Moderators Gerr Posted November 14, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted November 14, 2013 We are discussing too many issues at once without doing justice to each. May I suggest we deal with each one one at a time? At the root of my issues with your belief system is the denial that man is incapable of doing ANYTHING without being attached to the body of Christ first, which you say happened at the Cross. Am I stating your position correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 ANYTHING should be qualified as ANYTHING GOOD, spiritually speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 15, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted November 15, 2013 ANYTHING should be qualified as ANYTHING GOOD, spiritually speaking. So, if sinners did not become attached to the body of Christ at the Cross when, as you claim, reconciliation/atonement took place, and since you deny that a sinner is capable of making choices for God before he/she is attached to the body of Christ, how then did Abel, Noah, Enoch, or any of the OT saints chose to serve God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 So, if sinners did not become attached to the body of Christ at the Cross when, as you claim, reconciliation/atonement took place, and since you deny that a sinner is capable of making choices for God before he/she is attached to the body of Christ, how then did Abel, Noah, Enoch, or any of the OT saints chose to serve God? Atonement was put in place that very same day Adam sinned. God had told Adam, before He created Eve, that on the day he eats of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil, he will surely die. Adam ate and sinned. That sin separated him from God. He has to die to pay for his own sin. But if man himself dies to pay for his own sin, man would have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have ETERNALLY lost the sinner He loves, having died separate from Him. God made a way so that man could not only pay for his sin but also at the same time have hope of life eternal. Adam & Eve 'died' that day they sinned through the death of that animal whose skin God fashioned into the covering of the first couple (Gen 3:21), yet lived on with hope of life eternal. The death of that lamb(?) pointed forward to the death of the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). No wonder Christ is called the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:18-20; Rev 13:8). Abel, Noah, Enoch, and all other descendants of Adam & Eve were all born attached to Christ by virtue of the death of the Son of God on the cross. The death of our Savior benefited all men, before and after the cross. (see Isa 53:5-7; Matt 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 22:20; John 6:33; Rom 5:18; 2 Cor 5:14,15; 1 Tim 1:15; 4:10; Heb 2:9; 7:27, 9:15,25,26; 10:10-17; etc.) In Christ, Samie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 15, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted November 15, 2013 So all who are attached to the body of Christ are saved, since they have been reconciled to God and all their sins atoned for, is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 15, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted November 15, 2013 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo So, if sinners did not become attached to the body of Christ at the Cross when, as you claim, reconciliation/atonement took place, and since you deny that a sinner is capable of making choices for God before he/she is attached to the body of Christ, how then did Abel, Noah, Enoch, or any of the OT saints chose to serve God? Atonement was put in place that very same day Adam sinned. Hmmm. Now you have me even more confused. It seems to me you are now saying what I have been saying all along, i.e. that atonement has been going on since sin appeared. The difference is that you are now willing for atonement at the Cross to look back or be retroactive but that it stopped at the Cross because it was completed there. And yet you claim that if we sin today, Christ makes atonement for it by putting His righteousness in our account, thus justifying us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2013 Members Share Posted November 15, 2013 Hmmm. Now you have me even more confused. It seems to me you are now saying what I have been saying all along, i.e. that atonement has been going on since sin appeared. The difference is that you are now willing for atonement at the Cross to look back or be retroactive but that it stopped at the Cross because it was completed there. And yet you claim that if we sin today, Christ makes atonement for it by putting His righteousness in our account, thus justifying us.Exactly, I'd say you have nailed it Gerry. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Hmmm. Now you have me even more confused. It seems to me you are now saying what I have been saying all along, i.e. that atonement has been going on since sin appeared. The difference is that you are now willing for atonement at the Cross to look back or be retroactive but that it stopped at the Cross because it was completed there. And yet you claim that if we sin today, Christ makes atonement for it by putting His righteousness in our account, thus justifying us. There is only one, single, all-encompassing atonement that covered all sins committed before and after the cross: the atonement made by our Savior on the cross. Either Before or After the cross, when a person sins, Christ justifies the sinner by not imputing the sin committed because of the atonement on the cross. A complete, perfect atonement was made by our Savior on the cross. I NEVER made the claim that "if we sin today, Christ makes atonement for it by putting His righteousness in our account, thus justifying us". The claim is illusory. Justification is done by not imputing the sin committed against the sinner; NOT by making atonement for the sin again. JUSTIFICATION is continually done: each time sin is committed. ATONEMENT was done but once: on the cross. Christ was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25). NOT for our atonement again. In Christ, Samie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 So all who are attached to the body of Christ are saved, since they have been reconciled to God and all their sins atoned for, is that correct? Yes, all had been saved from sin. That is correct. What is wrong is to conclude that because we were all saved from sin, none of us will land in the lake of fire. Majority of us who were all saved from sin will ultimately land in the lake of fire. Why? Because of non-overcoming. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). Blotting out from the book of life is removal from the registry of heaven, dismembering from the Body of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Many of those posting on this thread are SO confused as to Adventist doctrine it's folly to think you can reason with them. This thread, in particular, has become the cage of every unclean bird. Of course your confused, look at the source, it's a spirit, but it's not a Holy Spirit. It's Babylon and babbling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 15, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted November 15, 2013 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo So all who are attached to the body of Christ are saved, since they have been reconciled to God and all their sins atoned for, is that correct? Yes, all had been saved from sin. That is correct. What is wrong is to conclude that because we were all saved from sin, none of us will land in the lake of fire. Majority of us who were all saved from sin will ultimately land in the lake of fire. Why? Because of non-overcoming. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). Blotting out from the book of life is removal from the registry of heaven, dismembering from the Body of Christ. So, if everyone born is already saved but can still land in the lake of fire, what is it that can do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Originally Posted By: Samie Yes, all had been saved from sin. That is correct. What is wrong is to conclude that because we were all saved from sin, none of us will land in the lake of fire. Majority of us who were all saved from sin will ultimately land in the lake of fire. Why? Because of non-overcoming. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). Blotting out from the book of life is removal from the registry of heaven, dismembering from the Body of Christ. So, if everyone born is already saved but can still land in the lake of fire, what is it that can do that? Christ Himself will blot the name of non-overcomers. He Himself will dismember the non-overcomers from His Body. It is not what but Who can do that. In Christ, Samie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2013 Members Share Posted November 15, 2013 Who are you agreeing with and disagreeing with here Gerhard? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Ha Ha Ha,,, had to chuckle over THAT question PK! One that could be asked on just about every other page on this thread. Another good question in this mess would be, "Who's on first?" :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 15, 2013 Members Share Posted November 15, 2013 It was a rather odd post, he had both Gerry and Samie's posts there, and than said he was disagreeing with everything he had been agreeing with??? Just need him to clarify who? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Clairify you say? Good luck with that! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 16, 2013 Members Share Posted November 16, 2013 Clairify you say? Good luck with that! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 16, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2013 Christ Himself will blot the name of non-overcomers. He Himself will dismember the non-overcomers from His Body. It is not what but Who can do that. In Christ, Samie That's the "pure gospel"? If by the grace of God an addict accepts Christ, and a year later in a moment of weakness has a relapse, is he then a failure in overcoming and therefore toast? Is his name blotted out? As you know, all of us carry a lot of baggage. When one accepts Christ as his/her Savior, those baggages do not disappear overnight. At what point would you consider a person to have overcome? And aren't you back, as Gerhard pointed out, to working your way to heaven because now my salvation has become dependent on my success in overcoming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Just back from Sabbath Worship Services. Originally Posted By: Samie Christ Himself will blot the name of non-overcomers. He Himself will dismember the non-overcomers from His Body. It is not what but Who can do that. In Christ, Samie That's the "pure gospel"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 16, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2013 We will pick this up again later, but I would like to go back to the issue of freewill which you deny is present unless one is attached to Christ. How do you understand these verses? ýESV ýýRe 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." This tells me Jesus does not come into our hearts or become part of His body without our consent. ýESV ýýAc 16:30 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” ýý31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Paul & Silas response tells me the jailer was in an unsaved condition until he believed. And if the Ephesians were already saved before they believed, why would Paul call them that they ýESV ýýEph 2:3 "were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind," "children of the devil,: 1 Jn 3:10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 At last, I could respond. Seems technical issues came up... We will pick this up again later, ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Quote A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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