Restaurants on Sabbath?

[Guest]

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Ed says, "Please tell me what I am missing here?"

As gently as possible-----you are missing knowledge of the NT teachings, you are loading 'the writings' with nearly Canonical importance, and you are lacking age and compassion for the changes that occur with age, and you're being too judgmental about how others should follow Adventist 'rules' and 'teachings' that just might not be equivalent to real basics regarding salvation.

I am NOT judging here---YOU asked the question 'what am I missing?'---remember?

Ben

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Yes Ben I "remember exactly what I asked, and your solution for my delima wasn't a loving act at all, sorry try again. Adventism is saturated with that brand of love by sweeping problems under the rug. It's a healthy thing to turn one's mattress once a month and to filp them rugs when company are stumbling over the lumps and ending up with nose bled. The solution is not Band-aids, clear away the rubbish.

[Guest]

Greg all the rules I am authorized to bring up, Adventism at one time knew. Please show me one of my rules where I can weed this cursed thing out.

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I know everyone wants to be helpful to Shane, but he is a grown boy, let's see how he answers this question for himself.

[Gerr]

I don't go on business travels on Sab. E.g. I might go say to Miami for a CME meeting or vacation and arrive there on Fri.

Gerry

[Ron Lambert]

When Jesus referred to the ox in the ditch, He affirmed the principle that it is appropriate to minister to life and necessity on the Sabbath. If you are a farmer, you must feed and tend to your animals every day. We have long recognized that medical work, especially in the Emergency Room or in ICU are essential ministering to life and necessity. So is food preparation. We want to simplify food preparation as much as we can on Sabbath, but since the true keeping of the Sabbath is shown in Isaiah 58 to consisit of ministering to the needs of others, it is not wrong to eat out or to prepare food on the Sabbath, at least not automatically.

[Taylor]

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Taylor said this. "BTW I am just curious. Are you a subscriber to Hope International's magazine? They are well meaning but often critical."

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No I am not, but the magazine has showed up on my door step [free] with the same lable sticker that comes from IIW/VOP or from the GC. They are all in the same camp and I hope that Hope International is well meaning and are only deceived with the error they teach.

And thank you so much for being concerened about me, you are right of course! But so am I or I would never have said it.

On that same page written 102 years ago the "spec sheet" says "that I am to give this instruction [to discard milk,eggs & cheese] as though it were bible instruction". Isn't there a bible verse that says. "Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"

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They might have the same looking label, but trust me, they are not from the same source!! IIW and the GC would not condone Hope nor would Hope INternational condone them. They are on opposite poles.

You will never be my enemy, so don't worry about that. I have no enemies...at least not any I am aware of. I truely care about people for who they are and enjoy their differences.

I think the difference here is that just because something is truth doesn't mean it has to be used as a frying pan smashing on someone's head. There is no point in doing that and then expecting them to listen. That is why I would never walk up to a catholic neighbor and say something deragatory about the pope. It is self-defeating. There is a time and place for truth, but it isn't always at the "get go". And if it isn't a salvation issue why be so adamate. The health laws were given for our health, the health message for our health, not to figure out who is saved and who is lost. (and NO EGW is not equal with the Bible. She is a lesser light, by her own admission. That doesn't deminish her role, and in my opinion she demonstrated profetic gifts..but there is a difference between her writings and the Bible). Jesus even didn't give all truth to every listener every time. It would have been overwhelming to them.

There is a HuGE difference between trying to keep the Sabbath holy (a good thing) and eating eggs in order to avoid eating out...if that is what you have. Give credit where it is due. Shane was simply trying to make a point about keeping the Sabbath, not about diet.

And yes I am well aware that he is a grown man. I have never met him personally and have no reason to stick up for him other than he is another human being on this road of life, who I think should be treated with kindness, just as you should be and I should be. Truth without kindess, deminishes it's worth. IMHO

Take care.

Taylor

[Guest]

Well Taylor I guess we will just have to differ then, because I believe there is no such thing as "particial inspiration" as many people suggest about Ellen White writings. She had no right to say that she was a lesser light to the bible, who does she think she is to boast of that? Brother if you look at those quotes carefull you will see that both her & the bible were "lesser light" to lead to that Greater Light = Jesus. She was just as inspired as Peter, James or John. Look again at those statments that the hirling shepherds haven't doctored and you will see what I said is true.

Now about Hope International being opposed to the main structure, no that is not true, Ron Spear was/is only a diversion. He has had ankle bracelets on since day one after leaving 25 years with the Review.

Sorry for you to find out this way, but like you say "time is short". I address this very issue on 2 CD, called "The Historic Adventist are encouraged to run-but cannot hide"

They are yours for the asking.

[Taylor]

The Ron Spear that I heard preach a number of years ago was rather harsh and in my opinion, harshness does not equal truth, and in fact diminishes it. Hence I do not choose to read their magazine or listen to others from places like Hartland or the previous John Osborne (Which I know he has returned to the SDA church and is now a pastor in the very church he used to strongly criticize.) Lighting a candle is far more effective than cursing the darkness. There will always be darkness as long as we live on this earth, so our comission is to go out and win souls for Jesus, not endless squables.

I believe in EGW. She was inspired but she is not part of the cannon and never even wanted to be called a prophet. The Bible comes first, EGW second. THat is the way I have understood it all the way and not just from what others have told me but from the study I have done.

I am a 4th generation SDA, 3rd generaion missionary, and my father is a minister. (I tell you this, not as some claim to fame, as it certainly isn't but to tell you I am well rooted in the SDA church and love it's message. To many I would be a conservative, probably, but apparently to you I am quite liberal. That is ok, and I don't mind, becuase in my opinion I don't really care for either label. I would rather be known as someone who loves the Bible, the gospel, the distinctive message we are priviledged to share and who loves mission work.) I have read many if not all of her books, but there is a difference in the "sacred quality" between her writings and the Bible. IMHO. All SDA doctrine can be proved from the Bible and the Bible only and if it can't it doesn't belong in our church. EGW's writings are an expansion, a helping to understand the whys behind the stories, to help us fall in love with Jesus, but they are not what we base our doctine on. I am sure this statement might be missinterpreted as well. It is hard to convey feelings, convictions etc over the internet.

Even if she was equal with the Bible, diet issues such as eggs are not salvation issues.

I respect you and your opinion, but I also disgree with some of what you have said. But that doesn't make you any less valuable and I am glad you are here. We all have room to grow!

The best news of all is that Jesus is coming soon! That is something I get excited about sharing!

Edited by me to add some more information and explanation.

[Dr. Shane]

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Unfortuanetly we all don't live in your "perfect world".

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Actually we do all live in the same world and it is not perfect. However if we look in the mirror we will discover that we do have the power to make the world a better place.

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I don't think it is as cut and dry as you want it to be.

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This subject has nothing to do with me. I am not the focus of this debate. The issue is what the Bible says and what it doesn't say. Are we to have our manservants and maidservants work or are they to rest too? Let's focus on what the Bible says and not our thoughts, feelings and ideas.

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Instead of trying to get everyone to live up to what your standards

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Again, I am not the focus of this thread nor are my standards. The discussion is about Biblical standards and what the Bible says.

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maybe we should allow God's Holy Spirit to move upon the heart.

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And don't we do that by sharing the Word of God? Shouldn't our focus be on the Word of God and not our feelings and ideas?

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We spend so much time beating each other up because we don't live up to the "standards"

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You need to speak for yourself. I don't beat anyone up. I share the Word of God. If any chastising happens it is the Word of God doing it, not me.

Let us not forget that for many of us, we can fast on Sabbath. Some cannot because of health issues but for most Christians, fasting is an option. Although I would not encourage this for families with young children <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Nicodema]

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... in my opinion, harshness does not equal truth, and in fact diminishes it. ... Lighting a candle is far more effective than cursing the darkness. There will always be darkness as long as we live on this earth, so our comission is to go out and win souls for Jesus, not endless squabbles.

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Taylor, I like your perspective here. I think it's a healthy and well-focused one.

Just wanted to say so.

Nico

[Taylor]

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... in my opinion, harshness does not equal truth, and in fact diminishes it. ... Lighting a candle is far more effective than cursing the darkness. There will always be darkness as long as we live on this earth, so our comission is to go out and win souls for Jesus, not endless squabbles.

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Taylor, I like your perspective here. I think it's a healthy and well-focused one.

Just wanted to say so.

Nico

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Why thank you Nico. That was very kind of you!

Taylor

[Guest]

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I share the Word of God. If any chastising happens it is the Word of God doing it, not me.

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What a total cop-out! How about a little less 'piousness'?

Do you ever listen to yourself?

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But brother, he is always there when needed, look at his good qualities, he very good at answering ONLY the question that make him look good and side stepping others with such perfect world class.

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Taylor thanks for your words, also your good advice, just don't ever betray your trust to your SDA roots, but don't negelect to walk in present truth either, as some of the Adventist pioneers of OUR roots were just prisoner of time. Heavens children are not totally dependent on another generation teachings, remember "In every age there is A NEW DEVELOPMENT of truth, a message of God to that generation. The old truth are all essential; NEW TRUTH is not independant of the old, but an unfolding of it." COL 127

There are many/many/many truths in the word of God but, what the truth seekers needs NOW is present truth.

[Dr. Shane]

The problem is those that go to extreames. And that seems to be most of us. While there is a time to strongly rebuke someone, IMO it is a rare occation. In my lifetime I have only had to do it once and a couple years afterwards the young man came to me and thanked me that I cared enough. It should pain us to show another the error in their way. I hate showing others, in the Word, the error in their ways. Especially since I am no shining example of righteous living myself. But if I love their soul and long for their salvation, it is incumbant upon me to do so - but always with the Word of God and prayer. My opinion doesn't matter. My thoughts and ideas don't matter. All that matters is the Word of God. And God withholds nothing good from us. Everything He requires of us is for our own good. That includes keeping the Sabbath as He commanded.

[Taylor]

Very well put Shane! I couldn't agree more.

Taylor

[Guest]

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I share the Word of God. If any chastising happens it is the Word of God doing it, not me.

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What a total cop-out! How about a little less 'piousness'?

Do you ever listen to yourself?

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But brother, he is always there when needed, look at his good qualities, he very good at answering ONLY the question that make him look good and side stepping others with such perfect world class.

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I lost my notes of a court case that said words like this. "When a answer is required and NONE GIVEN or mis- information is given it is self evident of fraud."

[Nicodema]

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I lost my notes of a court case that said words like this. "When a answer is required and NONE GIVEN or mis- information is given it is self evident of fraud."

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What about when Jesus was questioned at His trial and "answered them not a word"? That certainly was not evidence of fraud on His part.

[Guest]

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This is one of the catagory of questions that is an individual choice. It is between the person, and God. It really is not for us to say. It is not for us to judge another.

Yes, Shane's perfect world does not exist for some. Some may be able to follow his counsel. But, for others, that is impossible.

I sometimes ask: Why do we bring up questions such as these? People who ask them, often have decided the answere for themselves, already. As such, I suspect they are either just attempting to get a heated discussion going, or to impose their approach on others. But, is there really anyone here who is honestly asking the question for themself, so that they can understand?

NOTE: I have forgotten who began this thread. So, I am not directing any comment to any specific person.

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Well I need to ask a direct question to Shane and the "perfect world" he tells about as it it will apply to many posters/readers here. He mentioned eggs [chicken droppings] & cheese. He professes to believe in the SOP and he knows that counsel was given in 1903 "that soon there would be no safety in using milk, eggs & cheese" [7T 135] yet he is suggestion it is still safe to uses these items 102 years later by packing them in a lunch bag. Please tell me what I am missing here? With him working in construction and the specifaction book is bigger than a Los Angeles phone book and NO ONE in construction would dare to disregard anything that written there by the engineers. You either do as the enigneers say or start selling vaccum cleaner from door to door. That just the way it works "in a perfect world".Is information from heaven to be less honored that moral mans speck sheet??? I've got a bald spot on my head now from sctatching it, help me out here!!!

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The difference is Nico, Jesus never said anything to be ashamed of that He couldn't answer. But my simple questions asked above was done so to see if a person IS ASHAMED of a few of their words. After all this is a Adventist forum and from a member that proffesses a belief in the SOP.

But I can understand why silence still continues as one that has their ear tothe ground.

[LifeHiscost]

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I lost my notes of a court case that said words like this. "When a answer is >>required<< and NONE GIVEN or mis- information is given it is self evident of fraud."

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What about when Jesus was questioned at His trial and "answered them not a word"? That certainly was not evidence of fraud on His part.

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Maybe the key word is located in >> <<. Certainly Jesus would not have remained silent if He knew an answer were required. I speak not of what men felt was required, but what Jesus knew to be required to fulfill all righteousness.

[:"red"] "But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him." [/] Matt 3:15 NASB

[Guest]

Yes the story I heard HMS Richards Sr. tell applies here today, again & AGAIN, it goes like this. "A young couple ran away and got married. After about 4 days they needed to return to their homes and their jobs. There was a long silence between them as they drove along, then the woman said, you won't tell anyone now will you??? He said, no I am just ashamed as what you are."

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What a way to start a marriage in being ashamed of the one you are legally married to. But I see the same thing here of the forum with people that are ashamed of their belief system. I think it's time that people STAND up for something, or they will end up FALLING for everthing.

[Nicodema]

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But I see the same thing here of the forum with people that are ashamed of their belief system. I think it's time that people STAND up for something, or they will end up FALLING for everthing.

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I'm not ashamed of my belief system. I'm ashamed to be stuck with such a $#!&&^ self that is such a lousy representative of what I believe in.

Major difference.

[Guest]

Nico you are now in a position to be helped by heaven, on page 300 of DA there are 3 thing that stand in the way of the Lord helping you, please find these and then claim the promises. With you being "convinced of your own weakness" is ONE OF THE STEPS!!! After you find the other two on this page are words like this "Then The Lord..."

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"The worldling may pronounce this sorrow a weakness; but it is the strength which binds the penitent to the Infinite One with links that cannot be broken. It shows that the angels of God are bringing back to the soul the graces that were lost through hardness of heart and transgression. The tears of the penitent are only the raindrops that precede the sunshine of holiness. This sorrow heralds a joy which will be a living fountain in the soul. "Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God;" "and I will not cause Mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the Lord." Jer. 3:13, 12. "Unto them that mourn in Zion," He has appointed to give

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"beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness." Isa. 61:3. {DA 300.4}

[Guest]

What does the bible say about this?

[Guest]

JimBob the class has moved way beyond milktoast to solid food on this thread so you may need to chew awhile before saying, "over the lips & past the gums, look out stomach here it comes". Even chicken dropping were considered as food 102 years after the prophet SDA professed to believe in said there would come a time that there would be no safety in using milk, eggs & cheese. What a grand time to be living& to be observing adult behaviour.

[Nicodema]

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Nico you are now in a position to be helped by heaven, on page 300 of DA there are 3 thing that stand in the way of the Lord helping you, please find these and then claim the promises. With you being "convinced of your own weakness" is ONE OF THE STEPS!!! After you find the other two on this page are words like this "Then The Lord..."

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I will be sure to read that section. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

I need all the help from heaven I can get!

[Guest]

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Nico you are now in a position to be helped by heaven, on page 300 of DA there are 3 thing that stand in the way of the Lord helping you, please find these and then claim the promises. With you being "convinced of your own weakness" is ONE OF THE STEPS!!! After you find the other two on this page are words like this "Then The Lord..."

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I will be sure to read that section. Thanks for pointing this out to me.

I need all the help from heaven I can get!

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Nico you can rest ashured that if you circle those three things after you read these words ["the Lord can do nothing for the recovery of man UNTIL"] you will NEVER need any counsel from any man again.

Mans ways to purify his drinking water is to put a fresh coat of paint on the pump handle, heaven ways fixes it RIGHT the first time.