JawgeFromJawja Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Since I was a new Christian at the ripe old age of 9,now 65 years ago, the doctrine of The Trinity has bothered me. There are Scriptural hints at the doctrine, but they seem rather fuzzy to me.The Holy Spirit seemed a dark entity perhaps in a black hood in my childhood. There is no doubt about God's being a Spirit - John 4:24. And we have Jesus' statement "I and my Father are One." That almost got Him stoned. My prayers are always to God, in the Name of Jesus. I recall once in late childhood that my Baptist pastor directly addressed The Holy Spirit in prayer.(He baptized me, he married us, but he won't be present for my next church event. He died in his 90s.) What are your concepts of each of the personalities of The Trinity, as relating to The Trinity? Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 13, 2012 Members Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well JawgeFromJawga, I have no problem with the Trinity, as they are, God the Father, Glod the Son and God the HS. I don't see it wrong to believe in the Trinity or not. Does it hurt us to believe or not to believe? I don't think so. Besides I believe there are matters that we will never know until we get to heaven. And that doesn't bother me either. I've never thought it was anything to dwell upon. Does it help or hinder our salvation? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well JawgeFromJawga, I have no problem with the Trinity, as they are, God the Father, Glod the Son and God the HS. I don't see it wrong to believe in the Trinity or not. Does it hurt us to believe or not to believe? I don't think so. Besides I believe there are matters that we will never know until we get to heaven. And that doesn't bother me either. I've never thought it was anything to dwell upon. Does it help or hinder our salvation? I don't think it has anything to do with salvation. Unfortunately, untold numbers of people have been burned, hanged, or simply excommunicated for their belief or lack of belief in The Trinity. Jawge Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatisthis Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Do not burn, hang, or torture anyone over any spiritual issue! That's my thought. But on the Trinity it makes a great dif to me that the LORD our Lord is one LORD and that there are three persons, not because of the fact that there are three, but because of WHO God is, as I get to know God it matters to me that all that is involved in God is in God. Does this make any sense to you or am I as usual stumbling over my own tongue!? Quote more later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 15, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 15, 2012 We only need to recognize what the Bible says about God. We don't need to know all the details or else God would have revealed them to us. What does the Bible say about God? That the Father is a personal God; that Christ is God; and that the Holy Spirit is God, and that these three divine Persons are one God--- not one in person but One in nature, character, and purpose. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 What are your concepts of each of the personalities of The Trinity, as relating to The Trinity? Leaving off the word "trinity" as the traditional doctrine (which I believe you are referring to ) always reminds me of some kind of 3-headed something... What are my concepts of each of the Personalities? Absolute humility. The Father gives all the glory to the Son and stays in the background. The Holy Spirit, Who inspires the scriptures, gives little recognition to Himself, directing all attention to the Father and Son. The Son continually points us to the Father, ever seeking to vindicate His character, and to the HS as our great Comforter and Teacher. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overaged Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 My prayers are always to God, in the Name of Jesus. Quote "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Do not burn, hang, or torture anyone over any spiritual issue! That's my thought. But on the Trinity it makes a great dif to me that the LORD our Lord is one LORD and that there are three persons, not because of the fact that there are three, but because of WHO God is, as I get to know God it matters to me that all that is involved in God is in God. Does this make any sense to you or am I as usual stumbling over my own tongue!? No stumbling. Ya done good. Your thinking is emotionally helpful, but does not help me intellectually. (Not being an intellectual giant to begin with.)Thanks for that. Some may have noticed that I usually capitalize references to Jesus (He, Him, His, etc.) Jesus is my God, not "a" God, as one group would interpret John 1: 1 and 2. Still, what does it all mean, "meaning" being mostly an intellectual type facility? Agape, George Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 We only need to recognize what the Bible says about God. We don't need to know all the details or else God would have revealed them to us. What does the Bible say about God? That the Father is a personal God; that Christ is God; and that the Holy Spirit is God, and that these three divine Persons are one God--- not one in person but One in nature, character, and purpose. Well, OKAY. Somewhat more intellectual. Every little bit helps. I shall still separate The Father and The Son in my prayers, to The Father, in the Name of Jesus Christ. Agape, George Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 I shall still separate The Father and The Son in my prayers, to The Father, in the Name of Jesus Christ. Agape, George Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, in his, Jesus' name. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja What are your concepts of each of the personalities of The Trinity, as relating to The Trinity? Leaving off the word "trinity" as the traditional doctrine (which I believe you are referring to ) always reminds me of some kind of 3-headed something... What are my concepts of each of the Personalities? Absolute humility. The Father gives all the glory to the Son and stays in the background. The Holy Spirit, Who inspires the scriptures, gives little recognition to Himself, directing all attention to the Father and Son. The Son continually points us to the Father, ever seeking to vindicate His character, and to the HS as our great Comforter and Teacher. Great, Teresa! A buncha behavioral characteristics, which we could classify with the psychological. Largely emotional, with your concept of "Absolute humility". Don't misunderstand me: the emotions are an aspect of our minds. (A mind is the sum total of energy directed by or influencing a conscious state.) Yeah. Perhaps in the dark recesses of my mind, "trinity" did conjure up visions of a three headed deity sort of like a Hindu concept. Again, helpful. All helpful. Like the six blind men describing an elephant. Trunk is like a hose, tusk is like a spear, leg is like a tree, tail is like a rope, body is like a wall, ear is like a matt. They were all correct. Agape. Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 Do not burn, hang, or torture anyone over any spiritual issue! That's my thought. But on the Trinity it makes a great dif to me that the LORD our Lord is one LORD and that there are three persons, not because of the fact that there are three, but because of WHO God is, as I get to know God it matters to me that all that is involved in God is in God. Does this make any sense to you or am I as usual stumbling over my own tongue!? You left off excommunication. Throw out all the bums who don't see things exactly as we do. Shun 'em! Give 'em the ole cold shoulder! Silence them in every way possible - they may have something something truthful to say that would shake the very foundations of our concepts. Thank God Adventists and Baptists don't have a formal system of shunning. Agape Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 JawgeFromJawja wrote: “My prayers are always to God, in the Name of Jesus.” I found 99 references to the “name of Jesus” in the New Testament. Everything was done in said name. Not only that, but there is not a single instance of anyone being baptized with the Trinitarian formula in the NT. Eusebius, who had access to older manuscripts than the ones in existence today, did some extensive research and concluded that the original reading of Matthew 28:19 had only the name of Jesus. There are nearly 20 quotations of said passage by Eusebius where the triune name does not appear. History records the burning of entire libraries by Trinitarians and there was a concerted effort to burn older manuscripts. All this tends to support the theory that Matthew 28:19 was fraudulently modified in order to provide a support for the pagan Trinity doctrine which was borrowed from paganism. Notice that an early reference to baptism does not include the threefold name. Peter in his sermon did not say that his hearers needed to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but simply the name of Jesus.” If the text found in Matthew 28:19 is genuine, we should find at least one example of baptism performed with said Trinitarian formula. “Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” [Acts 2:38] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hecate, for one, was 3-headed, but generally speaking pagan trios were part of the larger polytheism. I think the traditional "trinity" concept was a unique product developed by pagan Greek philosophers turned Christian. An attempt to explain the unexplainable with Greek philosophy. As I understand it anyway. But I don't think this is where Jawge is quite wanting to go. Maybe he would like us to think about the character traits of Father, Son and HS. If I am right, I hope we "get into it". We don't spend enough time thinking about them that way other than to say, "God is love". ----- In that light, since you bring up "name"...name is another word for character. What is the character of the Trio? ---- Am I close Jawge, or not quite? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 [quote name='teresaq(sda)In that light' date=' since you bring up "name"...name is another word for character. What is the character of the Trio? [/quote'] How can we talk abodut the character of the "Trio" if we don't have a trio, but rather a duo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 Nic Samojluk, that was a superb use of Scripture and history to shed light on the topic of The Trinity. Your post was illuminating of Scriptural Truth rather than religious doctrine. Agape Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hecate, for one, was 3-headed, but generally speaking pagan trios were part of the larger polytheism. I think the traditional "trinity" concept was a unique product developed by pagan Greek philosophers turned Christian. An attempt to explain the unexplainable with Greek philosophy. As I understand it anyway. But I don't think this is where Jawge is quite wanting to go. Maybe he would like us to think about the character traits of Father, Son and HS. If I am right, I hope we "get into it". We don't spend enough time thinking about them that way other than to say, "God is love". ----- In that light, since you bring up "name"...name is another word for character. What is the character of the Trio? ---- Am I close Jawge, or not quite? http://clubadventist.com/forum/images/icons/default/thumbs_up.gif Yes, great, Teresa! Thanks. Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda )In that light, since you bring up "name"...name is another word for character. What is the character of the Trio? How can we talk abodut the character of the "Trio" if we don't have a trio, but rather a duo? You can have whatever you want. I believe in the Trio. LOL Ummmm, that's a, period, end of subject, statement. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 21, 2012 Members Share Posted July 21, 2012 You can have whatever you want. I believe in the Trio. LOL Ummmm, that's a, period, end of subject, statement. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators LynnDel Posted July 21, 2012 Moderators Share Posted July 21, 2012 I have seen our teaching about the Godhead change in my lifetime. I am not sure whether it has really changed, or that in my moving about the country I came across different local teachings. Early on, back when I was in Primary Sabbath School (yes, the little kids listen!), we were taught that there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but that they weren't really three separate beings, but they weren't really one either. It was all so confusing. We were told that God was such a complex personality that we probably would not be able to understand the three-in-one concept this side of heaven. I believe that is true. We keep trying to put a handle on it, but I think a combination of the mystery of God, and some fiddling with translations has made it hard to understand. More recently it is commonly taught that the Godhead are three separate beings, all with the same purpose. That is easy for us to understand. No problem there. I am not sure I agree with it completely. These verses are intriguing: John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Why was the Comforter going to be given only after Jesus left? Some say that this prove Jesus WAS the Holy Spirit, but in these verses, Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit in the third person. Anyway, back to JJ's question - the character of the "trio" is love; God is focused on our salvation. That is the name given Jesus (before the Greek transliteration came into common usage) -- Yahshua -- God our Savior, or Salvation. What a wonderful name! LD Quote LD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 21, 2012 Members Share Posted July 21, 2012 These verses are intriguing: John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Why was the Comforter going to be given only after Jesus left? Some say that this prove Jesus WAS the Holy Spirit, but in these verses, Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit in the third person. LD I agree 100% LD. Not only that, if we do believe that Christ enter the MHP in 1844, than how can he be the HS at the same time? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JawgeFromJawja Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 I have seen our teaching about the Godhead change in my lifetime. I am not sure whether it has really changed, or that in my moving about the country I came across different local teachings. Early on, back when I was in Primary Sabbath School (yes, the little kids listen!), we were taught that there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but that they weren't really three separate beings, but they weren't really one either. It was all so confusing. We were told that God was such a complex personality that we probably would not be able to understand the three-in-one concept this side of heaven. I believe that is true. We keep trying to put a handle on it, but I think a combination of the mystery of God, and some fiddling with translations has made it hard to understand. More recently it is commonly taught that the Godhead are three separate beings, all with the same purpose. That is easy for us to understand. No problem there. I am not sure I agree with it completely. On consideration, I don't think this teaching approaches the intentionally occult meaning originally intended by Trinitarians. They would probably consider this teaching to be lacking in substance, or at best, wimpy. Doctrines that change are quite possibly doctrines of no real substance. --- Jawge These verses are intriguing: John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Why was the Comforter going to be given only after Jesus left? Some say that this prove Jesus WAS the Holy Spirit, but in these verses, Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit in the third person. Very intriguing, LynnDel. But thank you for pointing out these two very relevant verses. --- Jawge Anyway, back to JJ's question - the character of the "trio" is love; God is focused on our salvation. That is the name given Jesus (before the Greek transliteration came into common usage) -- Yahshua -- God our Savior, or Salvation. What a wonderful name! LD "we were taught that there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but that they weren't really three separate beings, but they weren't really one either. It was all so confusing." It is reassuring to find others who are or were confused. This statement about The Trinity is the most confusing of all. --- Jawge "We were told that God was such a complex personality that we probably would not be able to understand the three-in-one concept this side of heaven." As far as this explanation (or lack of explanation) for an abstruse doctrine,I have always thought that it was a cop-out for a null doctrine. After all,anyone sufficiently computer savvy to be on Club Adventist is smart enough to understand any conceivable relationship related to space/time, and probably most energy relationships, not to mention psychology, which seems to me the closest discipline related to Three Personalities in One and One Personality in Three. --- Jawge Thoughtful post, LynnDel! And this topic could use a lot of thought. Quote JawgeFromJawja Pro 5:18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. (Thank you, Lord. She is my heart and soul.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 LynnDel wrote: “These verses are intriguing: John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Why was the Comforter going to be given only after Jesus left? Some say that this prove Jesus WAS the Holy Spirit, but in these verses, Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit in the third person.” Try reading the John 14 passage without the Trinitarian glasses. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Notice that Jesus affirms that the disciples already know him, because he lives with them, and that he will come back to them. Jesus is talking about himself who was living with the disciples. He promised to come back to them but in an physically invisible form. And you should not be surprised that Jesus used the third person to refer to himself. He used the third person more than once when talking about himself. Here are two examples, and there are more: "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." [John 8:18] 25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 pkrause wrote: “I agree 100% LD. Not only that, if we do believe that Christ enter the MHP in 1844, than how can he be the HS at the same time?” That’s a big “If.” Have you read the following text? It is talking about past teense in the first century. Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the throne of God—not in 1844 but following his ascension. "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” [Rev. 12:2] Is there a place in heaven more holy than God's throne? Isn't God's throne the "Most Holy" place in heaven? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Notice that Jesus affirms that the disciples already know him, because he lives with them, and that he will come back to them. Jesus is talking about himself who was living with the disciples. He promised to come back to them but in an physically invisible form. And you should not be surprised that Jesus used the third person to refer to himself. He used the third person more than once when talking about himself. Here are two examples, and there are more: "I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me." [John 8:18] 25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.” Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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