Judaism

[teresaq]

Is Judaism a true religion, or was it a temporary fix, designed to meet a specific people where they were at spiritually?

A temporary fix designed to introduce the people to the true religion?

[phkrause]

I don't believe that for one minute. But if that were true than Christianity would be a patch to that fix! Or since there are so many demoninations from Judism, lots of little patches!!

[teresaq]

It seems to me that there is a Jewish people, nationalism so to speak, and a Jewish religion, as it were. One could be both or either. Converts could join the religion, but not be Jewish by birth. According to the bible, one could be Jewish, or a descendant of Abraham, by birth, but not in religion.

(It isn't my intention to offend, PK, just asking honest questions, or "realizing" perhaps.)

A discussion came up elsewhere, in addition to other thoughts, that triggered this particular one. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob did not have, nor needed, all the ceremonies and rites that were instituted at Sinai. From Adam down til Sinai all that was not needed to keep the righteous in line. All Adam and Eve and posterity were given was the simple sacrifice. Even that pointed to a coming Savior and as a reminder that sin kills. That is all there was.

But at Sinai God didn't have a pure people. How to not end up allowing this mixed multitude to be wiped out was the problem. They kinda didn't get it, except for a very few. How to get through to them so that they could follow in Abraham's footsteps and be a witness to the world.

The sanctuary system and all the ceremonies and rites to the rescue. (Thank God, cause I think not a few of us are just as needy in that area as they were. I am anyway.) What did all that point to? Once that Messiah came what more need was there for all that?

But the Jewish people preferred holding onto their rites and ceremonies, rather than become followers of what, the Person, those rites and ceremonies pointed to, Jesus.

So how could Judaism not be a "fix"? A temporary fix to a problem? Nor is this a question of Judaism versus "Christianity", or "Christianity" being superior to Judaism. The vast majority of we self-proclaimed Christians aren't any such thing.

To be Christian means to be Christlike, just like Jesus in mind and character.

If the Jewish people had accepted Jesus as their Messiah wouldn't the "religion", the ceremonies and rites, have then changed by necessity since it was based on Christ?

[phkrause]

Without being able to actually do quotes, as this thread is formatted, its hard to answer your questions, but will give it a try.

First if you are born a Jew, you are part of a religion and nation. So no matter where you live/born, Australia, US, Canada, Africa, etc., you are a citizen of Israel automatically. There's no separating the two.

Secondly, being a Jew, born or converted, you are a religion. Being Jewish is a religion and a nationality, period.

It seems very obvious to me that the reason Abraham, Jacob, etc., didn't have or needed all the ceremonies, is because they hadn't been in captivity for 490 years. when they came out of captivity god needed to reaquint(sp) the Israelites with what there purpose was.

[teresaq]

If being born a Jew automatically meant a "religion", there would be no such term as "secular Jew".

In addition to the ceremonies and rites instituted by God which were types, is also the continuing tradition of the Fathers, or Rabbis. Does all that together constitute Judaism? Even more important what part is biblical? What part does one keep, what part does one discard if they want to follow Jesus. And/or be an SDA, Baptist, etc.?

If a Jewish person is still a Jew in religion, how could they possibly be any other religion also? It is possible if any particular Jew considered himself a national Jew, otherwise there is an attempting to blend two religions somehow. The Baptist Jew, if there is such a thing, would be trying to blend the Jewish religion with the Baptist understanding of scripture. What goes? Is there now another hybrid religion?

It seems to me that the disciples understood that. They were Jews by birth, nationality, but no longer by religion, because they now accepted Christ. They knew how to separate the real from the tradition...

Yet all who accept Christ are now "Jews" or Israelites and children of Abraham...

A w ee bit complicated, yet probably quite simple. And a clumsy attempt at trying to understand.

[phkrause]

Its not "meant!" It is, no matter what anyone says. As far as "secular Jew" that's not any different than secular SDA, secular catholic, etc., etc.

Being that Jews, except Messianic Jews, don't believe in Jesus, I'd say yes it constitutes Judaism to them.

All the things written in the Bible are Biblical? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean? Pretty much all Jews follow the Bible, the only thing that they do that's really extra is how they've added how to keep the Sabbath, or what to do and not do. Sound familiar.

There is no such thing as a Baptist Jew, etc. The Jews have a term for those that leave Judaism and its not called "Gentile." Apostasy is the nice word for it. But obviously all non Jews are considered Gentile's.

Well the Bible is a Jewish book. So all religion's base there religion on Judaism. If they want to accept that or not, that's there problem. So even though Jews don't except the NT, doesn't mean its not Jewish.

All those that except Jesus, and were not Jews to begin with, are not Jews when they do. They are part of spiritual Israel. They become grafted into the tree, and Jews that come back to the fold, are also grafted back in.

I agree it gets complicated. I was not brought up Jewish. My father wanted nothing to do with God, after spending 5 years in concentration camps. So we were being brought up as "secular Jews" as you say. But my Mom wanted us to have some kind of faith so she found the SDA church and through them she found a Adventist church that catered to Jews. So my knowledge is limited, but I observed my relative's and have checked stuff out as the years have gone bye.

[D.A. Wintsmith]

I have worked for fourteen years in a synagogue, so I know a little about Judaism. I am most familiar with Jews of the Conservative movement.

You are NOT automatically a citizen of Israel if you are born Jewish. If you are Jewish, born in the states, you are a citizen of the U.S. If you are Jewish and move to Israel then you can claim citizenship. It is often described as "automotic" citizenship, but I think that just means that there is just less red tape for a Jewish person to become an Israeli.

Jewishness is determined through the maternal line. If your father is Jewish and your mother isn't, then you aren't Jewish by Jewish law until you go through a formal conversion.

If you are born Jewish, you are not necessarily a believer nor a participant in Judaism as a religion. There are many unaffiliated Jews.

Judaism is more than a religion. It is a community, bound by traditions and a very long history. The rituals we hear so much about are performed with a deep joy, not because it is a legalized thing that one must do, but because it is the same thing that has been done for thousands of years, often under conditions of great hardship and threat of death; and this makes them feel connected with each other and with the past and the future, and with many that also feels like a connection with God.

To answer your question, is Judaism a true religion? I would answer that it is a true religion for Jewish people. They don't try to bring people of other religions into their beliefs. Their beliefs fit them very well, but they understand that it doesn't fit everybody. They are very tolerant of other belief systems. Even when people from churches come into the synagogue and try to preach to them or hand out literature, they don't seem to get angry. They just ask them to please respect that the synagogue is their place of worship.

I am not aware of a term for people who leave Judaism. There are various ways of leaving Judaism. For some it is leaving the synagogue community, for others it is cutting ties with the entire Jewish community, or desiring to not claim any part of a Jewish heritage. There is such a wide range of diversity and acceptance for individual practice of Judaism and being Jewish that there really doesn't seem to be an equivalent to the term apostasy, at least among Conservative Judaism. There may be more of that sort of feeling with the Orthodox, but in our city, the Orthodox and Conservative often have duel membership and support both places of worship, so it is hard to say who is Conservative and who is Orthodox.

Jews who convert to Christianity are no longer considered Jewish by the Jewish community. There are sects who call themselves Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews, but the Jewish community considers them Christian, not Jewish. Jews don't regard Christianity as a monotheistic religion because of the Trinity, and that is one reason given that they don't accept the divinity of Jesus.

If anyone is still reading this, you really are interested in the topic!

[Windsor]

Wintsmith,

I am curious as to your line of work in a Conservative Jewish synagogue.

[Gregory Matthews]

I work very closely with Rabbis who are quite willing to explain being Jewish to me.

[The question of jews converting] is the critical central issue: That one issue is that to be Jewish, one must reject Jesus Christ as God. There is no such thing as a Messianic Jew.

To put it in another context: What if I said to you, "I have a friend who is a Satanic Seventh-day Adventist! I think that we would say, "No Way!"

Jewish people say the same about Messianic Jews.

[phkrause]

That's . I have not [worked in a Jewish synagogue] and really not sure I would.

[phkrause]

I have not heard that [about the citizenship rule]before. From most of my Jewish relatives I've heard the opposite.

[phkrause]

I have a problem with [only being Jewish through the maternal line]. I have heard from a umber of Jews that they don't buy that. Some of my relatives agree with this and others do not. As you say its a Jewish law and not many have any idea where this comes from either.

[phkrause]

I can definitely agree with being Jewish is more than a religion]. I really hate when I read certain posters saying that Jews are legalists, when most Jews that are religious live there religion every day and they really look forward to the Sabbath.

[phkrause]

I agree with [Judaism being a true religion] 100%

[phkrause]

There is D.A. Wintsmith, but at the moment I'm not sure how to spell it. I'll get back to you on the word or saying and the way to spell it.

[phkrause]

Not sure about Jews for Jesus. I was a member of a SDA Jewish Church in the Bronx for many years as a young boy. They actually called the building the Bronx Temple. And they considered themselves Jewish Adventists or Messianic Jews if you will. There is a Jewish pastor down in Hollywood, FL who, if I'm not mistaken, also considers the Jews that go to his church to be Messianic Jews. Here's a link to there place: http://www.btvfl.org/

[phkrause]

Well I guess I am [interested] than! :)

[Neil D]

Regarding what teresaq(sda) said- So how could Judaism not be a "fix"? A temporary fix to a problem? Nor is this a question of Judaism versus "Christianity", or "Christianity" being superior to Judaism. The vast majority of we self-proclaimed Christians aren't any such thing.

It occurs to me that the patch/fix was given, and then when Christ died, the patch came off and the real religion was in place....

It also occurs to me that since the patch came off, some of us are playing with the patch and are implying that the religion is broken.....That kinda makes one wonder just what the patch metaphorically means...

[Kevin H]

I have lived and studied in Israel, two of my favorite former girlfriends were Israeli soldiers when I was seeing them, one is still a very close friend. I took Jewish Life and Thought at the seminary from Dr. Johnston and studied in Israel with Methodist Archaeologist Dr. Jim Fleming, and when living in Israel I had interesting discussions with the two conference presidents who were their during my time and was close to the Rabbi when I was a chaplain assistant in the Army, helping out in the Synagogue when his Chaplain Assistant was not able to be there, and friendships and discussions with other military chaplains who are Rabbis.

While your comment is basically correct Greg, These sources say it's more of a complicated subject than your description. Now the "Jews for Jesus" movement is basically a group to make Jews into good conservative fundamentalist dispensationalist Christians often with Sunday-keeping pork eating results. The other "Messianic Jewish" movements are tended to be seen as conversions to Christianity, but keeping much of their roots. However, and sadly I do not understand this enough to explain it, but a way of accepting Jesus, even as the Messiah, but not becoming "Christians" that is acceptable to Judaism, and Dr. Johnston and Dr. Fleming both mentioned in class that most Rabbis don't mind their members accepting Jesus as long as they don't become Christians, and other’s I’ve spoken with, both Christians who work close with Jews and Jewish leaders, have said the same thing.

There is a Jewish reclamation of Jesus and while for centuries Rabbis would describe the man Jesus and the demon Paul, there is recently a reclamation of Paul. There are new and exciting studies of Paul from a Jewish context and first century context.

In the early days of our mission work in Europe we did not know how to make Christians out of non-Christians. Running into the Jewish neighborhoods what our early missionaries did was offer their Jewish neighbors a Jewish version of Adventism. This continued until the 1930s when people were accusing us of not being a Christian religion and the General Conference saying that we were indeed a Christian religion, until it was pointed out that there were Seventh-day Adventist Jews who did not consider themselves Christians. Sadly they decided that while those who were Seventh-day Adventist Jews could stay in good fellowship that in the future if a Jew wanted to become a Seventh-day Adventist they would also have to become a Christian.

When I was in Israel in the early 1980s some of these Seventh-day Adventist Jews were still alive. They were members of the Haifa Church and I am sad to say that I never made it up there to meet any of them. But they were in their 80s and 90s at the time. The Tel Aiv Church had a large turn out each Sabbath but about half the people there were Jewish people whose names were not on the church books because they did not want to become Christians, but they faithfully studied the Bible, Mrs. White, the Sabbath School lessons and attended and participated Sabbath after Sabbath for years and decades. I read something in the Review recently which sounded like they have made some kind of member status for these people. But anyway, until the last of these Jewish Adventists died the Israel mission would turn in the numbers of Christian members and the number of Jewish members. I don't know how they deal with those that the Review mentioned.

Both when I was in Israel as well as at the Seminary, it was pointed out that there are 4 ways to work with the Jews (three that were sanctioned by the church). First the traditional convert to Seventh-day Adventist Christians. Second, to offer a Messianic Jewish version of Adventism, where they would still be considered converts to Christianity just as it was pointed out to Gregory about other Messianic Jewish groups. Third was if the church was to again offer a Jewish version of Adventism again. And fourth, help the Jews see the great truths that they already have.

When I was at the seminary, the conference president of the Israeli Mission who was there when I first came, but left to work on his doctorate, was still working on his doctorate. The Benton Harbor Synagogue was between Rabbis, and they asked this former President of the Israeli Mission to give their Sabbath Sermons until the new Rabbi arrived and the Rabbi asked him to continue for a few weeks until the Rabbi was settled.

Also, we had a professor, J. Dukahn (spelling). I love his book "Drinking at the Sources" and took a class from him and enjoyed speaking with him. Now someone might have more information that I'm giving here, but what they were saying around the Seminary as he was getting ready to arrive was that he grew up in a Jewish home. His father converted to Adventism and became an Adventist minister, but he refused to allow his family to convert but had them stay Jewish, but would teach them Adventism. His son felt called to the ministry so converted to Christianity to be a Seventh-day Adventist minister and went on to become one of our professors at the seminary. Now I just heard from a pastor, and I don't know the details about this, but that the church has in recent years allowed him to also take Rabinical studies and that he is also currently not only an Adventist minister but also a Rabbi. Now I don't know if this if for a messianic Adventist congregation or if it is outreach to other Jewish groups, maybe someone here knows the details. But this is a more complicated topic.

And let me close with an interesting note: When Abraham Joshua Heshel was invited to speak at Loma Linda, he became fast friends with Jack Provonsha and they remained close for the rest of Rabbi Heshel's life. Jack told a group of us that Rabbi Heshel fell in love with Seventh-day Adventism. That he would tell Jack "Seventh-day Adventism is the best theological system there is but you will not be going anyplace until you present it in a more sophisticated and credible manner" and that whenever he talked with Jack he would ask "How are we doing?" and the "we" meant the Seventh-day Adventist Church. And when I was in Germany meeting the planes of the wounded troops from Iraq, once we had a few military chaplains that were Rabbis visiting our unit. When they learned that I was a Seventh-day Adventist they all told me that they were big fans of Chaplain Black and would hear him preach whenever they could and use him as one of their spiritual leaders and teach what they learned from him with their Synagogues.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

Just a reminder that this is in the no quote zone.

[D.A. Wintsmith]

Sorry for the long delay in response -- I feel like a hit and runner. I wrote a long post and then vanished.

The answer to what do I do at the synagogue -- here are a few things I do:

I am their webmaster.

I design publications

I have written a column in their bulletin about differences in Jewish and Christian thought

I help people transliterate the Hebrew names and dates from plaques and gravestones, and also help to transliterate names and dates from English into Hebrew.

I keep their historical archives.

We are in a Southern U.S. state. It's not a secret, but I don't want to act like I'm representing the synagogue when I chat about Judaism. I understand a great deal about Judaism, partly because the Adventists taught me the Bible so thoroughly and I was able to make the connections more easily because of my background, but I can still be surprised with information that I don't know.

Like about that word for apostasy. I guess I should ask a rabbi about that. It just hasn't come up, although we have had people convert to Chrisitanity. And vice versa.

BTW, there is a rumor going around among my acquaintences who have left Adventism, that the word "apostasy" is used in the Conference records when they ask to have their name removed for SDA membership. Anyone know about that?

[Gail]

Interesting job!

[D.A. Wintsmith]

I want to find out,but I'm not sure where to ask within Adventism, and it doesn't come up in google except for anti-Adventist sites. I don't think I ever heard an Adventist speak of "apostasy" being written by a person's name who leaves. I have only heard this rumor from FORMER Adventists.

I suspect it is one of those urban myths that nobody bothers to check out because it triggers a knee-jerk reaction. They just figure it's true because they are upset with the church, and it is easy to believe the worst. My own experience makes me suspect that it is a lie.

When I left the church, I spoke with the minister at Collegedale, and asked him if I should officially have my name removed from the records. I had definitely left the church, but I felt really weird about having my name removed. It seemed so final. He said it was ok to leave it on indefinitely. He seemed to be in no hurry whatsoever to label me an apostate.

Come to think about it, I guess I'm still officially an Adventist, because I never did have my name taken from the records.

[Kevin H]

D. A. Jesus said that whoever would come to him would not get thrown out. In the end of John, Jesus asks Peter three times "Do you love me" but what we don't notice in English is that there are two different words used. One for the special relationship with God the second being friends, buddies. .

Jesus asked Peter the first time "Peter, do you love me as Lord of your life? Am I your God?" Peter replied "You are my buddy, my friend, someone who I enjoy being around." Jesus asked Peter again "Do you love me as your God?" and Peter again replied "I love you as a buddy" the third time Jesus asked Peter "Are you sure that you love me as your buddy? Are you sure you love me as a friend?" and this grieved Peter. But Peter knew where he was. He had betrayed Jesus because he was so sure that he loved Jesus as his God, but now he sees clearer. His relationship with Jesus was not what it could have been. His relationship with Jesus was not what it should have been. But he did have somewhat of a relationship with Jesus. He loved Jesus as his friend.

Jesus did not cast Peter out because he could only love him as another person who's company he enjoyed, as a buddy and at this point he was not loving Jesus as his Lord and God.

But Jesus did not cast Peter out. Jesus still accepted him.

If we want to be like Jesus, how can we be different? Maybe we believe that people should be members of our church. Maybe we believe that people who were once members should not leave. Why should we cast people out because they don't feel the same way? Why can Jesus accept people who may not see him as he saw himself, but yet would not cast out people who saw him as friends. And Jesus' view of himself was not flawed. So why should we, as sinful humans, cast out people who want to be on good terms with us because they don't accept the friendship on our self image? You are indeed welcome here!!!

[D.A. Wintsmith]

Well said, Kevin. Thank you.