Could you opine about www.adventistalternative.org?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Seeking the lost" is not a "ministry" of tearing down.....

Did Christ go out and 'tear down', no, He rescued the lost sheep! Did he berate it for wandering off, no He took it in His arms and carried it back!

We seem to have an abundance of people lately coming to 'tear down' the church, wishing to build their own. That would seem to me, they are a bit 'up' on feelings of pride such as the praying man that Christ spoke about who was loudly proclaiming "Lord, I'm glad that I am not like that......"! Little do they understand with all their misquoting/out of context/etc that the only work being accomplished...is well...to be kind, not like the work Christ! It would also be a bit...shall we say...to claim such, false!!

[skyblue888]

I agree but that does not mean that the church will always be exalted as the church of God. I suspect you agree with that. History shows that the call of of God is always conditional.

There was a time of probation for the Jewish church which probation closed in A.D.34 at the stoning of Stephen.

Before the last message of mercy goes to the world and swell into a loud cry, the church will be given a last opportunity to receive, believe, and act upon the light sent to her.

sky

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Jesus did not uphold the Sanhedrin either but we do not find Him asking for His name to be removed from church membership or calling people to separate from the church. Even the apostles at Pentecost did not call people to come out of the Jewish church eventhough the leading men had put the Messiah to death. The call to come out did not come until the church had sealed her rejection of God's mercy and that came at the stoning of the Stephen.

The church today has not yet sealed her rejection of God's mercy. The message to the Laodicean church must again be proclaimed in latter rain power as it was in 1888. If that message is resisted again and the bearers of the message character assassinated, then the time will come when probation will close on the church and the bearers of the message will turn to the world and it will swell into the loud cry.

sky

This is a good post sky - it describes the example of Jesus which we must all follow in order to be true overcomers, rather than false prophets, with a discouraging message. I particularly enjoyed the first paragraph of your post.

Great post OA. Especially the above statement. Many seem to want to blame the Church and others, but didn't our Lord and Savior say that the one without sin should throw the first stone? Yet we condemn the very Church that God himself through EGW started. I think with all its faults its not any better or worse than all of its individual parts! Which if I'm not mistaken is us!

[phkrause]

Quote:

Seeking the lost" is not a "ministry" of tearing down.....

Did Christ go out and 'tear down', no, He rescued the lost sheep! Did he berate it for wandering off, no He took it in His arms and carried it back!

We seem to have an abundance of people lately coming to 'tear down' the church, wishing to build their own. That would seem to me, they are a bit 'up' on feelings of pride such as the praying man that Christ spoke about who was loudly proclaiming "Lord, I'm glad that I am not like that......"! Little do they understand with all their misquoting/out of context/etc that the only work being accomplished...is well...to be kind, not like the work Christ! It would also be a bit...shall we say...to claim such, false!!

[Gibs]

Like an ordination recognition service an Apostate church is recognized and should be let known. Jesus made a great example of this. I'll just paste 2 verses of the whole chapter of Matt used by Jesus here and tell me are we not to condemn Apostasy? Open your Bible and read this whole chapter!

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Mt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Now a couple verses from other writers.

Mr 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

Lu 11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.

It is no sin to reveal apostasy in the church, there was much of it in Jesus's day and He spoke many times stronger than John the Baptist.

TRUE MEN are again needed today to call sin by it's right name!

In our work, we need men of moral independence, uncontaminated and unshackled, so that when a principle of religion or duty is at stake they will stand firm in defense of the truth. We need men who will not hold their peace when they see evils coming in and wrongs being done. We need men who will refuse to give consent by silence to unjust actions.--Letter 116, 1905, p. 5. {9MR 156.2}

The World's Greatest Need.--The greatest want of the world is the want of men,--men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.--Education, p. 57. (1903) {CM 54.4}

Since I am no body, where EGW expresses my thoughts I paste her testimony as she is somebody to most and will more likely be considered.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

I agree but that does not mean that the church will always be exalted as the church of God. I suspect you agree with that. History shows that the call of of God is always conditional.

There was a time of probation for the Jewish church which probation closed in A.D.34 at the stoning of Stephen.

Before the last message of mercy goes to the world and swell into a loud cry, the church will be given a last opportunity to receive, believe, and act upon the light sent to her.

sky

It has been done over and over again Sky and the church may be about measured up now,

Re 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Then there is 42 mos. literal time for those out of the church structures and these will be the last call.

Time is now so much shorter than most are thinking and the end will come as a thief in the nite.

What has claimed to be His church will be judged first. It may already be beginning with the living.

I'm hearing evidence of the following. A power is attending these messages that is beyond man.

An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel."

Great power was with these chosen ones. Said the angel, "Look ye!" My attention was turned to the wicked, or unbelievers. They were all astir. The zeal and power with the people of God had aroused and enraged them. Confusion, confusion, was on every side. I saw measures taken against the company who had the light and power of God. Darkness thickened around them, yet they stood firm, approved of God, and trusting in Him. I saw them perplexed; next I heard them crying unto God earnestly. Day and night their cry ceased not: "Thy will, O God, be done! If it can glorify Thy name, make a way of escape for Thy people! Deliver us from the heathen around about us. They have appointed us unto death; but Thine arm can bring salvation." These are all the words which I can bring to mind. All seemed to have a deep sense of their unworthiness, and manifested entire submission to the will of God; yet like Jacob, every one, without an exception, was earnestly pleading and wrestling for deliverance. {CET 177.3}

You know Sky and all who hold any thing from EGW's writings, that when the time of the end comes men will be putting it down the road too far and I am seeing it now.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Umfundize

Overaged:

The problem is that NO ONE can take the BIBLE and defend the Investigative Judgment! The SDA church is the ONLY church on earth who believe in this doctrine of investigating saved sinners' WORKS! It is NOT Biblical and many of the LEADERS would love to do away with it. However, then they have to drop EGW who CONFIRMED this schemed out doctrine of Crosier et al.

You simply CANNOT refute the positions Dr Barkhuizen advanced without the help of our sister.

If you can, please share your insights. The truth is that most SDA doctrines come from the Bible PLUS Ellen White. What some scholars are doing is to see what the BIBLE ALONE has to say! The Clear Word Bible is a classic example of how SDA's MIX the Bible with the writings of EGW. THIS has caused mainline Christianity to label SDA as Cult of the YEAR!

SDA doctrines CANNOT stand on the WORD ALONE! Have you ACTUALLY read what Dr Barky had to say about John 10:22,23? Do you know, right now, what the Feast of Dedication is? If not, then you may want to ACTUALLY read Adventist Alternative...and be helped, like I was.

So outdated. The Investigative Judgment is easier to defend now than it ever has. Get a hold of Mr. Heidi Heik's book, "The 'Daily' Source Book", and Bradley R. Williams', "The Silencing of Satan". These books prove from scripture alone the Investigative Judgment and the termination of the 2300 days in 1844.

It doesn't matter how one cuts it, slices it, or dices it, the 2300 evening-mornings terminate in 1844. No matter how much you may try manipulate the math, it always ends up terminating on that date.

Don't like the IJ doctrine of 1844? Deal with the fact that the 2300 days ends on October 22, 1844, and now provide us an alternative. The only "figment" alternative in your mind can exist if you reject the fact that the 2300 days do not end in 1844.

No matter how much one dislikes the IJ doctrine, the 2300 days ending in 1844 is NOT going to go away.

It will HAUNT the critics to their grave.

Have you easily forgotten our discussion in the thread Daniel 11? Your last stand there against my biblically based position was that it is not in accordance with the SOP.

No, the 2300-day prophecy (literal days, NOT years, biblically) in Dan 8 has not yet even started and is yet to be fulfilled in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming! This I can prove from the Bible and the Bible alone, as Sister White bids us all to do.

[Samie]

In Matt 24:15-31, Christ had emphatically delineated the setting up of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, will trigger a rapid succession of events starting with the Great Tribulation at the end of which unusual celestial phenomena will occur to culminate in the 2nd Coming.

Daniel records the setting up of the abomination of desolation will occur 1290 days (literal days, NOT years) AFTER the 'daily' is taken away. Since Daniel refers to only ONE taking away of the 'daily', all prophecies that are directly related with the taking away of the 'daily' will occur shortly before the 2nd Coming; and because the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8 is among these prophecies, it will then occur shortly before the 2nd Coming.

[Samie]

It can be easily seen that a simple belief in the words of our Savior will lead us all into the inevitable conclusion that prophecies in the book of Daniel related with the abomination of desolation will all find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

[Overaged]

Overaged:

The problem is that NO ONE can take the BIBLE and defend the Investigative Judgment! The SDA church is the ONLY church on earth who believe in this doctrine of investigating saved sinners' WORKS! It is NOT Biblical and many of the LEADERS would love to do away with it. However, then they have to drop EGW who CONFIRMED this schemed out doctrine of Crosier et al.

You simply CANNOT refute the positions Dr Barkhuizen advanced without the help of our sister.

If you can, please share your insights. The truth is that most SDA doctrines come from the Bible PLUS Ellen White. What some scholars are doing is to see what the BIBLE ALONE has to say! The Clear Word Bible is a classic example of how SDA's MIX the Bible with the writings of EGW. THIS has caused mainline Christianity to label SDA as Cult of the YEAR!

SDA doctrines CANNOT stand on the WORD ALONE! Have you ACTUALLY read what Dr Barky had to say about John 10:22,23? Do you know, right now, what the Feast of Dedication is? If not, then you may want to ACTUALLY read Adventist Alternative...and be helped, like I was.

[Overaged]

Contrary to popular opinion, Ellen G White did not originate the sanctuary doctrine of The Seventh-day Adventist Church. Her most detailed, and mature writings on the subject did not appear until the late 1880s.

Actually, the concept of a pre-advent “trial” judgment, (Dan 7), followed by a second advent, (executive judgment), was first argued by Methodist theologian, Josiah Litch, a prominent Millerite Minister, as early as 1840, and 1842. [Well before Ellen White ever wrote about it].

After The Great Disappointment of 1844, non-Sabbatarian Millerites continued to examine Litch’s concept of final judgment, which they also linked to Lev 16, (Day of Atonement), as well as Christ’s wedding parables.

The fact of a pre-Advent Judgment, the transit of Christ from the father’s right hand to the father’s judgment throne, the limiting of the Daniel 7 “trial” judgment to the people of God, and the need for God’s people to keep their garments of character spotless, were studied out and published in Millerite papers , apart from any kind of influence from then, the very young Ellen G White. [Ellen White was born in 1827, making her just 13 years old when Josiah Litch started writing and publishing about the pre-Advent Judgment. By this alone we know that the charge of our doctrine on the pre-Advent Judgment originates in Ellen White is patently false. But there is more.]

These positions [on the pre-Advent Judgment] however, were soon abandoned by their early advocates. Sabbatarian Adventists on the other hand, retained and amplified them. They perceived that the sanctuary of Dan 8:14 was the heavenly sanctuary where Christ had ministered since Oct 22nd, 1844, in the Most Holy Place. Following Christ by faith into His new phase of ministry, they came to see the significance of the opened temple in heaven, and it’s focus on “the ark of His testament.” (see Rev 11:19).

Their attention was thus directed to the validity of the ten commandments, and it’s fourth precept, commanding the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath. Linking sanctuary with Sabbath like this provided some very vital dynamics to both concepts; especially as Sabbatarians saw the time frame , from 1844 to the close of human probation, and sensed the urgency of the judgment hour, as announced by the first angel’s message. (see Rev 14:6-7).

Concentrating on the doctrine of the millennium, and the executive judgment at it’s close, James White at first rejected the idea of a pre-Advent Judgment of professed believers. However, by 1857, he was in total agreement with Joseph Bates, the principle, early Sabbatarian writer on these matters. (1846-1850); employing the phrase “investigative judgment” for the Daniel 7 scene; a phrase, as we now know, that became a common terminology amongst Sabbath-keepers at the time. James White, especially applied the Laodicean Message, (Rev 3), to the Sabbath-keeping Adventists in connection with the investigative judgment. He saw the investigative judgment as a much needed appeal for repentance and spiritual preparedness on the part of God’s people who were “now living in the time of Christ’s final judgment work in heaven.”

NOTE: this article was edited/adapted from a book called Doctrine Of The Sanctuary” by Frank B Holbrook. square bracket emphasis are mine, and I added a number of scripture references in places

[Samie]

Contrary to popular opinion, Ellen G White did not originate the sanctuary doctrine of The Seventh-day Adventist Church. Her most detailed, and mature writings on the subject did not appear until the late 1880s.

Actually, the concept of a pre-advent “trial” judgment, (Dan 7), followed by a second advent, (executive judgment), was first argued by Methodist theologian, Josiah Litch, a prominent Millerite Minister, as early as 1840, and 1842. [Well before Ellen White ever wrote about it].

...

Daniel 7 is related with the 2nd Coming, as Scriptures so indicate.

The fourth beast of Dan 7 is a kingdom from which shall arise a king who is the beast of Rev 13 whose image is the abomination of desolation. Christ Himself delineated the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger a rapid succession of events starting with the Great Tribulation, at the end of which unusual celestial phenomena will occur to be capped by the 2nd Coming.

So how can Dan 7 be used to justify a pre-advent "trial" judgment based on Scriptures alone?

[Overaged]

Daniel 7 is related with the 2nd Coming, as Scriptures so indicate.

So how can Dan 7 be used to justify a pre-advent "trial" judgment based on Scriptures alone?

re Daniel 7: In this classic portrayal of judgment day in heaven; both Ancient of Days, and Son of Man “come” to a new place in heaven for the specific purpose of judgment.

The context locates this judgment as later than the 1260 year/days of the “little horn;” but prior to the second advent.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Daniel 7 is related with the 2nd Coming, as Scriptures so indicate.

So how can Dan 7 be used to justify a pre-advent "trial" judgment based on Scriptures alone?

re Daniel 7: In this classic portrayal of judgment day in heaven; both Ancient of Days, and Son of Man “come” to a new place in heaven for the specific purpose of judgment.

The context locates this judgment as later than the 1260 year/days of the “little horn;” but prior to the second advent.

[Samie]

Did anyone notice the title of this thread had changed into "Ellen White Did Not Write Doctrine Of Investigative Judgment!!"? Or, only in my computer the change occur? Just asking, no offense meant, brethren.

[Overaged]

No offense taken at all Samie! When you make a post, you can give each individual post a title; and thats all that happened here. I simply gave my individual post that title.

I agree; Dan 7 is related to the second coming! No argument there. I was specifically addressing the Pre-Advent phase of the judgment, which, as the name says, takes place before the second coming. I will look forward to more discussion as time permits.

[Samie]

No offense taken at all Samie! When you make a post, you can give each individual post a title; and thats all that happened here. I simply gave my individual post that title.

I agree; Dan 7 is related to the second coming! No argument there. I was specifically addressing the Pre-Advent phase of the judgment, which, as the name says, takes place before the second coming. I will look forward to more discussion as time permits.

[Overaged]

Looks like there's just no place in Scriptures for a "pre-advent" judgment, one which was formerly called "investigative" judgment, is there?

Anecdotal Evidence On The Investigative Judgment

As I have mentioned before in a few posts elsewhere, the Investigative Judgment is the one doctrine out of all the possible ones, that convinced me to join the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and give my heart to Jesus through baptism.

When I first started studying Bible topics with Church members, I recall being really interested and excited about this doctrine, because in it, I saw an assurance of salvation, that I never saw anywhere else. The very first thing I thought was “If Jesus is both my Judge, and my Advocate; how can I lose my salvation?”

I came right off the streets and into a world of church stuff, that was all so foreign to me. I have never liked wearing suits, or following “modern etiquette” and washing all the paint and drywall mud off my hands everywhere else on Saturdays. Well; when I first learned about, and studied in depth the Investigative Judgment, I started doing all those “refined cultural things” for the simple reason that I could see through this doctrine that Jesus was/is very serious about me; and so I wanted to be serious about Him. Now, as each year passes, I leave less and less drywall mud crumbs in the church pews, where I have sat; or on the floors where I have kneeled for prayer. I remember one night at prayer meeting; I couldn’t get home in time to change; and when we all got up off our knees, I noticed everyone staring at the floor where I had knelt. Yep. You got it. Drywall crumbs all over the place. I was shocked…didn’t realize what I was “really like” until that moment. And the members there were so gracious about it, before I could offer to clean it up, someone was there with a shop vac.

And yes; they did invite me to the next prayer meeting too.

Those dear church members reminded me of how Jesus is going to be in the Judgment:

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

When Jesus looks at me; He bases His decision on facts. He has those books opened, and in those books it is easy to see how He loved me, and carried me, all through my rebellious and troubled years, and how, in the end; He looks at me and says: “Well done.” Those books are opened before the second advent.

In the book of Daniel, in chapter 7, right after “the judgement was set and the books were opened,” and Jesus was seen to be Justified AND the Justifier, (Rom 3:26), regarding my salvation, and as vs 13-14 say; no one can undo what Jesus does in this judgment portrayed in Daniel 7.

As you stated, when Jesus comes the second time; He rewards us at that time, "according to our works." How could jesus do this if there was not some sort of investigation before he comes? We are in agreement that there is one judgment, but we differ because I see one judgment, with four distinct phases in the Bible. But to make a long story short, the important thing is to know that no matter what your take is on the judgment; all you need is the Bible to show why you see it that way. There is plenty of evidence in scripture. The accusation that we depend upon EGW for this doctrine is absolutely false.

[Samie]

Anecdotal Evidence On The Investigative Judgment

...

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

When Jesus looks at me; He bases His decision on facts. He has those books opened, and in those books it is easy to see how He loved me, and carried me, all through my rebellious and troubled years, and how, in the end; He looks at me and says: “Well done.” Those books are opened before the second advent.

In the book of Daniel, in chapter 7, right after “the judgement was set and the books were opened,” and Jesus was seen to be Justified AND the Justifier, (Rom 3:26), regarding my salvation, and as vs 13-14 say; no one can undo what Jesus does in this judgment portrayed in Daniel 7.

As you stated, when Jesus comes the second time; He rewards us at that time, "according to our works." How could jesus do this if there was not some sort of investigation before he comes? We are in agreement that there is one judgment, but we differ because I see one judgment, with four distinct phases in the Bible. But to make a long story short, the important thing is to know that no matter what your take is on the judgment; all you need is the Bible to show why you see it that way. There is plenty of evidence in scripture. The accusation that we depend upon EGW for this doctrine is absolutely false.

[Overaged]

Just wondering, brother, why you need an anecdotal proof when as you said there's plenty of biblical evidence. Paradoxical, isn't it?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Just wondering, brother, why you need an anecdotal proof when as you said there's plenty of biblical evidence. Paradoxical, isn't it?

No. Not really for if you look again you will see a lot of Biblical evidence to go along with it.

[Overaged]

As per your claim re "phase of judgment", it is your duty to prove from Scriptures what it says as "judgment" but which you claim as "phase of judgment".

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Heb 9:27 and Dan 7 are two different phases of the same judgment.

Heb 9:27 occurs after a person dies. I believe this had to do with the decision whether to blot his name from the book of life or not as Rev 3:5 indicates. Since throngs have died long before 1844 and had their names either retained or blotted from the book of life, what is the need for judging again those whose names were retained in the book of life in the investigative judgment you believe started in 1844?

[Gibs]

It is while men are still dwelling upon the earth that the work of investigative judgment takes place in the courts of heaven. The lives of all His professed followers pass in review before God. All are examined according to the record of the books of heaven, and according to his deeds the destiny of each is forever fixed. {COL 310.2}

Re 11:1 ¶ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Re 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Re 11:3 ¶ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Did you notice the witnesses are yet to go forth after verse one?

Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Q.E.D.]

The problem is that NO ONE can take the BIBLE and defend the Investigative Judgment!

[Samie]

...

Are you trying to tell us that the transit of Christ, from the Father's "right hand," to the Father's judgment throne, as depicted clearly in Dan 7, is something that happens at the same time as Heb 9:27? You have a lot of explaining to do, if that is the case.