The Trinity - a Fuzzy Seeming Doctrine

July 24, 2012

I just found this thread. There were two of my professors who made similar explanations which has helped me a lot. The first was my professor at Atlantic Union College, John Wood McCaull, and the second my professor over in Israel Dr. Jim Fleming who was a professor at Hebrew University www.biblicalresources.net and www.explorationsinantiquity.com

Dr. Fleming said that one of his coluges from Hebrew University, a Jewish Rabbi who is the world's leading scholar on second temple Judiasm, had discovered that the doctrine of the trinity was actually taught by the Rabbis in the second temple, that it was designed to explain Old Testament Consepts into western Greek though. That it was divided between Christians and Jews in the split of 135 AD where the church began emphesising the threeness and Jews the oneness. Fleming discribed it as picturing a mountain where you cannot see the top because the top is covered over by clouds. We cannot see what is above the clouds, but we can expirence what is above the clouds by expirencing what is revealed below the cloud. The cloud represents the infinite, what is outside of time and space, which our finite minds can not comprehend. (now getting a litte into Wood-McCaull) Since finite minds can not comprehend the infinite if God did not self reveal himself to us we would not know that God exists. So God is not only infinite, outside of time and space, but has revealed himself inside of time and space.

Now there are three things we need to know about God. First we need to know that he is alpowerful and creator, much greater than we can understand, so we have God the Father, God as power, the great unapproachable light, the deep darkness, where angels need to viel their faces.

But if this was all we had of God, God would be very scary, and we would have been prone to worship God out of fear rather than faith. That would be sin and it would sepperate us from the life sourse thus kill us. So this revelation of God was necessary but insufficient.

We needed to also know that God is our friend, one of us. One we can be close to. Thus we have the revelation of God the Son. Appearing to the angels as another angel. Appearing to people in the Old Testament, usually as another human, it is safe to assume from the evidence that he appeared to the beings on the other planets as one of them, until he took on one last form that he will keep through out the rest of eternity, that of the human Jesus.

If God only reveiled himself in Jesus, we would know that God is loving and our friend, but what would make him so special, why are his vews better than ours? The closeness and friendlyness of God is necessary but insufficient, So we need to know that this close friend of ours is still the one great all knowing power who sits on the throne, that he is indeed God.

Now these two views are both necessary and need to be ballanced out by each other, either one being insufficient by itself. But even these two are insufficient because we are both objective and subjective.

Wood-McCaull gives a story about a convention for criminal lawyers. As the keynote speaker started his speach someone came in and shot the speaker to death infront of all the other lawyers and judges there. The police came to investigate the murder and took statements from all the lawyers and judges who were eye witnesses to this murder. The next evening the man who was to have been the keynote speaker the night before, the man they saw murdered came on the platform and gave a lecture about eyewitnesses, pointing out how the "murder" was carefully coriographed, what actually happened and how did these eyewitnesses interpet what happened.

We have to objective revelation of God the Father and God the Son, but we need God to reveal himself as working with our subjective expirence, thus we have God the Holy Spirit.

If we only had the Holy Spirit, it would only be God working with our subjective expirence with nothing objective that we could compare our expirence to, and we'd be like eastern religions or a church board meeting where everyone with conflecting views argue that they are moved by the spirit to their convictions. We need to have the two objective revelations and the Holy Spirit to help us notice things about these objective revelations to apply it to our subjective expirence.

God as Power, God as loving Friend and God working not only out there but intamately with our expirence and working with us personally are both necessary and together suffienct. Now notice I did not say complete. God is infinite, there is much more to God than the trinity. And God did not want to confuse us with the trinity but needed to reveal himself in these three forms.

Back to the mountain illustration, while we cannot penetrate what is above the cloud (and unlike the mountain which is smaller than what is below the cloud, in the case of God what is above the mountain is infinately bigger than what we see below the mountain) the trinity are like three slopes to the mountain. Or maybe another illustration would be someone outside of a glass of water. Where the inside of the glass of water is time and space, and you have someone outside the glass of water but sticks three fingers into the waster to communicate with life in the glass of water teaching different aspects about himself.

Thus we have the one infinite God who is outside of time, space and our ability to comprehend who wanted to bridge that incomrehensivle gap by not only remaining outside of time and space but also revealed himself inside of time and space in three revelations that were necessary for us to know but which by them selves or only two of these would insufficient, but the three reveations of God are necessary and sufficient.

Part of what confuses us, is that we are not thinking in consepts of the infinite and the revelations to the finite, but have come to think that the trinity is all there is to God. Fleming says that the idea that we have a rope with three strands is confusing to us because we think this rope is all there is. Rather there a vast unknown out there, as above the cloud that we cannot comprehend, but we can relate through it's three slopes, the three fingers in our glass of water.

We tend to think like "These three fingers are somehow the same person" without realizing that this one person is outside of this glass and the three fingers are only part of him in his mannor of communicating with us.

I hope this helps.

July 24, 2012

Kevin H wrote:

“Thus we have the one infinite God who is outside of time, space and our ability to comprehend who wanted to bridge that incomprehensible gap by not only remaining outside of time and space but also revealed himself inside of time and space in three revelations that were necessary for us to know but which by them selves or only two of these would insufficient, but the three revelations of God are necessary and sufficient.”

How can God be outside of time and space? Time and space are simply mental constructs we use to show the relationship between matter and the sequence of events. If God is outside of time, for example, are you saying that there is no sequence for God’s acts and thoughts?

July 24, 2012

The Father does not sit on His throne in the Most Holy Place 24-7 for billions and billions of years. According to the bible He tends to move around. He came down on Mt Sinai. He will live with us on the new earth...no mention of a throne then. I don't think we can get too hung up on this "throne" business. God uses human language to communicate with us...but we can see only so dimly.

God has no need of a chair to sit on. Nevertheless, he reveals himself to us in a laguage we can understand.

July 25, 2012

pkrause wrote:

“I agree 100% LD. Not only that, if we do believe that Christ enter the MHP in 1844, than how can he be the HS at the same time?”

That’s a big “If.” Have you read the following text? It is talking about past teense in the first century. Jesus was sitting at the right hand of the throne of God—not in 1844 but following his ascension.

"Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” [Rev. 12:2]

Is there a place in heaven more holy than God's throne? Isn't God's throne the "Most Holy" place in heaven?

A big "If" - "if we do believe that Christ enter (sic) the MHP in 1844".

Most of US CHRISTIANS and a very significant fraction of Adventist CHRISTIANS do not believe Christ entered the "MHP" in 1844. The periodic schisms in the SDA Church have practically always at least partly included disagreement about the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment and the very existence of a Heavenly Sanctuary. So for most Christians, and very many Adventists (most of 'em saved Christians, as in all other brands of people designating themselves "Christians"), whether Jesus entered the Most Holy Place in 1844 has no bearing on the doctrine of The Trinity. Most importantly, such belief has no bearing on personal salvation.

For the vast majority of Christians, be they Adventist, Baptist, Methodist, Mennonite, other "Protestants",those Christians unjustly judged as "Babylonians", Catholics, various Eastern Orthodox groups;the "IJ" ( I usually abhor abbreviations )has no relevance to salvation or to any other Biblical truth.

The only Biblical truth that matters is belief in the atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ as the perfect and complete remedy for sin and guilt.

Belief in confusing, changing, diaphanous doctrines, including the poorly defined "doctrine" of The Trinity, and the well defined but non-scriptural doctrines such as the investigative judgment, has been the source of all too much verbal and even physical contention. Such worthless contention has served to undermine the message of The Gospel, authored by The Prince of Peace Himself.

I appreciate all the posts on this topic of The Trinity,but at the same time confess that I am more confused than ever.

God's Spirit is indicating to me that the doctrine of The Trinity is not a matter relevant to Salvation, and indeed, not an important spiritual matter at all.

Agape

July 25, 2012

The issues of the Great Controversy are all based on the trinity. The three beasts of Revelation 12 and 13 are the ellements of the trinity but either working independent of each other, or cooperating for their own selfish purposes rather than the self sacrificing love righteousness by faith relationship that unifies the trinity

July 25, 2012

The issues of the Great Controversy are all based on the trinity. The three beasts of Revelation 12 and 13 are the ellements of the trinity but either working independent of each other, or cooperating for their own selfish purposes rather than the self sacrificing love righteousness by faith relationship that unifies the trinity

The trinity found in Rev. 12 and 13 are led by the devil and his angels. The alleged Trinity in heaven is a doctrine borrowed from paganism. The Devil has a great interest in the preservation of such unchristian doctrine since, according to Ellen White, he once occupied the third position of honor in heaven.

My question: If Ellen was right, then did the Holy Spirit occupy the fourth position of honor in heaven prior to the fall of Lucifer?

July 26, 2012

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

The Father does not sit on His throne in the Most Holy Place 24-7 for billions and billions of years. According to the bible He tends to move around. He came down on Mt Sinai. He will live with us on the new earth...no mention of a throne then. I don't think we can get too hung up on this "throne" business. God uses human language to communicate with us...but we can see only so dimly.

God has no need of a chair to sit on. Nevertheless, he reveals himself to us in a laguage we can understand.

God is limited by the language. To think that we understand God by the limitations of the human language in addition to the limitations of our fallen nature seems scary to me.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

July 26, 2012

The trinity found in Rev. 12 and 13 are led by the devil and his angels. The alleged Trinity in heaven is a doctrine borrowed from paganism. The Devil has a great interest in the preservation of such unchristian doctrine since, according to Ellen White, he once occupied the third position of honor in heaven.

My question: If Ellen was right, then did the Holy Spirit occupy the fourth position of honor in heaven prior to the fall of Lucifer?

This shows that you need to study out the trinity more, that you don't understand it. Jesus and God the Father are the objective manisfestations of the infinite God. Thus they would be seen as the first and second, and then the leader of the created beings would have the third position. The Holy Spirit is in a different situation since He is God's manisfestation and leading the Subjective aspect of our lives. Thus would not be out there in the first or second position.

July 26, 2012

This shows that you need to study out the trinity more, that you don't understand it.

Give me the strongest biblical evidence for the Trinity doctrine!

July 28, 2012

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

This shows that you need to study out the trinity more, that you don't understand it.

Give me the strongest biblical evidence for the Trinity doctrine!

Nic, you probably understand The Trinity doctrine as well as anybody. Anybody who truly understood it would be able to provide a definition in far less than 72 thousand words without relying on metaphors, analogies, and symbolism.

What used to really scare me as a child was the fear that I would inadvertently blaspheme The Holy Spirit. What is that unforgivable sin? Many thoughts on that sin abound.

Now I'm gonna study The Trinity the proper way, with prayer and a rigorous search of Scripture, the beginning aid being Nave's Topical as found in e-Sword.

By the way, is there anybody here who does not have e-Sword or an equivalent program? You can even download into it for free a huge amount of indexed writing from Mrs. White. E-Sword or equivalent programs are absolutely essential for efficient Bible study.

Agape

July 28, 2012

JawgeFromJawja wrote:

“What used to really scare me as a child was the fear that I would inadvertently blaspheme The Holy Spirit.”

Were you aware that the unpardonable sin was originally cited in reference to the sin against the angel of the Lord?

20“See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. [Exodus 23]

My view is that the Holy Spirit is the invisible presence of God either directly or through any agency he chooses to manifest himself, be it Jesus, the angel Gabriel, or any of his many angels.

July 28, 2012

Naves combined with e-Sword rocks! Oh, how sweet it is! In the short time since my previous post, I have already looked up and recorded the following from Naves' Topical via e-Sword. All of them do not seem that relevant. You decide:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Mat 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

Wow! I'm already sub-orbital.

More later.

Agape

July 28, 2012

JawgeFromJawja wrote:

“What used to really scare me as a child was the fear that I would inadvertently blaspheme The Holy Spirit.”

Were you aware that the unpardonable sin was originally cited in reference to the sin against the angel of the Lord?

20“See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him. [Exodus 23]

My view is that the Holy Spirit is the invisible presence of God either directly or through any agency he chooses to manifest himself, be it Jesus, the angel Gabriel, or any of his many angels.

Thanks again, Nic. I did not recall that verse. Interesting, for the command in that verse is do not rebel against the angel. Of course, Israel rebelled repeatedly, usually being soundly punished, but throughout the Old Testament was subsequently forgiven.

So, apparently God forgives, at least that sort of rebellion against his Spirit imbued agent, here an angel; even though the agent could not forgive rebellion.

Agape

July 30, 2012

One of the key passages connected with the Holy Spirit is found in the Gospel of John Chapter 14, where we find the reference to the promise of the Holy Spirit by Jesus.

16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

In order to correctly understand what Jesus was talking about we need to pay attention to the word “abide” found in verse 17, which the translator rendered as “lives,” but can also mean “to stay,” “abide” or “remain,” according to the Greek Lexicon.

17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

He abides μένει menei 3306

to stay, abide, remain a prim. verb[Greek Lexicon]

Notice that said Spirit of truth presently “lives” with the disciples, but will in the future “be” in them. The question is: Who was living with them?

Of course, it was Jesus. He was physically living with them, but in the future would live in them.

This interpretation is supported in verse 18 where Jesus clearly states that he would not leave them orphans, but would come back to them, this time not in physical form but rather spiritual.

18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [John 14]

This interpretation agrees with other passages of Scripture. In the same chapter, verse 23 we find the declaration that this spiritual abiding will include not only Jesus but God the Father as well.

23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. [id]

Our abode μονὴν monēn 3438

an abiding, an abode from menó[G.L.]

Also, notice that this abiding is mutual: It is Jesus who abides in us, but we also abide in him.

“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.” [John 15:4]

Abide μείνατε meinate 3306

to stay, abide, remain[G.L.]

It is also important to note that such mutual abiding is accomplished with the inclusion of the words his disciples heard spoken by Jesus; and again, the emphasis is on a mutual abiding. The words Jesus spoke abide in us and we abide both in the “Son” and in God the “Father.”

This idea of mutual abiding is repeated in the first epistle of John:

“What you have heard from the beginning must abide in you. If what you have heard from the beginning abides in you, you will also abide in the Son and in the Father.” [1 John 2:24]

abides μείνῃ meinē 3306