Constant condemnation...does it make matters worse?

[Gerr]

Now tell us how we can be transformed into the likeness of the obedient Christ without obedience to the law of God.

Gerry

[LifeHiscost]

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Its called corruption....And voting doesn't necessarily fix the problem...does it?

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Unwillingness on our part to be involved in that corruption, and personal integrity where we govern, does help the problem in our sphere of influence. We are the government in the US of A.

[:"red"] "Uprightness and right standing with God (moral and spiritual rectitude in every area and relation) elevate a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people." [/] Proverbs 14:34 AMP

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Now tell us how we can be transformed into the likeness of the obedient Christ without obedience to the law of God.

Gerry

---

What part of this don't you understand?

• Gal 3:21 For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

We do not experience change (righteousness) by law...We grow only as we "rest" in Christ's finished work as our only hope now and in the judgment.

[Robert]

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We are the government in the US of A.

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Who are you kidding? We = "corporate America" and not we the people! Yes, we vote them in then,

1] They take back their promises

2] They cease to represent our interests and sell themselves to corporate America (they call it donations; I call it bribery).

That about sums it up,

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

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ROBERT said:

Quote:

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Now tell us how we can be transformed into the likeness of the obedient Christ without obedience to the law of God.

Gerry

---

What part of this don't you understand?

• Gal 3:21 For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

We do not experience change (righteousness) by law...We grow only as we "rest" in Christ's finished work as our only hope now and in the judgment.

---

[:"blue"]Robert, the law is not able to impart life. [:"red"]"It is the Spirit who gives life." Jn 6:63 NKJ. [/] The Spirit who gives life is the same Spirit that writes God's law in the heart according to God's new covenant promise. It is "by that Spirit that you put to death the deeds of the body." Rom 8:13 NKJ. It is by that same Spirit that God "works in you both TO WILL and TO DO [i.e. obey] for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NKJ. [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

Then if one doesn't keep all the Law or at least the TenCs that is proof one doesn't have the spirit of God and He hasn't written the Law in the heart?-----is that what you are saying, Gerry? Any breach of the law, particularly the most important commandment of all, the Sabbath, is prima facie evidence one is not yet going to be in the final group of those saved. Is that your interpretation? Sunday keepers will be 'out' IF they knew about the Sabbath and rejected it for the Christian?

My questions is this---If we are saved by Grace and not by Law, how is it that if one doesn't observe the Ten Cs, particularly the Sabbath, he is, or, is going to be lost?

Seems to me we, the Christian, (1) obey the Gospel, i.e. believe in Christ as our Redeemer, respecting God that raised Him from death, and (2) that we live among others observing the golden rule and are people of 'good deeds' we are 'saved' and if we persevere we will be saved in the 2nd Coming. The Christian who repeatedly does the detestable sins including failure to observe the Sabbath with SDAs has NOT been saved or has rather hopelessly fallen away and will be lost.

My query is not a trap, it is not intended as argumentative, it is searching to understand what you believe is likely. Oh, I failed to mention that I also perceive that belief in the classical SDA prophetic status of EGW as being nearCanonical in her pronouncements---that that is essential, too, if one knows about her. Atleast in due time belief in her is essential----is that what you hold and teach?

IOW, according to your interpretation of the Bible and EGW, what must "I" do to be saved?

Has there been any change in your thinking on this subject in the past 3-4 yrs?

Ben

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Quote:

Gerry Cabalo said:

Now tell us how we can be transformed into the likeness of the obedient Christ without obedience to the law of God.

Robert said:

We do not experience change (righteousness) by law...We grow only as we "rest" in Christ's finished work as our only hope now and in the judgment.

---

Reflecting upon both statements (the first by Gerry as a rhetorical question) and believing in both, now please tell me , Robert, how I can be obedient to what Jesus asks of me, without obedience? Please explain "resting in Christ" without obedience. Put it in terms that more than Robert can understand. Can I revile you and still "rest in Christ"? Please answer each question without avoidance of the questions.

Thank you.

[:"red"] "Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:" [/] 1 Peter 2:23 KJV

[:"red"] " I also am a man subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it.

When Jesus heard him, He marveled and said to those who followed Him [who adhered steadfastly to Him, conforming to His example in living and, if need be, in dying also], I tell you truly, I have not found so much faith as this with anyone, even in Israel." [/] Matt 8:9,10 Amp

[:"red"] "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it." [/] Matt 10:38,39 NKJV

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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we live among others observing the golden rule and are people of 'good deeds' we are 'saved' and if we persevere we will be saved in the 2nd Coming.

---

[:"red"] "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law." [/]

Romans 3:28 NKJV

I believe Gerry has already made it clear he believes that.

[:"red"] "So this is the point: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God." [/] Romans 7:4 NLT

I presume working to keep others alive would be a good deed

for God.(not murdering) And holding Him to be the one, the only God to be worshiped would be a good deed for Him. (No other Gods before Me) And not making false statements that would mislead into error would be a good deed by default. (Not lying) And allowing others to keep their property safe for themselves would be a good deed by default. (Not stealing) And remembering to keep holy (complete) the time He has set apart for us to meet together would be a good deed for Him. (Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy) And____, well, you get my drift.

Hope you have a happy Sabbath with Him.

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

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Robert, how I can be obedient to what Jesus asks of me, without obedience?

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The problem is your interpretation of what "Jesus asks"....Let me give you some examples taken out of context and some not:

• Matt 19:17 "...if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments .”

Clear statement: If you want eternal life you must OBEY the law.

• Matt 5:20 "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven....48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Another clear statement (taken out of context)!....Your righteousness must exceed full-time law keepers such as the scribes and Pharisees. In fact your righteousness must be perfect! How perfect? As perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect!

• Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it [interpreted it]?” 27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Okay...this one is in context: An expert in the law straight out asks Christ what he must do to obtain eternal life. Jesus directs him to the law and asks how do you interpret it? The man correctly sums the law and Jesus tells him, "Do this (i.e., keep the law) and you will live (get eternal life)."

From where was Jesus quoting? The Old Testament! Paul references it in Gal 3:10:

“CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM [compare Deuteronomy 27:26]…Verse 12: “The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will by them live.”

Jesus is quoting from “the book of the law” [Deut. 27:26/Lev 18:5]. He is telling this man that if he wants to “inherit” eternal life then He must keep the law.

So I’ve given you some quotes (some out of context…some in context). Am I to assume Christ is asking me to do these things? If so let’s read on:

• Romans 2:12 “All who sin under the law will be judged by the law. [Why?] 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

There’s many more just like the above….Some out of context, some in context. [:"red"]The point is you believe Christ is commanding us to do these things without examining the context. That is very dangerous...in fact I did just this years ago and ended up in legalism! I've learned better....[/]

Now I will use Ellen White [in context] to prove these are old covenant statements:

• -PC- RH

  -PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald

  -DT- 10-17-1907

  -AT- The Two Covenants

  -PR- 08

  The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26.

Did you get that? EGW says that the requirements of the Old Covenant were “obey and live”…i.e., “Do this and you will live”!

What you need to figure out is why Christ (or Paul) quoted “Old Covenant” demands! That requires knowledge…that requires an understanding of how sinful we really are…that requires the Holy Spirit to guide. Without Him the Bible seems to be nothing more than a series of contradictions….

[Robert]

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The Spirit who gives life is the same Spirit that writes God's law in the heart according to God's new covenant promise. It is "by that Spirit that you put to death the deeds of the body." Rom 8:13 NKJ. It is by that same Spirit that God "works in you both TO WILL and TO DO [i.e. obey] for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NKJ.

---

1] The Spirit does not add to what Christ did 2000 years ago. That work is complete! We are just by faith alone.

2] The work of the Holy Spirit is not to add to Christ's doing and dying....His first job is to convince us we are sinners and in need of Christ's righteousness.

3] Once this is accomplished we begin to experience what the Bible terms sanctification. As EGW noted...this process lasts a lifetime and no matter how much we grow we will never reach perfection [see AA p. 560]*

Therefore "the law written on the heart" is a process....It is nothing more than sanctification - a life time of experiencing growth. I say experience because it is the opposite of merit!

Do you want to experience growth? Well, there's only one way:

First you must be rooted and grounded in both the love of God and the gospel truth ("in Christ"). That is the prerequisite to experiencing sanctification. Without it your fruits will be self-righteous.

Only when you are fully grounded and rooted in your assurance of salvation can you bear fruit.

What you need Gerry is peace with God that justification brings [see Romans 5:1].....You don't have it because believers who have it are not insecure. Anyone who constantly harps on the law and uses it to hit other believers over the head is legalistic and insecure....

* "So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [fully overcome]."

[Robert]

• Matt 5:20 "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven....48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

According to Matt 4:25, "great multitudes followed Him from Galilee and Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan. 5:1 And when He saw the multitudes, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 And opening His mouth He began to teach them, saying....

Whom is Jesus teaching here? Some say just the disciples, but if you go to where Christ finishes His discourse, you will find it was also the great multitudes. Let's go there:

Matt 7:28 The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching; 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. [Please note the tension between Christ's words and the "teachers of the law."]

[:"red"]The multitudes were typically Jewish and as a Jew in the days of Christ you were taught that only those who obey the law went to heaven.[/]

So the mentality of the "great multitudes" (including the disciples at that time) was that heaven is only attainable by the keeping of the law!

Was Jesus teaching the same as "the teachers of the law"? No and I'll prove it:

• For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matt 5:20]

Did you catch that? Jesus is basically saying, "Remember what the teachers of the law taught you? Well I am telling you that your law keeping must surpass theirs!"

Now Christ begins to compare the letter of the law to what the spirit of the law requires:

Letter: “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ [verse 21]

Spirit: “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court." [verse 22]

Letter: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; [verse 27]

Spirit: but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. [verse 28]

Jesus continues to do this right up to verse 48 where He sums it all up:

• [:"red"]“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”[:"black"]

Did you get that – how perfect are you to be? What does the context say? “You are to be perfect”…how perfect? As you heavenly Father is perfect!!!

Why was Jesus teaching practically the same thing as that of the teachers of the law? The Jews were already bogged down under the law….It was a yoke of bondage to them.

Now Jesus comes along and makes matter even worse by adding the spiritual requirements of the law. What is Jesus doing?

Answer: The same thing He did at mount Sinai! The question is why did Christ give the law to a bunch of sinners when He knew that they couldn’t keep it? The problem is they didn’t know they couldn’t keep it!

If you come to Jesus and ask Him what good thing must you do to gain heaven, He will tell you to keep the commandments! Why? To break you of your pride – your ego….He does it to humble you so that you will concluded (as did Paul), [:"red"]"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."[:"black"] [Romans 3:28]

For further proof of my conclusions study the following:

Matthew 19:16-26

Luke 10:25-29

EGW:

"What is justification by faith? [:"red"]It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself [i.e., save himself][/]. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. Then they begin to praise and exalt God all the day long, then by beholding they are becoming changed into the same image. What is regeneration? It is revealing to man what is his own real nature, that in himself he is worthless. These lessons you have never learned." [Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty, p 117]

[Gerr]

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benherndon said:

Then if one doesn't keep all the Law or at least the TenCs that is proof one doesn't have the spirit of God and He hasn't written the Law in the heart?-----is that what you are saying, Gerry?

---

[:"blue"]Let me ask you, Ben. If after you promised your wife at the altar "to forsake all others" and yet continue to consort with other women, can you really say you were committed to her? [/]

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Any breach of the law, particularly the most important commandment of all, the Sabbath,

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[:"blue"] Oh, where is this found in Scripture that it is the most important commandment of all? [/]

Quote:

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is prima facie evidence one is not yet going to be in the final group of those saved. Is that your interpretation?

Sunday keepers will be 'out' IF they knew about the Sabbath and rejected it for the Christian?

---

[:"blue"]Luther, the Wesleys, and a multitude of others who NEVER kept the Sabbath will be in the kingdom, so who am I to judge that a Sunday-keeper will be kept out of heaven because they keep Sunday instead of the 7th-day Sab? But a day is coming before Jesus comes, when the full light of God's Law is made to shine and people are confronted with a choice: accept the mark of God or the mark of the beast.

Do you really believe that God by His grace would take into paradise a person who is totally & completely convinced that it is wrong to bow down to idols & yet worships one? or one who is totally & completely convinced it is wrong to be unfaithful to his/her spouse and yet commits adultery anyway? [/]

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My questions is this---If we are saved by Grace and not by Law, how is it that if one doesn't observe the Ten Cs, particularly the Sabbath, he is, or, is going to be lost?

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[:"blue"]See my answer above. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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If after you promised your wife at the altar "to forsake all others" and yet continue to consort with other women, can you really say you were committed to her?

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No...not really.

Then why aren't you being perfect to Christ your husband? You are the bride, right? Why do you play the harlot and go after the things of this world....Why Gerry, why?

If you are a sinner, Gerry, then you are not being true to Christ (if we go by your analogy). You are cheating….Oh sure, not a lot of cheating, just some cheating!

You see what happens when you use a bad analogy?

[Gerr]

Quote:

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ROBERT said:

Quote:

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If after you promised your wife at the altar "to forsake all others" and yet continue to consort with other women, can you really say you were committed to her?

---

No...not really.

Then why aren't you being perfect to Christ your husband? You are the bride, right? Why do you play the harlot and go after the things of this world....Why Gerry, why?

If you are a sinner, Gerry, then you are not being true to Christ (if we go by your analogy). You are cheating….Oh sure, not a lot of cheating, just some cheating!

You see what happens when you use a bad analogy?

---

[:"blue"]Bad analogy only because although you don't know me, you have judged me as being unfaithful to Christ. If you think spiritually or carnally adulterous people are admitted into heaven, you are sadly deluded my friend. [:"red"]Those who practice such things [adultery, fornication, etc. etc.] WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21. "For this you know, that NO FORNICATOR, unclean person, NOR COVETOUS MAN, who is an IDOLATER, HAS ANY INHERITANCE in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE. Therefore DO NOT be partakers with them." Eph 5:5-7 NKJ. [/]

What part of "NO" don't you understand, Robert? [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

I can't believe you are serious!

If so.............fuhgidaboudit!

Ben

[Robert]

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Quote:

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ROBERT said:

Quote:

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If after you promised your wife at the altar "to forsake all others" and yet continue to consort with other women, can you really say you were committed to her?

---

No...not really.

Then why aren't you being perfect to Christ your husband? You are the bride, right? Why do you play the harlot and go after the things of this world....Why Gerry, why?

If you are a sinner, Gerry, then you are not being true to Christ (if we go by your analogy). You are cheating….Oh sure, not a lot of cheating, just some cheating!

You see what happens when you use a bad analogy?

---

Bad analogy only because although you don't know me, you have judged me as being unfaithful to Christ.

---

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

According to your analogy sin is "cheating"....1 John 1:8

tells me that you have and are cheating....Yeah, I know, you'll tell me you don't mean to cheat..that it's unintentional cheating...a small slip up. Well try telling that to your wife.

Gerry you are a sinner (hopefully one who is maturing), but nevertheless a sinner. Hence you better not be under law.

Rob

[benherndon]

[NOT in answer to Robert!]

CoAspen, I think Gerry must have only quickly scanned my post. I don't think he got my questions. But that's OK. He's a very busy man. However, from my experience with him, he probably would not agree with me on the time of the day if we both only had one clock to look at!!

Thanks for your comments--it is kind of lonely in here, I admit!

Ciao!!

Ben

[Gerr]

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Gerry you are a sinner (hopefully one who is maturing), but nevertheless a sinner. Hence you better not be under law.

Rob

---

[:"blue"]And what is a maturing Christian like, Robert? One who is less & less respectful to parents? or more & more considerate to one's parents? Less & less faithful to one's spouse? or more & more faithful? Less & less neighborly? or more & more considerate for one's neighbors? One who is less and less obedient to God? or more & more obedient? Less & less like Christ? or more more like the obedient Christ? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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ROBERT said:

Quote:

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The Spirit who gives life is the same Spirit that writes God's law in the heart according to God's new covenant promise. It is "by that Spirit that you put to death the deeds of the body." Rom 8:13 NKJ. It is by that same Spirit that God "works in you both TO WILL and TO DO [i.e. obey] for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13 NKJ.

---

1] The Spirit does not add to what Christ did 2000 years ago. That work is complete! We are just by faith alone.

---

[:"blue"]So, since what Jesus did 2000 yrs ago was "complete" per your understanding of complete, then we don't need the Holy Spirit, right? If He has nothing to add, then you don't need the Spirit, right? [/]

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2] The work of the Holy Spirit is not to add to Christ's doing and dying....His first job is to convince us we are sinners and in need of Christ's righteousness.

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[:"blue"]And after He has convinced you that you are a sinner, then what? The vast majority of the world know they are sinners. Look what good that does!!! [/]

Quote:

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3] Once this is accomplished we begin to

experience

what the Bible terms sanctification. As EGW noted...this process lasts a lifetime and no matter how much we grow we will never reach perfection [see AA p. 560]*

Therefore "the law written on the heart" is a process....It is nothing more than sanctification - a life time of experiencing growth.

---

[:"blue"]So, what is Bible sanctification? Becoming less & less loving or more loving? Less & less obedient or more & more obedient? [/]

Quote:

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I say experience because it is the opposite of merit!

---

[:"blue"] Is that what you think a Christian does? Obey God's commandments so he/she could get merit? [/]

Quote:

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Do you want to experience growth? Well, there's only one way:

First you must be rooted and grounded in both the love of God and the gospel truth ("in Christ").

---

[:"blue"]And what is the EVIDENCE that the believer is grounded in the love of God?

[:"red"]"If you love Me, keep My commandments." Jn 14:15 NKJ.

"Loving God means keeping His commandments, and really that isn't difficult." 1 Jn 5:3 NLT.

"And how can we be sure that we belong to Him? By obeying his commandments. If someone says, 'I belong to God," but doesn't obey his commandments, that person is a liar and does not live in the truth." 1 Jn 2:3,4 NLT [/] [/]

---

That is the prerequisite to experiencing sanctification. Without it your fruits will be self-righteous.

Only when you are fully grounded and rooted in your assurance of salvation can you bear fruit.

---

[:"blue"]Again, let me ask you. What is this fruit? Disobedience or obedience? [/]

Quote:

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What you need Gerry is peace with God that justification brings [see Romans 5:1].....You don't have it because believers who have it are not insecure. Anyone who constantly harps on the law and uses it to hit other believers over the head is legalistic and insecure....

---

[:"blue"]If you call obeying God BECAUSE I love Him is legalism, then I confess I am guilty of it. But then you have to blame Jesus for it because it was He who commanded, [:"red"]"If you love Me, keep my commandments." [/] [/]

Quote:

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* "So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome;

so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained [fully overcome]."

---

[:"blue"] [:"red"]"Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it is because they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. But when people keep on sinning, it shows they belong to the Devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy these works of the Devil." 1 Jn 3:7,8 NLT.

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin..." 1 Jn 5:18 NIV [/] [/]

Gerry

[benherndon]

Gerry, the texts you are using---most of them at least-- you are using out of context and inappropriately applying them to the point of discussion---its like you aren't reading the other side's post and are reacting emotionally rather than logically.

Take your use of 1John 2:3,4----compare that verse with another in the same book, 1John 3:23: "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." This is the text I try to follow rather than the ones from Moses. The Mosaic era has passed with the Cross and resurrection. The curtain was ripped top to bottom signifying just that! Today we are and have been for a long time in the Christ-ian era. The two eras are not the same.

Its kind of like you, Gerry, are taking proof texts out of context and like you can't understand the New Testament because of the 'vail' that surrounds your mind and prevents you from seeing Jesus' truth. It was Moses that brought 'the Law' but it was Jesus that brought Grace and Truth!.(John 1) Whatever John says in one place must agree with what he says in another place. He doesn't write confusion like you are showing.

One must use the Bible only---- just like EGW said. It wasn't until I started doing that which caused me to see a lot of things I couldn't see otherwise. EGW was a saintly and Godly person wholly devoted in her own mind to God and the Son. She was honest at heart. She is like Hannah Whitall Smith who also was a saintly, Godly lady--but she exerts no authority over scripture. EGW also is 'pastoral'. She is like Charles Haddon Spurgeon who was a saintly Christian man. However, all of them including EGW said to go to the Bible alone for your authority on Christian living and preaching.

"But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms." Now I know how this was used by her. She thought her way was consistent with this.

She wrote, "The Bible and the Bible alone is to be your guide....you have no right to use the testimonies to prove doctrines."

"The testimonies of Sr. White should not be carried to the front. God's word is the unerring standard.....Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed Word of God" [that is, Bible]

"Our position and faith is in the Bible. And never do we want any soul to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible."

Now I know EGW wrote other statements and sentences, some of which might seem to contradict these statements. I believe she was correct in the statements I've presented and it was these statements that drove me to the Bible alone 30 yrs ago. It is the impression she gives in other statements about her own writings that cause me to classify her as 'pastoral' rather than 'prophetic'. Other Christian writers say similar things and I classify all extraBiblical writers as 'pastoral', too. I think that is the proper way to go.

Try it long enough and you will see it to be the best way. In my experience, it took away my spiritual depression of over 30 yrs ago and produced in me the actual "HOPE" of Eternal Life even though I am very far from perfect, in action, intent and thought.

I am not being angry or sarcastic and resentful in any way---I am rejoicing in understanding the Bible a lot more than I did previously. I simply cannot keep 613 laws. I cannot even keep 10 laws perfectly or close to perfect. Every day if I look at myself it is discouraging. But when I look to what Jesus said, I have renewed hope while recognizing I do not deserve anything but the second death.

I can't even keep Christ's Law perfectly but He and his other writers of the Bible have shown me that perfection in this life is not required quite like it was in the Mosaic era. He who believes in and calls on the name of Jesus, believing Him to be the Son of God who was raised from death to life and that He will come again gives me hope even though I am a sinner still. Contrary to your points about adultery to my wife, I cannot be properly classed in that category and the lack of perfect obedience to Christ's Law is not the same as living an adulterous life, cheating and murdering. Those sins, practiced, serial adultery and murder??---those people are the ones 'the Law' applies to. The Mosaic Law does not apply to Christians. It applies to the ungodly and not to the good man, just like 1Tim 1 says.

Now back off of condemning those as being from the abyss if they don't see everything like you and EGW do, obviously.

There will be lots of people in heaven that didn't know about EGW and her writings. If there is going to be a time when open defiance of Sunday Laws becomes the crucial point, I think the Holy Spirit will convict Christians who are honest at heart. However, I cannot find anything in the Bible that openly says such a development will happen. I know that EGW says it will happen. And....she may be right for I don't know the future outside of what the Bible plainly says. EGW said once for us to "demand a plain, "Thus saith the Lord" in its support." I agree with her and so far I've not found any such 'plain Thus said the Lord' about a deadly Sunday law in the Bible. It may happen and if it does I believe the Holy Spirit will convict those living at that time. We are a long way from it right now, it seems to me. In the meantime, Rom 14 and other texts seem to say to me that a man can make up his own mind but be considerate of those who don't agree with your exact beliefs.

This is my 'one string violin' Gerry mentions I have. Maybe he's right. Do I have a violin, figuratively--yes, I guess I do. Does it have at least one string! I'm glad about that. I wish I had more but I guess, to Gerry at least, I have only one. Poor Ben!

Ben

[Gerr]

So, to be changed into Christ's image is to become more & more worthless?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Ben, have I even once quoted EGW in response to any questions you might have had? Or any issues you have brought up? If so, show me ONE! I occasionally quote her in replying to Robert because he keeps bringing her up to back up his position when it is convenient, when in fact he only believes what he quotes.

As for my being out of context, when John says, "sin is the transgression of the law," what law was he refering to? Just the command to believe in the Son? Let's look at 1 Jn 2:3-6 again. "And by this we know that we have come TO KNOW Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, 'I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him; the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked." NASB.

The one who claims to know Him, is it not the person who already believe in Him? If by the "keep His commandments", John meant only "to believe in His Son," then it would not make sense for him to say that those who claim to know Him, those who believe already in Him would be liars if they do not keep His commandments since they already believe in Him!

Gerry

[Gerr]

Oh, do you also believe that obedience to law is not in the believer's vocabulary?

Gerry

[Robert]

Quote:

---

If you call obeying God BECAUSE I love Him is legalism, then I confess I am guilty of it. But then you have to blame Jesus for it because it was He who commanded, "If you love Me, keep my commandments."

---

No Gerry...you do not "keep the commandments" strictly out of love...you keep the law out of obligation and use love as a camouflage to hide your true intentions - to be seen of men!

Jesus doesn't say if you love me keep my commands or else...after all it was He who said, "The spirit (person) is willing, but the flesh is weak." Jesus came to save us from the law...not put us back under it.

That's why Paul asks, "Is the law sin?"....And his answer is "no"! Then why do we need to be delivered from the law? Because we are sinful [even though growing]....I mean read Paul dude:

Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment [i.e., in the absence of a understanding of its spiritual requirements], produced in me every kind of covetous desire....10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, just and good [i.e., it legally has a right to condemn us to eternal death]....14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."

Yes we grow...but in the law's eyes we will always be 100% sinners!!!! Only "in Christ" are we righteous by faith! What part of that can't you understand?

Maybe with your view you should join the Papacy...

[benherndon]

Would you just please do what you said you would do months ago---go through those texts I listed for you first and just a few days ago for Shane and interpret them??. I don't think Shane wants to get into it. Maybe you feel the same. I hope you are not uncomfortable dealing directly with them.

Do you personally know of anybody, SDA or otherwise, whom you would suspect would be in the following category? Read this again: "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars----their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." Rev 20:8-----I don't personally know of any Christian, SDA or otherwise, that I could say make me suspicious that they might be considered by our Lord to be amongst those referenced in this text!!

So, what I am saying here is that you, Gerry , are making it way to hard to be a 'born again' Christian when you try to emphasize that God is so severe against ordinary 'sin'. Christ died for sinners & came to save them..... and ALL who call on His name believing in Him as the Son of God who was raised from death to life, will be saved---Adventist or otherwise.

The John you, unfortunately quote out of context about 'commandments',says that there are 'sin's that do not lead to death.' We know there are sins that DO lead to death. But the 'sins' your fellow SDAs are committing are most probably NOT the ones that lead to death. Understand this text in the context of NT teaching.

This above IS my point in everything I have posted. What I post is to specifically refute the teaching that Christians need to be constantly on guard against losing their salvation. The same power that justifies also sanctifies and ALL of it is a gift. Wages are NOT gifts. Obedience to 'the Mosaic Law' is not a qualification of being a Christian IMO after reading the NT over and over and over again. But that point cannot be learned by SDAS so long as one considers extraBiblical sources are 'authoritative' like the NT is. That is 'reading Moses' which produces the 'vail' of 2Cor 3.

It is an egregious error for any SDA to criticise others for not accepting some of the things about which EGW wrote or were published over her name. She is "Pastoral"--quit fighting against that or you'll never understand the NT. This has been observed and shown over and over again.

Now if you aren't going to go into those texts I listed for you months ago and for Shane recently--- with all the credibility you can muster----then my comments on this thread are over.

God bless you all!

Ben