Constant condemnation...does it make matters worse?

[Robert]

Did you know that "law" actually makes matters worse? I get this concept from Romans 7:5 - “…the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law”.

Does that mean we shouldn't have law? No, but it does mean that constant condemnation produces nothing but more transgression. In fact if you add partiality and favoritism then you have a system of law that breeds anarchy.

Have you noticed how our judicial system has been handing out “felonies” like candy? I mean just about every crime has a felony to it anymore!

The problem is after such a person does his/her time he/she can’t get work…so he/she turns back to crime to survive.

What's your opinion?

[Dr. Shane]

Our justice system seems to need a bit of fine-tuning. I think violent crime needs to be treated differently than non-violent crime. I think it is terrible that we put non-violent criminals in the same jail/prison cells with violent criminals. It seems to transform many of the non-violent criminals into violent ones.

I believe sexual preditors should be placed in half-way houses and be required to wear a gps monitor. Living in a half-way house, they would be able to work and pay for part of their incarceration. They would also be monitored by staff and not allowed to be able to be in a position to sexually assault others.

I feel the same way about non-violent drug crimes. If they are placed in half-way houses (or minimum security facilities) they can work in the civilian world and pay "rent" which would pay for part of the incarciration.

but this is starting to sound a little political so I better stop there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Robert]

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I believe sexual predators should ....

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This brings up one of my points: "....if you add partiality and favoritism then you have a system of law that breeds anarchy."

The media is really focusing on "sexual predators"....Moms especially want to know where they are at....But in this mix you have the "non-predator". They haven't repeated their crime, yet they are equally hounded. I have a problem with making matters worse for the "non-predator"....Why can't they get on with their lives without being stigmatized? I mean after all, God doesn't hold our sins over our heads...He doesn't go finishing...He forgives and forgets!

Personally I think the "non-predator" issue is a bit overdone to the extreme. Shall we begin posting the neighborhood alcoholics? After all almost 2,000 deaths were related to drinking and driving in 2001. Isn't this group of people much more dangerous to life and liberty? Seems we are focusing in the wrong areas....Spin docs???

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

I am not going to argue the politics of it. I am not going there. I think rehabilitations is clearly favorable. It is the means to that end which doesn't seem clear.

If the number of drinking and driving deaths is down to 2,000/year that is a big drop from 10,000/year which is what it was 15 years ago.

[Robert]

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If the number of drinking and driving deaths is down to 2,000/year that is a big drop from 10,000/year which is what it was 15 years ago.

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Maybe...here's the stats for 2004:

Madd

[Robert]

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I think rehabilitation is clearly favorable.

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Yes, but in the case of child molesters, etc...I am hearing that they can't be rehabilitated.... Funny, the Bible tells me differently....

If sexual deviates can't get divine help, then neither can a host of so called diseases caused by "vanity" and "coveting".... Yeah, I know...that's not politically correct...I mean every perversion is now referred to as a disease and not sin....

Anyway, I'm really afraid of where this whole thing is going....Posting someone’s address; keeping them from getting a decent job...is just plain Pharisaical to me....I am referring to people who have done their time....

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

It goes back to the chicken and the egg. Which came first?

Is alcoholism a disease? I believe so. So does the disease cause the alcohlic to sin or [:"green"] does the sin cause the disease? [/] I believe the sin causes the disease. It becomes a metal disorder like any compulsive behavior. It, of course, also carries spirital consequences and physical issues as well. So, once aquired, the alcoholic must deal with his or her disease.

I can't speak about sexual crime. I assume others on this forum know as much about it as I do. From what I have heard, those committing sex crimes with people post-puberty respond well to rehabilitation. Those committing crimes with people pre-puberty do not respond well at all. However I am no expert in that at all.

[K]

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[:"green"]Yes, but in the case of child molesters, etc...I am hearing that they can't be rehabilitated.... Funny, the Bible tells me differently....

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I think when it comes to safety of children to err on the side of children is more prudent than to err on the side of the convicted molester.

An SDA MD told me that child molesters could never be trusted with children. His views were that you could love them, and forgive them, but to leave them in situations where a child could become a victim again was crazy.

K

[Robert]

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I think when it comes to safety of children to err on the side of children is more prudent than to err on the side of the convicted molester.

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So we should post the sins of non-predators? That's where I have concerns...where, as a nation, is this going?

Like I stated, alcoholic related accidents kill more "children" than any sex-offender thought about doing....yet we don't see his/her poster in some neighborhood....Why? Spin!

Here's the problem - Alcohol is allowed because the corporate machine ($) is more important than the safety of children....So "we" turn where the money doesn't flow...."We" take it out on non-predator (I am sure there's other issues, but this one is the current "spin")....What's next?

Concerned,

Rob

[K]

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[:"purple"] So we should post the sins of non-predators? That's where I have concerns...where, as a nation, is this going?

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I am not sure what you mean by non predators. Could you explain so I am clear what types of people you are talking about.

[Nicodema]

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An SDA MD told me that child molesters could never be trusted with children. His views were that you could love them, and forgive them, but to leave them in situations where a child could become a victim again was crazy.

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Then it seems clear to me there can be a "happy medium" -- how about instead of holding the past over their heads, only make it an issue where children are involved? For example, if they want to get a job that isn't directly working with children, then it should be kept private and a non-issue. But if they are seeking a job as a schoolteacher or something else working with children, then and only then should the past be an issue, and then only because of the safety of the children, not as a means of "re-punishing" the past offender (who has already served his time and thus received his punishment from society).

I'm guessing what was meant by "non-predator" is someone who has offended, been caught, done their time, and not repeated the offense. I'm guessing "predator" indicates someone constantly on the prowl for new victims as opposed to someone who gave into some perverse temptation but has not repeated the crime elsewhere. Although it is questionable if, and how many, such persons really exist, since it is typically thought that someone caught for one sexual offense would have committed several others in which he was NOT caught.

[Bravus]

I think the other point here is that it's a bit of a cost-benefit analysis: having lived with the consequences of child sexual abuse of someone very close to me, which are lifelong and profound, I recognise that the rights of the potential victims in these situations must outweigh those of the perpetrators. That is, the harm that is done to the victims is so outrageously disproportional to that done to the perpetrators that it is fair that the latter suffer the lifelong consequence of never being trusted to work with children. If one more child is harmed because we guessed wrong about whether someone would re-offend, it's one too many.

[Nicodema]

I agree with you Bravus, when we are talking about someone who actually HAS offended, it has been proven in court, and they have been convicted.

However, I do not believe the same exigencies ought to be applied in a case where someone has been merely accused. I have seen some extremists that would apply this even to those who have merely been accused because of the stigma of the accusation. I think that is totally unconscionable. An accusation of that nature could be false, and if a court of law acquits someone they should not be treated as if they were convicted and guilty. I've seen what can happen when unscrupulous people engage in malicious, uninformed speculations and slanderous gossip about others, and those experiences are painful enough to an individual without treating him or her for the rest of their life as though all such horrible lies were true when they were not.

Safety of children is important to us in part because they are innocents, and as you have well pointed out, the repercussions of abuse are lifelong and terrible. However, it is equally lifelong and terrible to treat an innocent adult as if he or she were guilty of one of the most horrid crimes on the face of the earth just because he or she had the misfortune of having someone lie about them.

Therefore, I maintain that the criteria for application of the exigencies you mention should only be conviction in a court of law. A person must be found guilty of the crime itself before they are to be subjected to any sort of treatment that goes with the territory. Mere accusation is NOT reason enough to subject a person to that type of exigency. False accusations can be made and ARE made, routinely, for a number of reasons ranging from precocious malice to manipulative misleading by irresponsible therapists. Many cases of false accusation have been documented and proven. The whole McMartin Preschool case of the late 1980s was a real doozy in this regard, but there have been others.

As an aside, we have yet to come up with an effective way of dealing with an equally devastating abuse experience: child-on-child sexual abuse, wherein an older child or a peer with strong influence lures, manipulates, or forces another child into sexual activities in similar fashion as an adult offender might. This is, mind you, something FAR different from peer children engaging in "explorative" play together; this is a situation where one child clearly exerts himself over another through age or size advantage, social advantage, or some other means, to either seduce, manipulate, intimidate, or force another child into these activities. The results of this sort of thing upon the abused child are just as long-term and negative as sexual abuse from any adult. I wonder at what age a minor should be held accountable on an adult level for such a crime?

[Bravus]

Agreed - absolutely: as a teacher, I'm only too aware that the career I've worked a long time to build can be snatched away from me in an instant by a malicious and untrue accusation.

The other piece of that, though, is that institutions and families must be willing to let the cases get to court: there are cases just like the Catholic ones in our own church, where people have been moved around and shielded rather than tried. In fact, the person who molested the person close to me was never tried. He died a couple of weeks ago, and I heaved a sigh of relief: girls are safe. But the family shielded him, and no-one knows how many lives he damaged, beyond those of his own daughters and grand-daughters.

So I agree with you, but we have to get a lot better at *getting* that evidence as early as possible.

[Dr. Shane]

Some want to lock repeat offenders away for their entire life. If we let them out they can repeat thier offense again even if they don't work with children. I see the half-way house with gps id as the compromise.

If they are in a halfway house with a job they are helping pay for their punishment. They are also productive members of society.

Forgiveness doesn't mean we forget about someone's weakness. If you know I am an alcoholic are you going to encourage me to become a bar tender? If you know I have been a theif, are you going to leave money laying around when I visit you? Of course not. You would not want to place temptation at my door.

[Gerr]

That's why some people would like to do away with the law. It doesn't commend obedience, and constantly condemns disobedience.

Gerry

[Robert]

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[:"purple"] So we should post the sins of non-predators? That's where I have concerns...where, as a nation, is this going?

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I am not sure what you mean by non predators. Could you explain so I am clear what types of people you are talking about.

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repeat offenders....

[Robert]

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That is, the harm that is done to the victims is so outrageously disproportional to that done to the perpetrators that it is fair that the latter suffer the lifelong consequence of never being trusted to work with children.

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Sure, but to keep them from employment after they have done their time isn't right. That's where I have a problem.

Again, I say the attention that non-predators are getting is overkill when alcohol deaths far exceed the damage of sex offenders....Why? Corporate American! It's okay because

1] The government makes money from taxes,

2] And the corporations keep the politicians happy with donations....

Otherwise the neighborhood alcoholics would have their posters next to the sex offenders....

So the cause (besides their natures)?

Alcohol

Pornography

What to do? I don't know....

[Robert]

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That's why some people would like to do away with the law. It doesn't commend obedience, and constantly condemns disobedience.

Gerry

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Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

If you are under law then there's no forgiveness...no heaven for you! You are saved by grace alone....And yes there's a change, but guess what? You are still a law-breaker in God's eyes....Be glad God is not like us....

[Gerr]

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That's why some people would like to do away with the law. It doesn't commend obedience, and constantly condemns disobedience.

Gerry

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Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

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[:"blue"]So your solution to the believer's dilemma about sin is to take the law away from him, right? For without the law, he no longer is guilty of anything, right? For without the law, there is no longer any sin, & therefore he would be considered perfect, right? And without the law, he no longer needs grace, right? [/]

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If you are under law then there's no forgiveness...no heaven for you! You are saved by grace alone....And yes there's a change, but guess what? You are still a law-breaker in God's eyes....Be glad God is not like us....

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[:"blue"]Rob, until you understand the difference between "under law" meaning salvation through law keeping & "under law" as the standard for holy living, or the difference between obedience to the law inorder to get brownie points & obedience as a loving response to grace, you will continue to arrive at some very funny conclusions. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Gerry you always highjack these posts to your theme of salvation by works....

Back to the subject:

Here's a recent e-mail I sent on this subject and the replies:

My original question:

• What happens when a non-predator, sex offender is released from prison? Is his/her address posted on the SC Sex Offenders web page?

  Thanks,

  Rob

The reply:

• From: *** <***@***.sc.gov>

  Subject: RE:

  When an offender is released and is going to live in SC, the department of corrections lets the county sheriff know this offender is being released and will live in their county. The sex offender contact in that county will register the sex offender. A sex offender released from DOC has 24 hours to go to the sheriffs department and register. Then the address is posted on the web site.

And my :2cents: to their reply:

• So a "non-predator, sex offender" who has done his time now has his name plastered for all to see? This sounds like double jeopardy of a sort....In reality "the convicted person" really nevers does his/her time in our self-righteous, legalistic system. Hmmm? I am glad God does treat us sinners as does our so-called governing officials. I guess venting is still legal?

Thanks for the info.,

Robert

[Bravus]

Well, I kinda see your point, Rob, but it's also rather horrifying to think that the only way your 'non-predator' guy would change that status is to offend again. So in other words, every sex offender gets to have the chance to hurt at least one more kid before these sanctions apply? *That* sounds screwy to me. To me, they make this decision (to step over the line and molest a child), they've made it and they suffer the consequences. Why should another child's innocence act as a litmus test?

[Robert]

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....So in other words, every sex offender gets to have the chance to hurt at least one more kid before these sanctions apply? *That* sounds screwy to me.

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Maybe God shouldn't have let us live....Maybe He should have dropped us "in Adam"....Yet He didn't...and because "He didn't" we have seen terrible results. One human nature left unchecked can ruin the universe....We need to look in the mirror!

I think we are a paranoid world. We worry about the sex offender (the current spin of the day) and gloss over more dangerous issues....As I stated, a child is much more likely to be killed by a drunk driver...yet no one is jumping up and down to do something about alcohol! Funny...ain't it!

[K]

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When an offender is released and is going to live in SC, the department of corrections lets the county sheriff know this offender is being released and will live in their county. The sex offender contact in that county will register the sex offender. A sex offender released from DOC has 24 hours to go to the sheriffs department and register. Then the address is posted on the web site.

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In Texas we have similar laws. You can see if there is a sex offender living near your school or home.

Robert, this is kind of personal, but do you have kids? I ask because I think that your opinion might be a little different if you considered what you would personally do if your child was violated.

I think that sex crimes are worse than alcohol crimes because sex crimes kill the spirit. Once you have been molested, the statistics show that are more likely to become a molester yourself. I know several people my age who were molested. Let me tell you their lives are so very different than mine. It never goes away, and the path they walked in life was determined by some sick person who never got caught. Molesters manipulate their vicitms into silence which is why so many are around still doing damage.

I was not raised an Adventist, but my parents were wonderful. I never had a baby sitter outside of my family members ever. They were careful about who we associated with as a family. They gave it their best to try to protect us always. I did the very same thing with my kids, but they had to have babysitters because there was no family near to help. The unfortunate thing about having to use people who you don't really know watching your kids, is that you have to give them "the talk". Very young my children were told that if anyone asked to touch or see their private parts (I explained private parts as anything under a swimsuit), they were to inform me or their dad. Robert, it made me cry to have to tell my precious children this stuff, but I think that as a parent and a responsible citizen, we have to inform and protect. I think the laws are made for that reason. They are informing us and protecting us so that the crime doesn't happen over and over and over.

K

[Robert]

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I think that sex crimes are worse than alcohol crimes because sex crimes kill the spirit. Once you have been molested, the statistics show that are more likely to become a molester yourself....

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So those who are molested are likely to molest themselves? Well, I've heard that, but I don't know if that statement is true....Let's say it is for argument sake. So then, the solution is to post their pictures for the world to see?

Yes, maybe for the repeat offender, but for the non-repeat offender? That doesn't seem very Christian to me....Of course "the State" isn't Christian...they belong to "the world".

Does posting their pictures help them are make matters worse? I am afraid the latter...but no one cares because we sinners love our own. No, this matter of displaying the sins of others is not of God. It doesn't help those who have been victimized and perhaps have victimized others themselves. It is vicious circle....

PS: Yes, I have grown children....