LifeHiscost Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Quote: If there is only God the Father, God the Son, why did Jesus instruct his followers to baptise in the name of the Spirit as well? Why did he suggest that he would send "another helper/comforter" [:"red"] "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! " [/] Deut 6:4 NASB [:"red"] "Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. " [/] Mark 12:29 NLT [:"red"] "I and my Father are one." [/] John 10:30 KJV [:"red"] "Can you find out the deep things of God, or can you by searching find out the limits of the Almighty [explore His depths, ascend to His heights, extend to His breadths, and comprehend His infinite perfection]?" [/] Job 11:7 AMP [:"red"] "The angel replied, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby born to you will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. " [/] Luke 1:35 NLT To try to explain God with other than the Word, is to add more information about Him than He is willing to entrust to us. Those who attempt such are in danger of placing themselves on the same side as another who felt himself as, or more qualified than the Most High God. [:"red"] "Then Job replied to the LORD: "I know that you can do anything, and no one can stop you. You ask, `Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?' It is I. And I was talking about things I did not understand, things far too wonderful for me. "You said, `Listen and I will speak! I have some questions for you, and you must answer them.' "I had heard about you before, but now I have seen you with my own eyes. I take back everything I said, and I sit in dust and ashes to show my repentance."[/] Job 42:1-6 NLT Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 With due respect LHC, you have confused me even more!! Whilst I recognise that scripture can answer the questions, have your texts done so? If I have missed it please show me. Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 David said this. "With due respect LHC, you have confused me even more!!" ==================================== Now there are a economy of words that should be set in STONE!!! Yes, CONFUSION is the bottom line with people using these spurious translations to cause people to never say their memory verses anymore and start mumbling over beads on a string...But for me & my house I will keep my distance from such nonsence. "Go and do likewise" is the best advice on plantet earth!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 Quote: I have encountered many Adventists that deny the trinity; in fact we had a group not long ago come to our Wednesday night prayer meeting and made a presentation proving that there was only one Father and one Son.In there presentation they even stated that Jesus had said on occassion that He would be their father, which muddied the water. For me, John 16:7 & 8 are key, where Jesus states 'another helper'; and will send 'Him to you'; and 'He' will convict; it is obvious that in this case in every translation Jesus is rreferring to another entityn other than himself or the Father. I admit, there is much Scripture that points to the Spirit as being the spirit of the Father and the Son. As long as He dwells in me, sent from the Father, and glorifying the Son, I question not that which I do not know. Here again, both Ezekiel and Zechariah point out undentifying explanations of the Spirit and its functions. This post (as do all the others) leaves the initial question unanswered. Can we substantiate that the Holy Spirit is God, or part of a God-"triune"? I will need more to convince me that this is not some form of capitulation to a Romish inroads. Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Wicklunds For clarity. Is your position that there is God the Father, God the Son and that the spirit is some kind of .... I dunno, you tell me!!?? Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted May 23, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 23, 2005 The mystery of the nature of God is deep: we just really don't even have the mental categories or even metaphors to try to understand the notion of one God in three (or two) persons. To say that the Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, and therefore not a separate person is one way of thinking about it, but if the Father sends the Spirit to comfort us, and that is indistinguishable from our perspective from the Spirit being a third person... As bevin has noted elsewhere, 'a difference that makes no difference is no difference'. God is God - immortal, invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, transcendent, immanent. I'm completely willing to admit that I don't understand his nature fully, and that it will be something I'll need to continue learning about throughout eternity. I'm certainly not confident enough with the tiny amount of knowledge I have now to abominate my brothers and sisters as heretics... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Foster Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Quote: I have encountered many Adventists that deny the trinity; in fact we had a group not long ago come to our Wednesday night prayer meeting and made a presentation proving that there was only one Father and one Son.In there presentation they even stated that Jesus had said on occassion that He would be their father, which muddied the water. For me, John 16:7 & 8 are key, where Jesus states 'another helper'; and will send 'Him to you'; and 'He' will convict; it is obvious that in this case in every translation Jesus is rreferring to another entityn other than himself or the Father. I admit, there is much Scripture that points to the Spirit as being the spirit of the Father and the Son. As long as He dwells in me, sent from the Father, and glorifying the Son, I question not that which I do not know. Here again, both Ezekiel and Zechariah point out undentifying explanations of the Spirit and its functions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This post (as do all the others) leaves the initial question unanswered. Can we substantiate that the Holy Spirit is God, or part of a God-"triune"? I will need more to convince me that this is not some form of capitulation to a Romish inroads. You know, I was never aware that the trinity was a "Romish" doctrine until a few years ago. For those who deny the trinity, they accuse ignorance on the part of those simple ones who simply accept Scripture as written; that 'another', 'He', and 'Him' represents someone else other than the Father, and the Son who is speaking. One thing I know, I desparately need the Holy Spirit in my life constantly, consistantly, without interuption, and through the close of probation and to rise to meet Jesus. Since the creation story pictures 'Him' as the agent acting on Jesus' creative commands, it would seem prudent to include 'Him' in all my thoughts and activities. Quote Striving for a better relationship with Him! Gus Foster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Foster Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 I am sure that once all the dust has setteled on this subject, Adventism will be found on the wrong side of truth again. Some in this large tent are even suggesting that Jesus was not begotton of the Father. I like these words here in Desire Of Ages Ed: I am troubled by your frontal attacks on Adventists believers, and your total lack of compassion and disregard for others opinion. It would seem that you have placed yourself on a higher plane and assumed the high priestly position of judge and jury, and that your words and responses are far superior to most others. Most of the topics which you assume total knowlege and command have been controversial for ages, and I see no minds changed nor 'light' given by your approach. Why has dissent become your major thrust, and what do you hope to accomplish? Do you not know that every soul is struggling, and groping for His garment, and in torment for other souls to know their Jesus? Have you actually condemned all who see things differently than you to some eternal darkness? Do you have a purpose, or just a state of being? In some respects you act like the angel guarding the gate to the garden, thrusting away all those who do not wear the robe that you designed. The climb is steep and cumbersome enough, and a helping hand would suffice. Quote Striving for a better relationship with Him! Gus Foster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Quote: With due respect LHC, you have confused me even more!! Whilst I recognise that scripture can answer the questions, have your texts done so? If I have missed it please show me. Thank you for your respect, Dave. Sorry to be unclear. The texts speak plainly to me if to no one else. Perhaps the post of Bravus, dated May 23, '05, 8:50AM might be more sufficient to answer whatever questions my post may have raised. I found his post highly informative, but would have to say that because I believe most if not all of what it stated to be true. I have never seen the subject of the "Trinity" discussed by normally intelligent people, that has ever brought any large measure of "enlightenment" to others. Since "Trinity" is not a Word Jesus or His Biblical servants ever coined, I've found the words of Jesus best in defining Divinity. If that isn't sufficient in explaining all the characteristics about the "Trinity", I have no source more enlightening to refer to, least of all any comments not from the Scripture, that are inconsistent with what has already been revealed from the Word. There was another post I read tonight, by another respected poster, can't remember right now who, who spent most of the post acknowledging his dependence on the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure whether he ever mentioned the "Trinity" but I have to agree with him also about the need for the Holy Spirit in the life of the disciple of Christ. Is the Holy Spirit a member of Diety? I believe so. Do I understand all the implications from that belief? No! Can I explain the Holy Spirit? To the best of my ability as revealed by the Word, and even these, only by the grace of God. [:"red"] "Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit." [/] John 3:8 NLT At least to some degree, the explanation of Diety is still shrouded to fallen man, in the mystery of godliness. [:"red"] "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." [/] 1 Tim 3:16 NKJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Apparently, I have been wrong about this subject. Though the White estate does say that Ellen White never used the word "trinity" to describe the godhead, she does explain: The Holy Spirit always leads to the written word. The Holy Spirit is a person; for he beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. What strong evidence of the power of truth we can give to believers and unbelievers when we can voice the words of John, "We have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." The Holy Spirit has a personality, else he could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else he could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. "For what man knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man, which is in him; even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." I still fall short of referring to the third person of the Godhead united with the Father and Jesus the Son as the trinity. Maybe I will need to fast and pray about this. For much interesting testimony from her on this subject I recommend: http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/faq-egw.html Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 This was also interesting with respect to our subject (found at the link I posted above): What did Ellen White believe regarding the Godhead? Ellen White never used the term "trinity," although she did refer to the "three living persons of the heavenly trio" (Evangelism, p. 615). She believed in the full deity of Christ, stating that "Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore" (Review and Herald, April 5, 1906). She also referred to the Holy Spirit as "the Third Person of the Godhead" (The Desire of Ages, p. 671). Her comments, as collected in Evangelism, pages 613-617, suggest that she believed that the Scriptures taught the existence of three co-eternal divine persons. Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 wow! This is also a very good piece on the Trinity and our early church thinkers: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Dennis said. "Apparently, I have been wrong about this subject." ============================== Dennis just make sure you are not putting your trust in those with a interest to protect. Claim James 5:16 everytime you open your bible as there are silver tongue orators out there that are deceived themselves. ============================ "To all those that are so sure they KNOW that there is another exalted person in heaven other than the Son & the Father have a better mind that mine, because the SOP plainly tells each one of us that “the Holy Spirit is a mystery and NO ONE can explain it, and silence is golden over this subject.” And to those that say God has no Son... “God is the Father of Christ; Christ is the Son of God. To Christ has been given an exalted position. He has been made equal with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son. {8T 268.3} “The Father and the Son engaged in the mighty, wondrous work they had contemplated, of creating the world.” ST 1/9/1879 “The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. His word was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was he to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon it. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him. Satan was jealous and envious of Jesus Christ.” ST 1/9/1879 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Quote: wow! This is also a very good piece on the Trinity and our early church thinkers: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm I personally don’t take much stock in this documentation furnished by the White Estate from this website above, especially when the author of this article doesn’t know the difference between two years & three years. His words. “For instance, after her first vision in December 1844, she continued to observe Sunday as the Sabbath for almost three more years. She had not yet learned about the seventh-day Sabbath” ======================== “In the autumn of 1846 we began to observe the Bible Sabbath, and to teach and defend it.” 1T 75 One will be like a fish out of water when reading books about what Sr. White taught,for many reason I take all my doctrines from the KJV and from the SOP original books. Why??? Because of this instruction. “I said, "If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read her published books. My labors would be naught should I preach another gospel. That which I have written is what the Lord has bidden me write. I have not been instructed to change that which I have sent out. I stand firm in the Adventist faith; for I have been warned in regard to the seducing sophistries that will seek for entrance among us as a people. The Scripture says, 'Some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.' I present before our people the danger of being led astray as were the angels in the heavenly courts. The straight line of truth presented to me when I was but a girl is just as clearly presented to me now." {RH, January 26, 1905 par. 19} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Quote: wow! This is also a very good piece on the Trinity and our early church thinkers: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm I personally don’t take much stock in this documentation furnished by the White Estate from this website above, especially when the author of this article doesn’t know the difference between two years & three years. His words. “For instance, after her first vision in December 1844, she continued to observe Sunday as the Sabbath for almost three more years. She had not yet learned about the seventh-day Sabbath” ======================== “In the autumn of 1846 we began to observe the Bible Sabbath, and to teach and defend it.” 1T 75 One will be like a fish out of water when reading books about what Sr. White taught,for many reason I take all my doctrines from the KJV and from the SOP original books. Why??? Because of this instruction. “I said, "If any of the citizens of Battle Creek wish to know what Mrs. White believes and teaches, let them read her published books. My labors would be naught should I preach another gospel. That which I have written is what the Lord has bidden me write. I have not been instructed to change that which I have sent out. I stand firm in the Adventist faith; for I have been warned in regard to the seducing sophistries that will seek for entrance among us as a people. The Scripture says, 'Some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.' I present before our people the danger of being led astray as were the angels in the heavenly courts. The straight line of truth presented to me when I was but a girl is just as clearly presented to me now." {RH, January 26, 1905 par. 19} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Those are excellent quotes Ed. I wonder if our Church elect have considered this when forming the Fundamental doctrine of the "Trinity". Here is some more: It is not essential for us to be able to define just what the Holy Spirit is. Christ tells us that the Spirit is the Comforter, "the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father." It is plainly declared regarding the Holy Spirit that, in His work of guiding men into all truth, "He shall not speak of Himself." John 15:26; 16:13. 52 {AA 51.3} The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden. {AA 52.1} The office of the Holy Spirit is distinctly specified in the words of Christ: "When He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment." John 16:8. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. If the sinner responds to the quickening influence of the Spirit, he will be brought to repentance and aroused to the importance of obeying the divine requirements. {AA 52.2} In light of this quote, I am still unchanged as to my first post. Where is the evidence of this "Trinity" doctrine?? C'mon now, let me have it, I want to know where I am wrong here. This is very important because if we follow a certain line of thinking, we can end up like Kellogg and wander off into pantheism. (God (by His Spirit) is in everything)<--this is not my thought, but a Pantheist's. Dennis Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 I am with Bravus on this one. We have such a limited understanding of God's inner workings that the description "three in one" actually tells us VERY little. Heck - I can't even decide if *I* am one person. I don't even understand that phrase - and if you think you do, then you just don't understand the problems... /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 24, 2005 Author Share Posted May 24, 2005 Maybe the typical definition of what a soul is would help. Body+breath of life=a living soul??? Maybe not...Maybe? Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Quote: Body+breath of life=a living soul??? So, there is an interesting girl living in the American mid-west - she/they has two heads/one torso, both heads fully functional. There was an interesting Life? NG? article about her maybe ten years ago. Is she one or two living souls? There are people living today who were under ice-cold water for almost an hour, brought out completely breathless, and revived. When they were unconscious and breathless, were they a living soul? /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Are those the norm, or God's plan for humanity? Obviously comparing ourselves with God is not really giving credence to the concept of the doctrine of the trinity. Lets keep on target please. Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted May 25, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 25, 2005 I don't think we're comparing ourselves with God here. What we're doing is comparing the magnitude of our knowledge of God with the full magnitude of God Himself (which we can't even fully comprehend). When we make that comparison, it's not contributing to either an affirmation or denial of the doctrine of the trinity, but to an acknowledgement that the true nature of God remains beyond our ability to fully understand. We can develop a partial understanding, and through prayer and Bible study and nature study and Christian community and Ellen White's writings and the writings of other Christians who are attempting to understand, can keep growing in our understanding. But a recognition that our understanding is finite and God is infinite just makes us less willing to get into a knockdown-dragout fight about the fine detail of God's nature. In the same way, I have some knowledge of oh... take art history as an example. But I *know* that my knowledge in that field is minute compared to all there is to know, so there's no way in the world I'd be willing to argue vehemently that, for example, the pleinairists were not a major influence on the early Impressionists. I just recognise the limits of my knowledge... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wicklunds Posted May 25, 2005 Author Share Posted May 25, 2005 Do you and Bevin speak for each other? The topic is the Trinity, lets keep it there if at all possible please. Quote It is a backsliding church that lessens the distance between itself and the Papacy. {ST, February 19, 1894 par. 4} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 “How essential that we have the enlightenment of the Spirit of God; for thus only can we see the glory of Christ, and by beholding become changed from character to character in and through faith in Christ. . . . He has grace and pardon for every soul. As by faith we look to Jesus, our faith pierces the shadow, and we adore God for His wondrous love in giving us Jesus the Comforter.” {SD 124.4} “So deceitful is the human heart, so skillfully do the cherished passions justify themselves, that many will pass on in deception, satisfied with counterfeit religion and fraudulent sanctification, until probation closes, and the harvest is past. {ST, February 24, 1890 par. 6} ================================================= "we adore God for His wondrous love in giving us Jesus the Comforter" Now anyone that knows Jesus, knows He is "A" comforter with a small "c". But this quote says that Jesus is "the Comforter". That is with a capitol "C". =============== One of the rules that the harlot church established from the get-go of starting this trinity doctrine is allowing each person to have their own private interpertation as long as they clung to their initial error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gus Foster Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Quote: Apparently, I have been wrong about this subject. Though the White estate does say that Ellen White never used the word "trinity" to describe the godhead, she does explain Quote: I still fall short of referring to the third person of the Godhead united with the Father and Jesus the Son as the trinity. Maybe I will need to fast and pray about this I have found in my studies that EGW never refered to the 'trinity' but always to the 'godhead'. I suspect this is becasue of shying away from Cahtolic doctrine; it is difficult to condemn a denomination and to adhere to some of its teaching. There are many other quotes from Ellen about this subject, and it would seem there was controversy over this with our fore-fathers. With her Methodist background, it never seems to be a question with her. Quote Striving for a better relationship with Him! Gus Foster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted May 25, 2005 Moderators Share Posted May 25, 2005 No, bevin and I don't speak for each other, I was speaking for myself, and I was speaking about the way I think about the trinity. I was specifically responding to your request to keep it on that topic - just because I address the topic in a different manner from the way you do, doesn't mean I've gone off topic. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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