Constant condemnation...does it make matters worse?

[Nicodema]

I was molested. I am not a molester.

And I do not think I deserve to have my name and photograph plastered everywhere just because some paranoid statistician thinks I might one day become a molester just because I'm in some arbitrary at-risk category. I'm 40 years old. If I was going to have become a molester I would have done so already. Suffering through molestation and its impact on my life was painful enough; I don't need to be the target of someone else's paranoia for my future.

[Gerr]

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I was not raised an Adventist, but my parents were wonderful. I never had a baby sitter outside of my family members ever. They were careful about who we associated with as a family.

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[:"blue"]If what I have read is true, many cases of molestations are committed by people known to the family. [/]

Gerry

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

So those who are molested are likely to molest themselves? Well, I've heard that, but I don't know if that statement is true....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

That is a raw statistic. The internal studies would be interesting. For example: are children that are molested and recieve counseling afterwards still likely to become a molestor? Or are adults that were molested as children and recieved counseling as adults still likely to become molestors?

I was molested as a child (10 years old) and my mother caught the molestor in the act. As a result I was in Christian counseling for three years. Far from being a child molestor myself, I am very protective of children.

K, most children are molested by a member of their family so just leaving your kids with family isn't a sure protection. Talking with your children and giving them propper sex education, starting as toddlers, is the best protection.

[Robert]

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I was molested. I am not a molester.

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I didn't say that, "K" said that...

If what K states is true (and now Shane says it also) then once an adulterer...always an adulterer. Once a thief always a thief...once an agnostic always an agnostic...and so on and on and on...

Rob

[Robert]

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That is a raw statistic....

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Okay...let's say it is so and the molested becomes the molester.

In turn he/she gets his/her counseling (and perhaps does their time)....Now does plastering their picture and address help or hinder their rehabilitation?

Yes some will live for the flesh...but some won't. The system already stamps them with a felony...that in itself prevents them from many jobs...and now on top of that they get their sins published before the world!

Like I said, I don't like where this is going....

[Dr. Shane]

I suspect that those that get counseling as children, or voluntarily as adults, do not become molestors.

[K]

Gerry,

You are correct. I have been blessed to have some great relatives.

Here is some information I found researching the topic.

Medical Article

General information on molestation

Oprah interview with convicted chlid molester

I think the way we deal with molesters today and the way we dealt with them 30=40 years ago is very different. Shane your mom was extra special because most people your age did not get help.

K

[Robert]

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Medical Article

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From the above website:

"If we are genuinely concerned about combating the sexual victimization of children we must be humanistic in our attitudes towards the offender so that we don't inadvertently perpetuate the problem."

[Robert]

Quote:

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General information on molestation

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Quote:

"Can a child molester be rehabilitated? It depends on who the child molester is....The type of child molester most resistant to treatment is called a fixed pedophile. These people primarily abuse children of their own gender, and across family lines (which is not the majority of sex abusers)....In general, this is not the case with incest perpetrators. Most people who abuse will probably be able to stop if they are held accountable, punished appropriately, and also given the proper kind of therapeutic treatment."

Hmmm? So "most" pedophiles can be rehabilitated! Well, not under our present system....

I might add that the above doesn't mention the power of the Holy Spirit to defeat the desires of the flesh.

Rob

[Gerr]

Just tagging along.

Can a molester be rehabilitated?

I believe "there is a balm in Gilead to heal the sin-sick soul." Anything short of the new birth is likely to fail.

Gerry

[K]

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[:"blue"] Most people who abuse will probably be able to stop if they are held accountable, punished appropriately, and also given the proper kind of therapeutic treatment. [/]

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I would like to know how on earth we can hold someone accountable, and get them proper treatment. Our social service system in my state is so over burdened. We can't even protect children who have been abused because of the ineffectiveness of the system. In Texas our legislature can't even agree on funding of schools, they have cut funding of mental health facilities, and so I ask how can we help these people when it is easier for the people we elect to throw them in jail and publish their names.

I do believe after reading about molestation that many can be helped, but I question our ability to do the job that is needed to help them.

I appreciate this topic because it has forced me to read and think about things which are often spouted off, but that you really have never read for yourself.

K

[Robert]

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so I ask how can we help these people when it is easier for the people we elect to throw them in jail and publish their names.

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Like most people in power our legislators opt for the "temporary, easy solutions"! They get their credit and move on up the ladder....

We are told this nation is going to get legalistic [Rev 13]...you know, the cold Pharisaical type...and that's where we are headed. I wonder if they know what Paul stated to the Galatians:

"For if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law."

Righteousness does come by condemnation...it doesn't come by viewing the law.... Righteousness (in this case not molesting) comes from a relationship with Jesus Christ....He understands - for our flesh tempted Him in all ways, yet without sin.

Apparently our legislators are "old covenant" people.... Again, it’s a bit scary....Where is this going?

Having said that, should our government draw a line to help maintain a balance between its civilians?

I wonder if there is a link to molestation and pornography? People are addicted to this stuff....But its okay (says the government)...just like tobacco (which they know kills)....

In my mind the real culprit is our government....Sex sells...and so does tobacco and alcohol....Our government makes billions of dollars off these sells....

Perhaps that's why Paul says,

1 Tim 6:9 "...those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil....

The more corrupt our government becomes the more self-righteous she will become....It's called a cover up!

The little guy always gets hurt....

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

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In my mind the real culprit is our government

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[:"red"] "And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me--she gave me [fruit] from the tree, and I ate.

And the Lord God said to the woman, What is this you have done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled (cheated, outwitted, and deceived) me, and I ate.

" [/] Gen 3:12,13

It's the same story as from the beginning. "It's not my fault. The devil made me do it." A total lack of personal accountability.

Keep the faith!

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I would like to know how on earth we can hold someone accountable

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

We can put them in half-way houses with a gps. I can't imagine that would be any more expensive than prison.

[K]

I may be slow, but how does a GPS keep someone from molesting a kid in the mall bathroom or dressing room. I don't really understand how GPS does anymore than tell someone where a person is.

K

[Nicodema]

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In my mind the real culprit is our government....Sex sells...and so does tobacco and alcohol....Our government makes billions of dollars off these sells....

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... Not as much as big business makes. These are huge industries, and even multi-billion dollar industries that don't "sell sex" outright use sexual overtones in their advertising to sell their products. If we're looking for a culprit, try big business itself.

I agree (as LHC posted) that individuals are ultimately responsible for their decisions and choices. However, it is also true that where a toxic atmosphere full of toxic conditions exists, the result will be sick people living there. The same is true for psychological conditions, and in a society literally saturated and marinated in negative and false messages about sex and other things, sickness in thought and perception, resulting in poor choices, is the inevitable result. It is not so easy to lay blame one way or the other; the problem is "endemic?" (I always get those 2 words confused -- systemic & endemic -- maybe a doc can help me out here!) What I mean to say is the problem exists in the toxic atmosphere & conditions (psychologically, emotionally, spiritually) within the surrounding society itself and is not solely the product of the individual's lack of moral fiber but rather the setting contributes to that lack, exacerbates it, even works to create it from youth up.

In other words "No man is an island" -- none of us are purely the products of our own doing; we cannot help but be at least partially products of our surroundings and influences, families and societies. People who work with victims of anorexia nervosa, for example, really know this because it is a constant battle for recovering anoretics to shut out all the messages in the media beating down their self-esteem and telling them to be worth anything they must be dangerously & deadly thin. These kinds of false values erode all of us, whether we succumb ultimately to something bad from them or not, and our attitude toward those who do succumb should not be one of contempt but simply the recognition that "but for the grace of God, there go I" -- that any one of us could have had that inherited weakness or stack of negative influences, toxic surroundings, etc. that could have led us down the same path.

[Amelia]

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Most people who abuse will probably be able to stop if they are held accountable, punished appropriately, and also given the proper kind of therapeutic treatment.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Being held accountable is being able to face your actions and accepting you are doing them. But abusers most often deny they are responsible for their actions. Its always the abusee that "causes" the problems.

Saturday afternoon I called 911 about my downstairs neighbors. The man in that apt is very abusive towards the woman and 3 small children. After I moved in and started hearing the fights I promised myself If I ever heard anything that sounded like fist striking etc I would call 911. Well Saturdays fight was more violent than in the past and I heard the man say..."I will kill you.. I will f'ing kill you" and then I heard a hand strike and the woman screamed. Of course the children where screaming the whole time. I called 911 and it took over 15mins for them to arrive and by then it was all over. Three patrol cars showed up but only one policeman went to the door. He stayed about 5mins and then left. After he was gone there was another fight with the man blaming the woman for the police showing up. I have been to our complex office about this and they have given them notice about noise. They said thats all they can do. I am concerned about the children. So what is my next step? I guess that depends on how involved I want to get and whether or not the man will start in on me.

[Naomi]

Amelia, you did the right thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/129933-offtopic2.gif" alt="" /> However, I was reminded of a sad poem that tells what can happen:

SARAH's POEM

My name is Sarah

I am but three,

My eyes are swollen

I cannot see,

I must be stupid

I must be bad,

What else could have made

My daddy so mad?

I wish I were better

I wish I weren't ugly,

Then maybe my mommy

Would still want to hug me.

I can't speak at all

I can't do a wrong

Or else I'm locked up

All the day long.

When I awake I'm all alone

The house is dark

My folks aren't home.

When my mommy does come

I'll try and be nice,

So maybe I'll get just

One whipping tonight.

Don't make a sound!

I just heard a car

My daddy is back

>From Charlie's Bar.

I hear him curse

My name he calls

I press myself

Against the wall.

I try and hide

from his evil eyes

I'm so afraid now

I'm starting to cry.

He finds me weeping

He shouts ugly words,

He says its my fault

That he suffers at work.

He slaps me and hits me

And yells at me more,

I finally get free

And I run for the door.

He's already locked it

And I start to bawl,

He takes me and throws me

Against the hard wall.

I fall to the floor

With my bones nearly broken,

And my daddy continues

With more bad words spoken.

"I'm sorry!", I scream

But its now much too late

His face has been twisted

Into unimaginable hate.

The hurt and the pain

Again and again

Oh please God, have mercy!

Oh please let it end!

And he finally stops

And heads for the door,

While I lay there motionless

Sprawled on the floor.

My name is Sarah

And I am but three,

Tonight my daddy

Murdered me.

Every day thousands of kids just like Sarah are killed

at the hands of one or both or their parents. Also, adults are seriously injured and/or killed. It is our individual responsibility to report these cases if we are aware of them.

I understand that the police do not like to become involved in "domestics" but we have to at least try. Perhaps social services in your area could help or call the DA's office and ask for direction.

[Dr. Shane]

This is the arguement as I have heard it. I neither endorse it or criticise it.

If a person is staying in a half-way house and wearing a GPS they will be monitored. Once a day or so someone will review everywhere they went. If they went some where that was off-limits they would have consequences. The GPS also will verify the whereabouts should they be accused of molesting.

So the GPS holds them accoutable.

A portion of the cost would be borne by the offender as he or she would have to work and a % of their wages paid to the state. It should be cheaper to put someone in a half-way house with a GPS than put them in prison. It would also prevent a nonviolent criminal from becoming violet due to prison life.

[Robert]

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It's the same story as from the beginning. "It's not my fault. The devil made me do it." A total lack of personal accountability.

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Well it's not my fault that corporate America has a legal right to sell sex, alcohol and tobacco (just to name a few)....The government has the power to make it legal or not, but then again...they are in bed with big business. Its called corruption....And voting doesn't necessarily fix the problem...does it?

[Nicodema]

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And voting doesn't necessarily fix the problem...does it?

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Nope, not when those who support big biz interests also control all proprietary secrets of voting machine software.

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Quote:

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It's the same story as from the beginning. "It's not my fault. The devil made me do it." A total lack of personal accountability.

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Well it's not my fault that corporate America has a legal right to sell sex, alcohol and tobacco (just to name a few)....The government has the power to make it legal or not, but then again...they are in bed with big business. Its called corruption....And voting doesn't necessarily fix the problem...does it?

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[:"blue"]What corruption are you harping about? Remember that many CEOs of corporate America are professed Christians, e.g. Ken Lay. Since you claim that the Christian has been delivered from the law & therefore not bound to obey it, he is therefore either free to do whatever he wants or not guilty of the "corruption" that you speak of, right? [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Since you claim that the Christian has been delivered from the law & therefore not bound to obey it, he is therefore either free to do whatever he wants or not guilty of the "corruption" that you speak of, right?

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Christ has delivered us from the law....We are not "bound to the law"! To be under law means death....

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died [in Christ] to that by which we were bound [the law], [why so we can screw others over? No...] so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter [obey & live, disobey & die].

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Quote:

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Since you claim that the Christian has been delivered from the law & therefore not bound to obey it, he is therefore either free to do whatever he wants or not guilty of the "corruption" that you speak of, right?

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Christ has delivered us from the law....We are not "bound to the law"! To be under law means death....

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died [in Christ] to that by which we were bound [the law], [why so we can screw others over? No...] so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter [obey & live, disobey & die].

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[:"blue"]If, per your interpretation, believers have been released from obedience to the law, then you should not be harping about Christians molesting children, CEOs cheating investors or their companies, Christian women aborting their pregnancies, etc. etc. No more law to condemn these abominations, right? Actually, NOTHING would be considered abominable anymore because there is no more law to confront their behavior, right? [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

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if...believers have been released from obedience to the law, then you should not be harping about Christians molesting children, CEOs cheating investors or their companies, Christian women aborting their pregnancies, etc. etc.

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Gal 3:21 ...for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

2 Cor 3:12 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant [the law] is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when the law of Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.