wicklunds Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 I have heard that there are many among us SDA's that do not believe in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity for various reasons. Is our own denomination's belief in the trinity doctrine Biblical with regard to the deity of the Holy Spirit? I have looked at this website: http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/holy_spirit-nature.php it gives a pretty good explanation, but still there is not conclusive evidence to say that the Holy Spirit is anything more than an imparted...Holy Spirit. While I think it might be a stretch to say that the trinity doctrine is the Omega heresy (the Kellogg pantheism being the Alpha of deadly heresies), I am concerned that this doctrine has crept in unawares as a means to make SDA "sectarianism" seem more palatable to the RC Church, and apostate Protestantism. What are your thoughts about the Trinity? Can you agree with it or is it another QOD-type damnable heresy? Let me know, I am sure you will. Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 I am sure that once all the dust has setteled on this subject, Adventism will be found on the wrong side of truth again. Some in this large tent are even suggesting that Jesus was not begotton of the Father. I like these words here in Desire Of Ages "On the bank of the Jordan the heavens were opened and the Spirit descended like a dove upon Me. that scene was but a TOKEN that I am the Son of God. If you believe on me AS SUCH your faith shall be quickened. You shall see that the heavens are opened, and are never to be closed. I have opened them to you." DA 142 ========================= Why I thought that the word "token" was evidence of one's IDENTITY The SOP also states in a few places that "Jesus is the Comforter", why many people I associate with know very well of how He can comfort, with Him being the Comforter. They even refuse to be robbed of this fact by hearsay. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 So Ed, would you say then, that Jesus is a created being? What significance is it to Adventists if they get this concept or doctrine wrong? What other things are affected in their faith? Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Quote: So Ed, would you say then, that Jesus is a created being? What significance is it to Adventists if they get this concept or doctrine wrong? What other things are affected in their faith? No Jesus is not a created being, He is God!!! Because He came from God. I personally believe that when Jesus promised us that He would "NEVER leave or forsake us" is a true statement. He IS THE Comforter in the person of the Holy Spirit to anyone that abides by His conditions. There is only two Gods, not three. Don't you think it strange that of all the meetings behind closed doors when Jesus and His Father were shut in alone working out fallen mans redemption it was always only two persons? Don't you think it strange that Satan has never coveted the "third position" of the Godhead? No it is Jesus that Satan hates and anyone else that attempts to walk in His steps, teaching what Jesus hand delivered to John in the book of Revelation. In 1909 after quoting all of Revelation 6:13-17 and Revelation 7:9-17 she says these words about a class of people in her own church. =============== “In these scriptures two parties are brought to view. One party permitted themselves to be deceived, and took sides with those with whom the Lord has a controversy. They misinterpreted the messages sent them, and clothed themselves in robes of self-righteousness. Sin was not sinful in their eyes. They taught falsehood as truth, and by them many souls were led astray. {GCB, June 1, 1909 par. 19} =============== The way these verses are “misapplied” today in Adventism is right on schedule, leadership is the teacher and refuses to be taught anything from anyone. PERIOD!!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Dennis did you notice the words up there in that quote "The Lord has a controversy with his professed people". You do a search with a few of those words as some out side reading from the R&H articles and you will discover that it is heavens "professed people" that will be urgering Sunday sacredness from SDA pulpits. It may be in book #1 page 405 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 It would not surprise me one bit after what I have been through here. There are classes here where the professors have us go and observe the Sunday Churches to get the right ideas about what a worship service should be like. You would think that we would be trying to let people know about the danger they are in rather than trying to put out the fire with gasoline. It has been one disgusting, and shameful ride. I want to go and hide in a corner and ask God what has happened to the people He entrusted with the true riches. No wonder the judgment begins first with God's professed people. I am speechless about some of the abominable things I have heard here. I truly don't know what to do or say now. And many are happy about that. Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Brother ..."There is NOTHING to hard for the Lord", knowing "that all His biddings are enabelings" you are in safe hands. Was my reasoning off base on the 2 person Godhead? Remember the SOP says of the HS position that it is a mystery and silence is golden. I have tried to have done that over the years, but when a question is asked directly, it is hard to not share some of what I have studied after discarding leaning on man studies guides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 No your reasoning is exactly my position as well. I just finished writing a paper on it and that was the same conclusion I came to. Why is our denominaiton teaching the trinity? I asked a professor here at the college when we started to teach the trinity, and he struggled to tell me. It is as if it has come into our ranks overnight. Not a good sign. Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Dennis send me your study on this subject as I am a novice in this area, as I also am guilty of defending the "trinity" doctrine for YEARS, begining by holding my hand up in my baptism vows. But now heaven looks at my being deceived back then and considers my devotion to mans teachings.He leads us on step by step, my prayer is to never run ahead or resist "a thus sayeth the Lord". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 OK, how would you like me to send it?? Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 >>It would not surprise me one bit after what I have been through here.>> Perhaps, you are being tried by fire. Or, it may be that the Lord is providing you with glimpses into the hearts of others; and perhaps, your empathy and compassion are thereby being animated by Him; after all it is likely that it will be the quality of your love and not the formulation of dogmas, which will take you into the kingdom. >>There are classes here where the professors have us go and observe the Sunday Churches… Christ invited Himself into the homes of sinners. He said that He was come as a physician. He sought out others unlike Himself. Anyway, is there anything that ought to be parsed for one’s own benefit from Matt 28:1? that one might have a ready answer --for him that inquireth… yes? no? How about, (a review of my posits in the ‘Refugee’ thread?) Re: the Sabbaths at law… Lam 2:6 …the Lord hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion,… v9 …the law [is] no [more]… Was there ever, afterwards, a textual reconstitution (ignoring a rededication) of that, which the Lord hath caused to be forgotten? Was Jeremiah a credible witness? Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. How do you interpret Hosea 2:11? The words of Gd through His prophet Hosea could not be more explicit. At a point sometime future to that of Hosea, Gd caused the COI’s mirth, feast days, new moons, sabbaths, and solemn feasts --to cease. It cannot be gotten around, …there remains only the endeavour to understand. >>You would think that we would be trying to let people know about the danger they are in rather than trying to put out the fire with gasoline.<< The time grows short. Soon there will be no Bibles legally owned, distributed, or shared in any manner. The Bible is classified ‘hate literature’ under the provisions of the Genocide Treaty, which Reagan signed into law in 1980. Implementing legislation in the USofA is based on the same Canadian laws. There is now nothing to withstand the implementing of the articles of the treaty. It is only necessary that the UN demand its implementation. (International Treaties supercede even our Constitution) The hold-up may be that Dubya is proving uncooperative in allowing the World Court to have jurisdiction --at this time. Wouldn’t THAT be a hoot! if Dubya is figuratively --one of the angels holding back the winds of the earth…? :-o I imagine that there are Xtians who will be willing to be scofflaws for Christ. It is my considered opinion that such ought consider it advantageous to be made aware of any weaknesses doctrinally held; and to, validate and verify their beliefs before the time to do so is lost. >>It has been one disgusting, and shameful ride.<< Come, come now. A Remnanteer is exhorted to prefer the other person, is he not? that requires a measure of phileo in the appraisal of another’s sharing of themselves with one, does it not? However, if you refer to ‘shunning’, it may be that your .Org has more in common with the Jehovah’s Witnesses than is apparent at first blush. >>I want to go and hide in a corner and ask God what has happened to the people He entrusted with the true riches.<< The true riches are evolving with the outpouring of the Spirit, and moreover, will accelerate. That being said, Gd’s hand is not short that it cannot save. I suppose that means ‘saving’ doctrines, as well, …if so intended. >>I am speechless about some of the abominable things I have heard here. I truly don't know what to do or say now. And many are happy about that.<< If it is about doctrine --refute it; however, if the “abominable things” concern certain allegations of the secular sort…, I agree, --disgusting, abominable, and unconscionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 Quote: >>It has been one disgusting, and shameful ride.<< Come, come now. A Remnanteer is exhorted to prefer the other person, is he not? that requires a measure of phileo in the appraisal of another’s sharing of themselves with one, does it not? However, if you refer to ‘shunning’, it may be that your .Org has more in common with the Jehovah’s Witnesses than is apparent at first blush. If you are implying that I have not been loving to others in spite of differences of opinions and doctrines, then I want to tell you that it seems like I have been in a cage with a Tasmanian Devil for the past three years. I have had few that I have felt comfortable expressing my concerns to because of an unspoken gag-order. It seems as though I have been stuck between a rock and a hard place all this time, and laying your head on a rocky pillow is unforgiving, driving one towards insanity over time. Did you just compare me to a jehovah's Witness?? Scary business. I would ask you why? Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Just a simple query. What is the significance of the command Jesus gave to baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Also, what do you do with this text: Rev 1:4-6 4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come (God the Father), and from the seven spirits before his throne,(Holy Spirit) 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father-- to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. (NIV) Or with this from EGW: The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4} Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 19, 2005 Author Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: Also, what do you do with this text: Rev 1:4-6 4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come (God the Father), and from the seven spirits before his throne,(Holy Spirit) 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father-- to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. (NIV) Or with this from EGW: The eternal heavenly dignitaries--God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit--arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, . . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.--Manuscript 145, 1901. {Ev 616.4} Your friend, Dave M I am so sorry if you are offended at me not agreeing that the trinity doctrine is defendable from either the scriptures or SOP. I am not trying to offend anyone, especially my brothers and sisters in the faith. The problem I see with any of the texts that you cite, and there are a whole bunch of them, is that I cannot see a connection between the Holy Spirit and deity. Even if the spirit is spoken of as a person, I don't see how it is any more than a power from God rather than a person who should be worshipped as God. And above and beyond this, I do not see how this "person" is ever spoken of as part of a monotheistic triune. Please help me understand why I should see it this way. I really would love to be like all the others. I do not long to be strange or peculiar... Thank you. Dennis Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: Quote: >>It has been one disgusting, and shameful ride.<< Come, come now. A Remnanteer is exhorted to prefer the other person, is he not? that requires a measure of phileo in the appraisal of another’s sharing of themselves with one, does it not? However, if you refer to ‘shunning’, it may be that your .Org has more in common with the Jehovah’s Witnesses than is apparent at first blush. >>If you are implying that I have not been loving to others…<< No, not at all, …no imputations, just an amiable chide, considering --the utilization of “disgusting and shameful ride”, which I, in fact, took to be somewhat elliptic. >>…in spite of differences of opinions and doctrines, then I want to tell you that it seems like I have been in a cage with a Tasmanian Devil for the past three years.<< Admittedly, there seemed at times, a certain level of stress in your communications. As far as “differences of opinions and doctrines” go, being in a cage with a … Devil can do nothing but strengthen you, Gd willing. Stay on point and you’ll make it. >>I have had few that I have felt comfortable expressing my concerns to because of an unspoken gag-order. It seems as though I have been stuck between a rock and a hard place all this time, and laying your head on a rocky pillow is unforgiving, driving one towards insanity over time.<< Hey! you chanced upon the right format to express your concerns, though I’ve noticed the Bible and Theology board here is too seldom visited; however, post your thoughts and I guarantee that you’ll have at least one --very seriously reading what you post, though I can’t guarantee he’ll not take issue. Y’know, one Lord, twelve gates… Having said that, you’ll find that he’s more Biblically conservative than even you are. >>Did you just compare me to a jehovah's Witness?? Scary business. I would ask you why?<< Non, non, I was not certain whether “disgusting, and shameful ride” was referring to what I, or others, posted, or whether it was a reference to that bit of… Well, let’s just say that I utilized a Jehovah’s Witness term, as euphemism, for that which seems to be practiced here on these boards similarly, as it is within the community of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It was to that seeming practice of others that I made comparison with Jehovah’s Witnesses. As to ’first blush’…, it was an aside to other similarly-held beliefs of this .Org with those of Jehovah’s Witnesses. As per “Scary business”, I don’t know that I can diss them offhand, as the occasions by which I’ve socialized with them, I found them to be as earnest in devotion to their understandings of things Gdly, as I read of the fathers of this .Org to have been. That being said, as admirable as they are as a people (when’s the last time any of us knocked on someone’s door to share Jesus?), they seem to be in a time-loop; …don’t know if that’s good or no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2005 Re: "It would not surprise me one bit after what I have been through here. There are classes here where the professors have us go and observe the Sunday Churches to get the right ideas about what a worship service should be like. You would think that we would be trying to let people know about the danger they are in rather than trying to put out the fire with gasoline. It has been one disgusting, and shameful ride. I want to go and hide in a corner and ask God what has happened to the people He entrusted with the true riches. No wonder the judgment begins first with God's professed people. I am speechless about some of the abominable things I have heard here. I truly don't know what to do or say now. And many are happy about that." With such feelings, I wonder how you can have either a heathy spiritual life, or a healthy emmotional life. Most people would not be able to come out of such either emotionally or spiritually healthy. I can only say that if you value your spiratual and emmotional health, you may want to consider your organizational relationships. No, I am not attempting to persuade you to leave. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Greg I am sure Dennis must have heard the old college trick of where many on the campus has previously agreed to target a certain individual and suggest to him that he looked SICK, even asking him if he felt OK. After scores of such encounters, the boy went immediately to the dorm & crawled into bed. No Dennis, tell to those engaging in such skullduggery that you are training for the Iron man contest where your perfect health enables you to not only keep up with the footmen, but your stride is to run with the horses someday. ------------------------------ To all...Someone mentioned a 12 step program the other day, well I could say much about those many different diversions that try and rob the gospel of it's power, instead just tell of a 3 step program that I see played out on a daily basis. #1.When truth is finally allowed entrance and the error is being exposed, at first it is denied. #2. Next the error is defended from old over the hill lengthy discourses that never was truth. #3.Those defending error ALWAYS take the next step in then attacking something personal in the life of the messenger boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 19, 2005 Author Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: With such feelings, I wonder how you can have either a heathy spiritual life, or a healthy emmotional life. Most people would not be able to come out of such either emotionally or spiritually healthy. I can only say that if you value your spiratual and emmotional health, you may want to consider your organizational relationships. Obviously you don't see that Elijah had a depressed and emotive response to the injustice and unchecked wickedness in his time. Greg, let me tell you that unless we become like Elijah, I don't believe a one of us will be happy when Jesus comes!! I don't care how much Prozacian sentimentalist gospel you preach to people. We need, above all else in this day and age, to be convinced that there is grave injustice in the land because God's professed people are heaping up abominations so God can cash them in on the day of His wrath. I love all people and I want to be sure that my attitude reflects the awareness of the atrocity of sin during all my days. If I try to hide my head where the lilies smell nice while there is a thick stink pervading the air of human souls, I have lied to both myself and the Holy Spirit about where my duty lies. We are to be a sweet aroma to both heaven and our fellow men. When I stick my nose in the sweet flowery knoll to hide my own and others' stink, I have only masked the smell, not eradicated it. Let us humbly walk with the Lord our God, is my prayer. P.S. Elijah was taken into heaven in a chariot of fire!!! How is that for a reward for being depressed and wearied from the profundity of wickedness? Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Quote: I don't care how much Prozacian sentimentalist gospel you preach to people. What does this mean? Quote: We need, above all else in this day and age, to be convinced that there is grave injustice in the land because God's professed people are heaping up abominations so God can cash them in on the day of His wrath. What abominations? Quote: I love all people and I want to be sure that my attitude reflects the awareness of the atrocity of sin during all my days. If I try to hide my head where the lilies smell nice while there is a thick stink pervading the air of human souls, I have lied to both myself and the Holy Spirit about where my duty lies. We are to be a sweet aroma to both heaven and our fellow men. When I stick my nose in the sweet flowery knoll to hide my own and others' stink, I have only masked the smell, not eradicated it. The final revelation or message to be given to the world is a revelation of the character of God. How do people become aware of their sins? By the presentation of God's character as revealed in the Law and the Gospels. The cross must be the center of your own experience as well as the center of what you preach and teach. Why do you think you have to endure smelling the "stink"? We become like what we dwell on. IF you dwell on the evil in the world or the church, you will become more like this evil. Sweet aroma draws people. Manure drives them away. When Jesus gave His scathing rebukes, there were tears in His eyes and voice. He had the look of injured love. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Dave said this. "The final revelation or message to be given to the world is a revelation of the character of God" ............................ That is a true statement you know [COL 415} then tell me why your website has items other than "love" there? I think job ONE is to tell the truth, which your studies fails to do.Why one of the most LOVING attributes that a loving & lovable person could do is to be truthful. Friend "God's servants are truthful even in the greatest of peril". The SOP say this AFTER David lied when he was first fleeing Saul. If he had only told the truth those priest in the temple could have fled Saul army & not been slain for protecting David. But with mady people "a lie believed and practiced, to them it becomes truth". No this is a cop out when someone may have to admit that what they teach is wrong, they immediately pull out the trump card and say "Folks we should be focusing more and more on love". It was a loving act for John The Baptist to lay the act at the root of the tree. It was a loving act when the Saviour caused that fig tree to wither up and die for pretending to be what it was not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 >>It was a loving act for John The Baptist to lay the act at the root of the tree. It was a loving act when the Saviour caused that fig tree to wither up and die for pretending to be what it was not.<< or, for overturning the tables of the merchants whilst administering the scourge... Why? did Jesus become so upset over exchange and mercantilism? after all, the buying and selling was actually being conducted in the outer yards where even gentiles were permitted and --not in the 'house'…? hmmm, what was the ‘house’ of the Father that was being referred-to? Jn 2:17 …The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up. “of thine house”? It is not a typo which should read, “zeal for thine house” What was this “zeal” which ate at Jesus? this “zeal of thine house”… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Quote: >>It was a loving act for John The Baptist to lay the act at the root of the tree. It was a loving act when the Saviour caused that fig tree to wither up and die for pretending to be what it was not.<< or, for overturning the tables of the merchants whilst administering the scourge... Yes...Jesus made a whip, but we have no record that He used it on anyone; indeed, He likely used it to herd the cattle and sheep, and the humans merely swept out with the flow. It was not the whip in His hand as much as the authority in His voice and manner that caused the moneychangers to flee. Jesus didn't kill anyone; He didn't touch anyone, so far as the record states.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Foster Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 I have encountered many Adventists that deny the trinity; in fact we had a group not long ago come to our Wednesday night prayer meeting and made a presentation proving that there was only one Father and one Son.In there presentation they even stated that Jesus had said on occassion that He would be their father, which muddied the water. For me, John 16:7 & 8 are key, where Jesus states 'another helper'; and will send 'Him to you'; and 'He' will convict; it is obvious that in this case in every translation Jesus is rreferring to another entityn other than himself or the Father. I admit, there is much Scripture that points to the Spirit as being the spirit of the Father and the Son. As long as He dwells in me, sent from the Father, and glorifying the Son, I question not that which I do not know. Here again, both Ezekiel and Zechariah point out undentifying explanations of the Spirit and its functions. Quote Striving for a better relationship with Him! Gus Foster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted May 22, 2005 Share Posted May 22, 2005 If there is only God the Father, God the Son, why did Jesus instruct his followers to baptise in the name of the Spirit as well? Why did he suggest that he would send "another helper/comforter" Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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