just like you. LOL Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: It makes me want to go right out and study what Ellen White has to say so I can post witty come backs just like you. LOL Richard Well, here's something for Ed (and other legalists): When the spirit of the law is revealed: “Sin will appear exceedingly sinful...There is no longer self-righteousness, self-esteem, self-honor. Self-security is gone. Deep conviction of sin and self-loathing is the result, and the soul in its desperate sense of peril lays hold on the blood of the Lamb of God [Christ's life laid down in death] [:"red"]as his only remedy[/].” --Lt 51, 1888. (HC 140.) Did Paul brag about his character...his law keeping, or did he "loath" his sinfulness? Hmmm...let's see: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am [present tense] chief. KJV "Wretched man that I am!" Nuff said.... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: The conservatives among us have taken Mrs. White out of context on this point and have built a whole theology that Mrs. Whtie fought against during her life. I appreciate the spirit of your post, but I have not found evidence that Ellen White systematically fought the misuse of her writings. She makes some weak attempts when it became politically expedient. She promoted the publication of the Testimonies and these contain some of the worst stuff. If she really wanted her writings to be used in a healing way, she would have systematically edited a lot of stuff out of the Testimonies and other collections of her writings. Quote: Richard, you have fallen into the trap of believing that those who missapply Mrs. White here are correct. Mrs. White did indeed say much on the topic (as seen in the massive quotaions from Mrs. White that those who missapply her have compiled and can fill pages with.) But Mrs. White's context is that we need to take our belief in Christ seriously. We need to be self critics (which is taught in different modern psychologies and philosophies such as reality therapy, cognative therapy, aesthetic realism and others)and to look to Jesus and care for others, be interested in Bible Study. Ellen White used shame to motivate people. Her statements often include severe punishments, abandonment by God, and self defeating phrases such as, "if only we would." I don't need those such as Ed to tell me what Ellen White says, I have read most of what she has written several times as a believer of her. The fruit in my life was almost fatal. I'm sure you have worked it out for yourself and I'm not going to tell you how to order your spiritual path. But, for me, Ellen White has been one of the most destructive forces in my life. I have also observed its debilitating effect in other's lives. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Richard I like my assurances which are based on facts and I stand secure in the strength of the Mighty One. When you get wore out from grasping at straws & treading water, look around as I have thrown much that floats in you area that will hold your body weight. Idn't it great to live in America with all these options to decide as we please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: Richard I like my assurances which are based on facts and I stand secure in the strength of the Mighty One. What facts? The fact that you didn't even answer one of my questions? Quote: When you get wore out from grasping at straws & treading water, look around as I have thrown much that floats in you area that will hold your body weight. This is just smoke and mirrors. I generally try and stay away from floaters. Quote: Idn't it great to live in America with all these options to decide as we please? Yeah, its great. And your point is? Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Richard said. "Yeah, its great. And your point is?" ======================== My points have all been made in the endtime event section over the years and I might say that they are still standung tall.[unrefuted] For a lack of real partipation from forum members in that section I do frequent other places where there is a dark county needing light. So stay tuned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: My points have all been made in the endtime event section over the years and I might say that they are still standung tall.[unrefuted] The future is not here yet. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted May 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: Quote: I've given you some sources for my post. Now it's up to you to defend your criticism by going to these sources and cretiqueing them. I hope that you won't just answer with a lame excuse for not doing this. Lame excuse? No...Ellen White is not my Pope....I quote her good stuff. There's legalistic stuff too.... Bottom line we must use the Bible. If we are justified by our works, then please tell me at what point we are good enough to enter heaven? Yes? Robert, Robert, Robert...wasn't I right when I guessed that you would come up with some lame excuse to avoid giving support for your views? May I refresh your memory that I did not use Ellen White as a source, and I do not use her as a source except for as a source for her philosophy and teachings. My sources were archaeological and linguistic studies into the scriptures. Most of these studies are not even made by Adventists, much less Ellen White. Also, where on earth do I say that we are justified by works and need to reach some level to be good enough? My understanding of what the Bible and Mrs. White teach about hell does not have room for any works, and I'm accusing you of having a list of works where you have to say the proper words about Jesus and give a history lesson of the cross to be saved, while my understanding is that Jesus loves us, all of us, and if we are responding instead of rejecting his love, we will be saved. Now of course by beholding the one we love we become changed (and this is why I made the reference to the studies into the philosophy of Ellen White in Sanctuary and the Atonment)but Heaven and Hell is that we see Jesus in person, and seeing him will either be heaven or hell for us depending on if we yeald to the drawing power of his beauty and irristible grace, or hell if we resist the desire to run to him. So with Waldo, just because he had some questions that causes him to lable himself as an agnostic, does not mean that when he sees Jesus in person that he wouldn't yeald to the power of irresistable grace and Jesus' beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Can not you folks see that EGW's writings should never be considered more than her opinion at that time they were written by her, or by her book and article assistant writers? They are 'pastoral', they are like hundreds of other Christian writers----they are NOT Canonical in nature or authority!! Therefore they are ONLY 'pastoral' and the quicker everybody learns that the quicker will all this chatter and bad feelings and disagreements moderate. Lots of people have followed 'gurus' through the centuries. The Bible and it alone is the Christian's 'guru'. And, as far as Waldo is concerned.....and this thread---YES, God is the Judge---not any of us!!! However, God came to save sinners and lots of those sinners, judged so by the Law, didn't and don't even know about Jesus. There are 1.5 to 2 billion Christians in this world! There are somewhere near 5 billion more in this world. They are 'creations of God' we say!! Will He reject His creations that have never heard of Him---is not there a law of sorts that is in the hearts of many good men and women who have never had the chance to get to know God and Christ? Didn't Jesus say that treating others by the 'golden rule' constituted complete obedience to 'the Law'---meaning in the heart rather than legally? I think that if there is salvation for anybody---all good men and women will be saved. They may not know about heaven and salvation and Christ until they experience it. That's just my opinion---and if anybody thinks I think I'm right FOR SURE, in any of my opinions, they're wrong. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Ben said. "and if anybody thinks I think I'm right FOR SURE, in any of my opinions, they're wrong." ====================== You got that right FOR SURE!!! Of all these billons that you tell of being saved that are now living, how do you account for the fact that the bible teaches that only 144,000 will be alive to be translated without seen death? Yes the door for those billions is still open to be saved when people accept the offer of Heavens rules. Heaven only takes people that want to go there. Many today "have their reward already" so they don't need nothing or nobody, this place is not for them!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clio Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Man judges on the outward appearance, but Abba and Jesus judge from the heart. Thankfully Abba's thoughts are not our thoughts... no one would be saved. Clio Quote A heart where He alone has first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Quote: Will He reject His creations that have never heard of Him? Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Bob, do you take Paul's comments to apply to "all" gentiles of the world---like primitive peoples of preColumbian Americas, and peoples of far eastern Asia, Australia--primitive Eskimos, etc? I believe God will be 'fair' and considerate of where a man was born and how he was raised. Until 2000 yrs ago nobody knew about Jesus!! Are you absolutely sure that ONLY Noah's family will be saved of all those that lived before the 'flood'? The Bible began to be written many thousands of years ago but this world has obviously been going for a lloonngg time before anybody ever heard of the Bible we know! The Bible we know was written---the OT, that is, for the Jew and not for the gentile---and the NT was written for all men. Its been included in the Bible for only 2005 yrs now. What about all the people in Christ's time in the world that never knew about Him? Paul agrees that they didn't know---for that's why he travelled so much---to tell them. Even today, there are peoples that live and die never knowing about the God of the Bible. Their societies never knew and they didn't have a chance to know. There are texts that tend to cover this subject----like....Christ died for all peoples who believe in Him! Maybe those people believe in Him by a different identity than you and I identify Him. There are good people in this world besides literal Christians!! Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Quote: Are you absolutely sure that ONLY Noah's family will be saved of all those that lived before the 'flood'? You mean at the time of Noah....Perhaps God in his mercy allowed many to go to sleep before the deluge? There was only so much room on that ship.... Quote: The Bible we know was written---the OT, that is, for the Jew and not for the gentile---and the NT was written for all men. Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness.... Quote: There are good people in this world besides literal Christians!! "there is none good but one, that is, God" Matt 19:17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted May 20, 2005 Author Share Posted May 20, 2005 Quote: You mean at the time of Noah....Perhaps God in his mercy allowed many to go to sleep before the deluge? There was only so much room on that ship.... Maybe some of God's people died in the waters of the Flood. What would be wrong with that? God's people die in disasters all the time... /Bevin ps: The world-wide-flood is an extra-biblical myth, of course - but a major local flood can also kill God's people as well as wicked people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Quote: The world-wide-flood is an extra-biblical myth Really? Maybe you are a myth, Bevin! I'll take the Bible over your ego... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Bevin said this. "Maybe some of God's people died in the waters of the Flood. What would be wrong with that? God's people die in disasters all the time... " =============================== No, Gods people are not rebels or disobedient, they were TOLD to get in the boat or DIE!!! But like many today thinking that God will continue to wink at our ignorance forever as He once did, "but NOW commandmeth all men ever where to repent." Act. 17:30 All this kicking & squirming out there, why not do just as God says instead of continually "climbing up some other way" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted May 20, 2005 Author Share Posted May 20, 2005 Ed : read your BIBLE and stop inventing stuff that simply ain't there. /Bevin Ch 6 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. 9 This is the account of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. 11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high 16 Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them." 22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him. Genesis 7 1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." 5 And Noah did all that the LORD commanded him. 6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benherndon Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Please surfers from other religions, please excuse the attitude of some of these posters here. They are extremely self centered, or, so consumned with ego that they are 'right' and nobody else is---they think. Give them pity, please. Robert, we don't know if there have been people occupying areas unknown to the Israelites and other peoples referred to in what we know as the Bible today. We must not assume that all of planet earth was covered with water in the flood of Noah's time. The story is an 'ensample' the Bible says. The purpose of the Bible is to provide mankind who knew of the God of Bible's times that there was going to be a Messiah someday. The New Testament tells about His coming and His teachings and what He represented. We may not know everything about God, the Heavens, and the remotest parts of the world's peoples -- but we as Christians know enough to have faith and hope in life after death. So, let's not get too wound up in thinking we have been fully informed absolutely in every subject. We have been informed enough for salvation, the NT says, but it doesn't say we have been informed of all things that could have been known. Perhaps the purpose of the Bible did not involve fully informing us about every aspect of world history and worldly facts. As far as "the Law" is concerned, the Sabbath, etc---no matter what else is said or who says it, there is extremely little evidence any mankind knew about "the Law" including the Ten Commandments until the Israelites were almost to Mt Sinai area. However, people are similar to animals and all other moving living things--they are born with inborn tendencies, knowledge and reasoning powers whether or not they knew God or the Messiah. From nature makind can see that he, mankind, did not create or invent the world or the universe. Even today the most knowledgable and closest-to-God Christian just doesn't know everything that could be known that impacted the life of all mankind everywhere--especially those far removed. Here we are pretty accurately in a universe the edges of which are currently mathematically thought to be 13 Billion light years in extent. Like Wow! And we think we know all about it and all about its Creator? Sorry, dear friend, if you think that you do know all about that, you have an ego much greater than mine and I suspect you, as I, are woefully ignorant! Soo---going by the Old Testament and the New Testament, Robert, the gentiles did not know anything about "the Law of MOses" and the farther away they were from the Sinai desert the less they knew!! "The Law" was given ONLY to the Jews------- the gentiles got NONE of it. What the gentiles knew by nature/inheritance/genes/etc might well have been incorporated into the "Law of Moses" but the reverse did NOT happen. Both OT and NT say that the gentiles did NOT have "The Law of Moses". Christ via Peter and Paul opened Salvation to all the peoples of the world. It had not happened previously. Stop reading anything else BUT the Bible and you will easily see that I'm telling you the truth. I have given references for this many times. Look them up for yourself. Also, if you find one Biblical text that says the gentiles of the world had "The Law of Moses" give me that text. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Quote: Robert, we don't know if there have been people occupying areas unknown to the Israelites and other peoples referred to in what we know as the Bible today. We must not assume that all of planet earth was covered with water in the flood of Noah's time. Gen 1:6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament (sky) in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. God made the sky and separated the waters which were under the sky from the waters which were above the sky. Clearly there was a sphere of water covering our earth. What happened to all that water? And please don't call the water above the earth "clouds" because a mist was used to water the vegetation (see Genesis 2:4-6) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 Quote: What happened to all that water? Understand that I beliee the Genesis a/c to be figurative, not literal. However, if it is literal, the explanation is obvious - some parts of the oceans got deeper. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 What we have here are 4 non-SDA's who reject much of what SDA's believe, talking about why SDA's are so bad. All of you have hobby horses to ride. If we reject them, then you send us long-winded angry barbs to stoomp us into our rightfull places. I am frustrated and irritated over the way you treat the rest of us here. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted May 22, 2005 Author Share Posted May 22, 2005 Quote: long-winded angry barbs to stoomp us into our rightfull places. I am frustrated and irritated over the way you treat the rest of us here. There is a wide range of beliefs here, held by a wide range of believers - conservative, liberal, and tolerant SDA, ex-SDA, and non-SDA. When I disagree with a particular position that has been given, I try to give simple and clear reasons for my disagreement. There are many SDA positions that I agree with - the state of the dead, the importance of healthful living, salvation through Jesus (not through works), and the general congregational structure for instance. But when a frequent contributor makes a silly statement about where did the water go, then expect me to point out the obvious answer. It is not a put-down of the person, it is simply pointing out that the issue raised is not valid. There are several HUGE issues facing the SDA church. The role of women, the role of science, 1844, and the role of EGW are areas where the denomination has taken positions that are extremely controversial. They are controversial enough to have already cost the denomination millions of members. Yes, they interest me. These are issues that cause non-Christians to declare they will never become christians; and other christians to really rubbish the SDA denomination. That should cause them to interest you also. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 Quote: These are issues that cause non-Christians to declare they will never become christians; For precisely that reason, they interest me also. Seems some don't get it, and rather than wrestle with it, prefer to think anything turning a non-believer off from Christ must be due to the sinfulness of said non-believer and therefore self-validating. Ummm ... Nope. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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