Is the doctrine of the Trinity logically incoherent?

[phkrause]

This is how that verse goes Gibs: Isaiah 44:6 Thus says ADONAI, Isra'el's King and Redeemer, ADONAI-Tzva'ot: "I am the first, and I am the last; besides me there is no God.

A-DO-NAI-Tzva-'ot (Lord of Sabaoth)--Lord of (heaven's) armies, Lord of Hosts, Ro 9:29+

E-lo-him-God; e-lo-him means "gods" and "judges." Yeshua uses all three meanings in his wordplay at Yn 10:33-36

This verse doesn't mention Elohim, per Messianic Jewish scholars.

[Gibs]

PK,

There does remain the fact Yahweh of Himself sent out of Himself our Redeemer the equal and of the same substance and It has to be Spirit as Jesus tells us that is what God is. Then at that time on we would have God, Yahweh being elohim but actually one as Yahshua would be a projection of Himself. This proves out from Jesus's own statement to Philip, "you've seen me you have seen the Father".

And this one, Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Time wise Yahshua was not the first, but He could state that because the Father in Him is the First.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

So this statement by Jesus settles it, Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one

Not in purpose and etc. only but in fact "substance".

And sure enough, God with us in a body of Flesh as our own,

Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

He, Jesus has revealed to us about Himself and the Father if we will receive it.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

Sky,

The Holy Spirit is a person for sure, yes the very person of YHWH, there is just one person, one God.

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Jesus tells us and He ought to know, Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Well said! God is Spirit and he is omnipresent. Whenever he manifested his presence in a visible manner, the Bible used "The angel of the Lord" expression; but when God's presence was felt but unseen, the Holy Spirit phrase was used.

[Nic Samojluk]

If Adventists hold to the notion that a truth is illogical, then we just gave our enemies ammo to believe in an UNTOLD number of illogical fallacies riddled throughout their perfidious ideological teachings, such as Dispensationalism.

So this sentence here does not sit well with my stomach, at all. Such a notion will disarm you against the enemies of God's people. The beauty of the Adventist message is that it "makes sense", while much of Evangelical and Catholic teaching does "not make sense".

The same line of reasoning you just used is the line of reasoning the evangelicals use to push their "eternal torment" teaching, that although it doesn't make sense to burn people for eternity, we must just trust that it is the truth.

It makes no sense for a just and loving God to punish the wicked for as long as He shall last.

Thus, if it doesn't make sense, it's time to go back to the drawing board.

Are you willing to give the evangelical world ammunition for subscribing to their erroneous teachings?

Well said, brother!

[Nic Samojluk]

lOGIC is far over rated. At least with these sin affected and degraded minds. My mind aint worth a hill of beans.

Yet you keep using it and you expect us to believe you!

[Nic Samojluk]

Lu 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Yes, there is one God--God the Father--and this God has a Son--Jesus Christ. God is Spirit--his presence is felt but not seen. God manifested himself through his Son until he ascended to heaven. Since then, his presence is felt, but not seen. He lives in me and you and in every one who has accepted him.

The Holy Spirit is God's spiritual and unseen presence in the world and in us. God also manifests his presence through his angels, who are also Spirits--felt but unseen. The Holy Spirit is not a third person, but rather God's invisible presence felt by his children and by nature.

[Gibs]

Ah, The Mind,

Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

And Here Is The Answer,

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“1) There is only "one God." (This "one" is not the mathematical "1" but the "one" of unity, just as Adam and Eve were "one flesh" even though they are two distinct persons.)

2) The Father is God.

3) Christ is God.

4) The Holy Spirit is God.”

How can you affirm that there is only “one God” and then refer to three Gods in the next sentence? My Bible teaches that there is only one God—God the Father—and there is God’s Son. The Holy Spirit cannot be a third God, but rather the invisible presence of God or his Son manifested in an invisible manner.

“Christ is not one and the same Person as the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is Christ's personal representative, "another paraclate" of the same kind as Christ was.”

I suspect that you are misreading John 14:

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus was talking about himself in the third person—a common practice by Jesus. He said: “he lives with you.” Who was living with them? Jesus! And he added: “and [he] will be in you.” Who would live in them? Jesus. Then he further clarified this by adding: “18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” Who would come back to them? Jesus himself—not in a physical and visible manner, but in a spiritually invisible way.

“The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead.”

You cannot manufacture the doctrine of the Trinity out of John 14!

“Ellen White defines the "eternal Godhead" as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and she makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is able to feel pity and to make decisions, etc. CH 222.”

Biblical doctrine must be firmly rooted in God’s word—not on Ellen White’s writings! Ellen insisted that we go to the Bible in our search for doctrinal truth.

“There's really no reason to make it any more complex than that.’

Right! Catholics made this quite complex. We should reject what they invented as a result of their philosophical speculation.

[Gordon1]

I believe that they rejected the Nicea doctrine and also rejected the Arius doctrine (teaches that God's son was created).

Dr W, I don't believe Arius taught that Christ was created,

but this notion has been pinned upon him to discredit his position as unBiblical.

Arius appears to be a Protestant who relied upon the Scripture evidence,

that Christ was brought forth of the Father in the days of eternity.

[Gibs]

On God the Holy Spirit. He is proclaimed to be seven spirits,

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Re 3:1 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Seven is a signature of God, completness totally.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

skyblue888 wrote:

"There are Three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Spirit; and these Three are one." 1 John 5:7.

Have you ever read the NIV note regarding this passage of Sripture?

Footnotes:

a 7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

Did you know that no serious theologian uses this text to support the Trinity doctrine?

[Gerr]

The Holy Spirit is not a third person, but rather God's invisible presence felt by his children and by nature.

Huh? How then do you define a "person?"

[Gibs]

Gerry, then how do you define the "seven Spirits of God" here then.

Re 3:1 ¶ And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

The "fire" goes forth from Him His Spirit, Life in completeness.

Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Spirit = pneuma, life,

4151. pneuma

Search for G4151 in KJVSL

pneuma pneuma pnyoo'-mah

from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.

See Greek 4154

See Greek 5590

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

I believe that they rejected the Nicea doctrine and also rejected the Arius doctrine (teaches that God's son was created).

Dr W, I don't believe Arius taught that Christ was created,

but this notion has been pinned upon him to discredit his position as unBiblical.

Arius appears to be a Protestant who relied upon the Scripture evidence,

that Christ was brought forth of the Father in the days of eternity.

DEPOSITION OF ARIUS

3. Now when Arius and his fellows made these assertions, and shamelessly avowed them, we being assembled with the Bishops of Egypt and Libya, nearly a hundred in number, anathematized both them and their followers. But Eusebius and his fellows admitted them to communion, being desirous to mingle falsehood with the truth, and impiety with piety. But they will not be able to do so, for the truth must prevail; neither is there any “communion of light with darkness,” nor any “concord of Christ with Belial. ”For who ever heard such assertions before ? Or who that hears them now is not astonished and does not stop his ears lest they should be defiled with such language? Who that has heard the words of John, “In the beginning was the Word John 1:1,” will not denounce the saying of these men, that “there was a time when He was not?” Or who that has heard in the Gospel, “the Only-begotten Son,” and “by Him were all things made ,” will not detest their declaration that He is “one of the things that were made.” For how can He be one of those things which were made by Himself? Or how can He be the Only-begotten, when, according to them, He is counted as one among the rest, since He is Himself a creature and a work? And how can He be “made of things that were not,” when the Father says, “My heart has uttered a good Word,” and “Out of the womb I have begotten You before the morning star ?” Or again, how is He “unlike in substance to the Father,” seeing He is the perfect “image” and “brightness Hebrews 1:3 ”of the Father, and that He says, “He that has seen Me has seen the Father ?” And if the Son is the “Word” and “Wisdom” of God, how was there “a time when He was not?” It is the same as if they should say that God was once without Word and without Wisdom. And how is He “subject to change and variation,” Who says, by Himself, “I am in the Father, and the Father in Me ,” and “I and the Father are One ;” and by the Prophet, “Behold Me, for I am, and I change not ?” For although one may refer this expression to the Father, yet it may now be more aptly spoken of the Word, viz., that though He has been made man, He has not changed; but as the Apostle has said, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for ever.” And who can have persuaded them to say, that He was made for us, whereas Paul writes, “for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things ?”

[skyblue888]

If the Holy Spirit is not a Person, then what is He? a mere impersonal essence?

[Gibs]

Sky, we let Jesus answer,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

What do you call something/someone who can: speak, know, feel, be grieved, do, act as an intercessor or lawyer? A PERSON!!!

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“We believe that God is Three divine Persons, or three divine Beings, who have one and the same essence, or substance. These are co-equal and co-eternal.”

Can you cite a text from the Bible in support of your “co-equal” claim?

[Nic Samojluk]

John317 wrote:

“Sure, there are some verses which by themselves seem to indicate that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person; but to draw this conclusion, one must dismiss many clear Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is a distinct divine Person and "the Third Person of the Godhead,"

Can you cite those “clear Scriptures” for us?

“You've said that the Trinity makes no sense, but then you accept a view that requires you to make nonsense of such verses as Acts 1: 2, which teaches that before He went back to heaven, Jesus Christ "gave commandments to His disciples through the Holy Spirit." Now, if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person, this verse would mean that Jesus Christ gave commandments through Jesus Christ.”

The Bible talks about God’s Spirit and about the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Such references I interpret to mean the invisible presence and influence of God the Father and of Jesus Christ. The reference found Acts 1:2 can easily be explained: It was the invisible presence and influence generated by either God the Father or Jesus Christ.

[Lysimachus]

Biblical doctrine must be firmly rooted in God’s word—not on Ellen White’s writings! Ellen insisted that we go to the Bible in our search for doctrinal truth.

But we as Adventists have every right to quote Ellen White to each other, as the purpose of the Spirit of Prophecy is to prevent the Church from falling into false doctrine.

Since Ellen White does not contradict the Bible Nic, and was a true prophet of God, you are required to also prove your position on the Godhead from her writings when speaking to another Adventist. Since she does not contradict the Bible, and only sheds light upon the Bible, then you need to explain what she means by the statements that John is providing, and you need to take the time to show what Ellen White's true position was on the Godhead by taking in the totality of her writings.

Scriptures of course must be the foundation, but we are living in the last days when the Spirit of Prophecy is necessary to fine-tune our understanding of the Scriptures, and this is precisely what Ephesians 4:11-16 emphasizes.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

The Holy Spirit is not a third person, but rather God's invisible presence felt by his children and by nature.

Huh? How then do you define a "person?"

Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person?

[Lysimachus]

Where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit is a person?

Weak argument. Where in the Bible does it say, in plain words, "Jesus is a person"? Or "God the Father is a person?"

This is not very intelligent dialogue on your part.

[Nic Samojluk]

If the Holy Spirit is not a Person, then what is He? a mere impersonal essence?

The Holy Spirit is God's invisible presence and influence on those who have accepted Jesus Christ.

[Nic Samojluk]

What do you call something/someone who can: speak, know, feel, be grieved, do, act as an intercessor or lawyer? A PERSON!!!

Yes, God is a person! The Bible talks about God's Spirit and about our spirit. If God's Spirit is another person, then our spirit is also another person. Do we accept this Catholic view of human nature?

[Lysimachus]

skyblue888 wrote:

"There are Three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word (Christ), and the Holy Spirit; and these Three are one." 1 John 5:7.

Have you ever read the NIV note regarding this passage of Sripture?

Footnotes:

a 7,8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

Did you know that no serious theologian uses this text to support the Trinity doctrine?

And lo, Nic comes along and thinks he's offered the conclusion to this long-winded debate!

Nic, seriously. Theologians have been debating this for centuries, and none have reached an ultimatum yet. There is no proof whatsoever that 1 John 5:7 was added. It is only speculated based on the fact that they can't find it in earlier manuscripts.

Do a google search, and you will find ENDLESS debates on this passage.

When Ellen White said, "There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ." (Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)) -- there is no doubt she is alluding to 1 John 5:7.