I'm told by adventist 31 AD Friday Crucifixion. Is this correct?

[todd_vetter33]

What I love about Christian history is that it is full of suprises. In this next chart that I would like to share with the readers of this thread is the Testimony of a second century Christian bishop who quotes primarily from the book of Matthew as it appeared in his day for this topic. The overall written work is alleged to have been written by the pen of Matthew himself, but this is clearly not true when read in full. This is just a short example of what was going on in the Christian church in the early years prior to the 3rd and 4th century councils which defined the perceptions you hold to be truth today.

Now I have to ask this Next question in all seriousness. This Second century Christian uses a method of inclusive reconning to attempt to explain the three days and three nights prophecy fulfilled. He covers at least 3 light time periods and 3 dark time periods in his explination. If you the reader of this post believe Jesus was Crucified on a Friday and Rose on the First day of the week. What makes your current perception more true, or more correct than the perception presented by the second century Biship who built his perception on the written Gospel works as they appeared in his day. I highligted area's of interest for you.

What you have available to you today which was finalized by Rome in the 3rd and 4th century, came after this Bishop made his attempt to explain 3 days and 3 nights as you see it in this short example. So who among the Christian world for the top time line in this Next chart is speaking according to the truth of Prophecy for the differing Christian perceptions presented?

[todd_vetter33]

Everything and all you say are above my IQ. I am a simple, uneducated, ignorant, rather barbaric sort of oukie.

You will NEVER get through to me with this learned stuff of yours.

All I can see in your theses is that plain Scripture is not adequate. Now since I am a Protestant who believes 'Sola Scriptura' like a Protestant ought, shall only answer with what is available to me and every other Christian like me. I'll stick to "It is written ..."

O yes … I do recognise something else in your treatises … you are one of the young brood of Club Exclusive of New Superior Exegetes. Exegetes and scholars of former eras were clueless traditionalists. They all thought ‘tehi miai sabbatohn’ or tehi prohtehi sabbatou’ meant “on the First Day of the week”.

In my examples i illustrate that Scripture is Adequate and truth.

it's the traditions of Christianity that Claim Scripture is False. Scripture is that which proceeded from the Mouth of prophets by direction of God. Pure truth.

Men who claim a Friday to Sunday time frame claim scripture is not truth.

What Christian men have in writings which they put in a book is mearly mans attempt at putting scripture into words on paper. Every Prophet who ever lived to include Jesus had no need for writings of men to speak scripture. They had a spirit of truth that delivered Sola Scripture. Sola Scripture is truth and If Jesus fulfilled truth with out the diversified inclusive reconnings of men which make God look like a liar, you may want to reconsider your definition of what classifies as scripture.

I know Scripture to be truth and not Error but I find christian doctrine which Christian men claim is with out Error to be full of Factual Error.

See below Chart for Example of just a few of the fact based Errors you find in Christian doctrine which Christian men claim is ispired by God. The chart by it's self if presenting factual spiritual truth, makes the chart a reflection of Scripture! Let me know if you find any portion of this chart not representing scripture (truth) correctly.

[todd_vetter33]

Let us cover the Factual Problems with the 31 AD Crucifixion Theory. First we'll start with 457 BC VS 458 BC.

This below chart represents both with out speculation or a need to ignore ten months of a kings reign to make truth be what we want it to be.

The Next Major issue with 31 AD is the Fact that in 31 AD, the Passover (14 Nissan), occurred on a Monday in accordance with the Laws of Moses Jesus claimed to fulfill and the scriptures of Time as defined by God. Due to people believing in a lie about a Friday Crucifixion, many diverse speculations and lies have been devised in an attempt to justify this. I have seen New luni-solar calendar theories, to Earth quake theories ECT.... In short, I have over 30 differing theories on file representing the lies men have dreamed up to defend a lie.

Truth needs no defense with a speculation from man, and truth will bare witness to truth. It's for this reason Jesus did not take truth to the Jews and Gentiles until he first received it via the spirit and taught his true followers to do the same. Jesus was firstborn from the dead and there were many who followed him. After Pentecost they to also become born from the dead and counted among the church of the firstborn.

The next chart illustrates how 31 AD (the lie in question) is off by a year when compared with the truth.

I have been accused in this thread by some who would claim that I am stating scripture Has Error. On the contrary I am claiming that Scripture is Perfect and I am illustrating this very clearly by this Chart. Their definition of Scripture is generally anything they find within the binding of an ever changing book titled holy bible. I define scripture as truth from God. The book titled holy bible has many places where truth is lacking.

To Illustrate that Truth from God is perfect, In this next chart over 9 time specific Scriptures come into perfect alignment on a single day in earth history. Christians would have you believe no time specific Scripture was fulfilled with out their method of inclusive reckoning which falls short of the words actually spoken by Jesus. What is even more amazing is that the Daniel 70 Weeks prophecy has a double prophecy fulfillment according to truth, where the 31 AD theorists fall short of illustrating any time specific prophecy fulfillment with out inclusive reckoning and lies to defend a lie.

Christians trapped in the darkness of the written doctrine and traditions of their Christian forefathers history is represented by the top half of the next page. Christians lacking the spirit of Promise that was granted to those who would walk in the way of repentance taught by John the baptist and Jesus, have many writings which they claim are perfect truth, but they simply make this claim because they have yet to know truth (GOD). They simply read about the men of the past who did know God and could hear the voice of truth.

It's a Fact of provable truth that the original Passover Lamb was Chosen by the people on the tenth day (a Sabbath Prior to the first Passover) then Slain on a Wednesday; Jesus followed this time line perfectly. Due to your bibles Factually misrepresenting the last week of the life of Jesus, Rome and Lucifer has managed to keep Christians lying about God, calling it truth from God, and keeping them cut off from true spiritual re-birth where they could possibly receive sola scripture from the source.

This below chart represents a handful of FACT based Errors that exist in bible testimony.

Seventh day Adventists keep the Sabbath day Holy which is Good for the Law is Good. In Fact the Law is Mans All. Why then do Seventh day Adventists not see how the bible gospels are causing them to stumble on all the other laws?

They make a book their word of GOD thus making God jealous.

They bare false witness about God by claiming truth mixed with lies was inspired by God and that things God never spoke are words in which he spoke. The list goes on and if you break one you break them all. How then is repentance being fulfilled if they strive not to resist sin?

Is the Seventh day Sabbath the only Commandment God requires Seventh Day Adventists to keep? According to the actions and doctrines of Seventh day Adventists, this is certainly implied.

I take my leave now and leave you with this last thought to ponder. Denominations are a picture perfect example of Discord. Discord is the end result of a lie in comparison to a lie or a lie in comparison to the truth. All of christianity builds on a book instead of the Law which is a foundation. Jesus was the foundation stone because he was the first to fulfill the Law and be firstborn from the dead. For you to be built on that foundation in spirit and in truth, you too must fulfil the law, for truth will bare witness to truth.

Only a true witness can deliver souls. Jesus was not the only true witness in earth history. Keep the commandments of God and you will have the testimony of Jesus. This does not mean you will have a book and quote from it. You will have a spirit of truth, be of the truth and hear Gods voice.

Until then enjoy reading about the men of the past who did. They are sealed waiting for the number of perfected souls to be reached.

And Jesus said, "I stood in the midst of the world, and in the flesh was I seen and heard, and I found all men glutted with their own pleasures, and drunk with their own follies, and none found I hungry or athirst for the wisdom which is of God. My soul grieveth over the sons and daughters of men because they are blind in their heart, and in their soul are they deaf and hear not my voice."

A person claiming from Friday to Sunday when Jesus said three days and three nights; Do they hear the voice of Jesus or simply hear what they want to hear? The witness of God is Prophecy. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy. If we believe not the witness that God gave his son. We make God look like a liar!

God Bless

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Thursday Night = Night 1 (when Christ was delivered to his enemies—the “heart of the earth”)

Friday Morning = Day 1

Friday Night = Night 2

Saturday Morning = Day 2

Saturday Night = Night 3

Sunday Morning = Day 3

Thus, "three days and three nights" makes perfect sense.

No single Scripture for any whichever 'point' or number or night or day ---no, not one.

Be so kind as to provide us too with your Scriptures?

I am not sure what your problem is Gerhard? You do realize that I am on your side, and defending you, correct? Are you sure you are grasping my arguments?

I believe the first day was Friday, the second day was Saturday, and the third day was Sunday, just like you!

The chart I made above was ONLY to address the "three days and three nights" phrase.

James White, Haskell, Uriah Smith (and more) believed that, concerning that particular expression, "three days and three nights", was alluding to beginning the night when Christ was delivered into the hands of his enemies....and all of them used several scriptures to prove that the "heart of the earth" was symbolic---meaning, the "earth" represented people on the earth. I did provide the scriptures---IN the articles written by Haskell and Uriah Smith, our pioneers.

Also, you are aware that Uriah Smith and Haskell and James White also agree with you? That Christ rose on the THIRD day? Christ died on Friday, during the day. But, the only reason why the expression "three nights" is included, concerning the "heart of the earth", is because contrary to popular belief, the "heart of the earth" cannot mean the grave under the earth. For Christ's tomb was on TOP of the earth, neither was Christ physically in the "heart" of the earth, in the middle by the core. That's just plain ridiculous.

That particular expression, "three days and three nights" was contrasted with Jonah, that Jonah fell into the power of a fish. Jonah was not in the "heart of the earth", but in a belly of a fish. Beginning Thursday night, Jesus fell into the power of his enemies.

Haskell, James White, and Uriah Smith do NOT believe that the expression "three days and three nights" represent 72 hours like some like to argue. But, they DO believe that when it says "three nights", it meant just what it said. Three nights. Thus, Friday began on Thursday night--when Christ was delivered into the heart of the earth--his "enemies"--like Jonah was delivered into the belly of a living sea monster.

It's not hard to see at all!

[Lysimachus]

I hope you realize by now Todd_Vetter, that it has been the general consensus with all of us in here, including the whole of Adventism, that your theories are wrong. And that we reject them, fully.

We have refuted and disproved your arguments, but so far, instead of intelligently addressing our objections, you continue like a steamroller or train, posting your long and eye-hurting charts, repeating the same ones over and over, rambling on like a parrot, full of tautological noise, that can't seem to get enough calendar crackers.

On top of all of that, you have yet to account for your rejection of the Spirit of Prophecy, and demonstrate how your flawed human perception somehow supersedes inspiration.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: todd_vetter33

In 31 AD 14 Nissan occured on a Monday

Todd, did you mean 32 AD? I can see how Nisan 14 could fall on a Monday in 32 AD, but not in 31 AD.

Since AP 6 is dated on Kislev 18 in "the beginning of the reign of Artaxerxes 1," which would be in January 464 BC, don't we know from this Jewish document that Artaxerxes' accession year did not end until 464? And that being so, don't we also know that his 7th year did not end until 457 BC?

The only question then would be if the Jewish scribes at Elephantine used a spring to spring calendar or a fall to fall calendar. If they used a fall to fall calendar, then Artaxerxes' 7th year would end at Tishri 457, making Ezra's Nisan journey fall in 457 rather than in 458.

Correct?

Unanswered by Todd_Vetter.

[todd_vetter33]

I hope you realize by now Todd_Vetter, that it has been the general consensus with all of us in here, including the whole of Adventism, that your theories are wrong. And that we reject them, fully.

We have refuted and disproved your arguments, but so far, instead of intelligently addressing our objections, you continue like a steamroller or train, posting your long and eye-hurting charts, repeating the same ones over and over, rambling on like a parrot, full of tautological noise, that can't seem to get enough calendar crackers.

On top of all of that, you have yet to account for your rejection of the Spirit of Prophecy, and demonstrate how your flawed human perception somehow supersedes inspiration.

You are successfully sharing with me your opinion which varies from other Christians in the Christian world. But your also succesfully illustrating that Jesus did not fulfill prophecy according to the scriptures of time as defined by God.

I see you took the untenable liberty in your Chart which alleges to disprove MY theories, to include the Suday day time period when the bible makes it very clear that Jesus was out of the tomb before the sun came up. I guess your opinion is more credible than the ancient record? There is no credible ancient record that has Jesus coming out of the tomb after the sun rose that day for the Sunday day time period to be a credible consideration.

The next issue you are faced with is the FACT that a Passover did not occur on Friday in 31 AD (I repeat FACT) in accordence with the laws of Moses Jesus claimed to fulfil. If Your opinion is greater than fact, then congradulations, your opinion just gave every Jew and Athiest a reason to not believe in Jesus as anyone special.

Now that I have answered your questions. Please answer me this: What makes your speculation for the fulfilment of 3 days and 3 nights more credible than the below presentation by a 2nd century Bishop who built his perceptions on the written gospel records that were avalable to him in his day. he at least is able to account for 3 light time periods and 3 dark time periods where the speculation you presented to me claimed suday as a Day time period even though Jesus was clearly free of the tomb before the Suday day time period was reached.

[todd_vetter33]

Since AP 6 is dated on Kislev 18 in "the beginning of the reign of Artaxerxes 1," which would be in January 464 BC, don't we know from this Jewish document that Artaxerxes' accession year did not end until 464? And that being so, don't we also know that his 7th year did not end until 457 BC?

The only question then would be if the Jewish scribes at Elephantine used a spring to spring calendar or a fall to fall calendar. If they used a fall to fall calendar, then Artaxerxes' 7th year would end at Tishri 457, making Ezra's Nisan journey fall in 457 rather than in 458.

Correct?

Which of the below Calendar illustrations for 31 AD are not clear for you? Clearly they illustrate a Passover on Monday. 32 AD also presents a Monday Passover the very next year, but this is not unheard of in the Jewish world as you will see by the third illustration. A Passover occurred on a Wednesday in 2002 and in 2003. That is two consecutive years in a row where the Passover occurred on the same day of the week.

What these calendar charts factually verify is that Jesus did not die on a Friday Preparation day in either 31 Or 32 AD if he fulfilled the Laws of Moses.

You will also notice that the Gregorian day count differs between the two 31 AD Calendar charts. What remains consistent is the scripture of time validating factually that the Passover occurred on a Monday for the 31 AD year.

Scripture of time = morning and evening cycle make a day according to scripture/ Seven days make a week cycle/ monthly new moon to new moon for lunar cycle. These are scripture that reveal truth concerning the Crucifixion to Resurrection event. Truth will bare witness to the truth and truth will expose the lie of Christian past traditions and doctrine.

This below chart lists Factually when the king came to power and Factually when the Seventh year of the king took place. If you choose a form of inclusive reconning to justify 457 BC then your calculations will end you up in a year where Prophecy fulfilment is an imposibilty with out more lies to justify and defend a lie.

This last chart illustrates FACTUALLY why 31 AD is not a credible consideration for a Friday Crucifixion if Jesus was to fulfil the law and prophets.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

The next issue you are faced with is the FACT that a Passover did not occur on Friday in 31 AD (I repeat FACT) in accordence with the laws of Moses Jesus claimed to fulfil. If Your opinion is greater than fact, then congradulations, your opinion just gave every Jew and Athiest a reason to not believe in Jesus as anyone special.

And I unabashedly declare that it is NOT a fact. I have not seen the evidence in your charts. I ask you kindly that you do not continue to repost your charts either. I have seen them a dozen times, and they prove nothing in light of what I presented. You can draw the most complex charts, but they do not change the fact that we have already demonstrated that Nisan 14 in 31 A.D. could have very well landed on a Friday. Your interpretations of the Mosaic records are distortions.

[todd_vetter33]

Quote:

The next issue you are faced with is the FACT that a Passover did not occur on Friday in 31 AD (I repeat FACT) in accordence with the laws of Moses Jesus claimed to fulfil. If Your opinion is greater than fact, then congradulations, your opinion just gave every Jew and Athiest a reason to not believe in Jesus as anyone special.

And I unabashedly declare that it is NOT a fact. I have not seen the evidence in your charts. I ask you kindly that you do not continue to repost your charts either. I have seen them a dozen times, and they prove nothing in light of what I presented. You can draw the most complex charts, but they do not change the fact that we have already demonstrated that Nisan 14 in 31 A.D. could have very well landed on a Friday. Your interpretations of the Mosaic records are distortions.

The charts are clearly illustrating SCIENCE Fact as well as SPIRITUAL fact concerning the passover of 31 AD. The Evening of 15 Nissan is always a full moon! There has never been a time in Jewsih history since the first Exodus where this is not a FACT.

With out the charts it's simply your opinion against my opinion. The charts are sharing visual truth to expose the lie.

I invite you to offer Provable truth, with more than your opinion, to clearly expose what I am sharing to not be a truth. Truth will always expose the lie and be confirmabable with more than simply opininion.

Feel free to check the credibility of the calendar and time line charts for where they illustrate a full moon. Because time is scripture that cannot be broken, it allows us to know when a solar eclipse, new moon, full moon, or lunar eclipse will happen before it happens. The timeing of the rotation of the celestial bodies is unchanging.

Using the below link, You can go forward or backward in time to detmine when the passover's in question occured for the years in question.

virtual Telescope

The truth I share illustrates prophecy fulfilment where the various opinions of the Christian world as early as the second century, have illustrated Jesus falling short of the greatest achievement of human history. More over, becaue the various Christians of Christian history cannot seem to tell this story according to the Law and Testimony (sprit of Prophecy), they simply loose credibility and cause Jesus to loose Credibility.

It's time to restore the Credibility of Jesus with provable truth and illustrate why the world is currently in the spiritual famine prophecied by Agabus as recorded in the christian doctrine of ACTS which they perceived was going to be a physical famine.

There is a reason a famine was professed 2000 years ago when Agabus met the First denomination of Christians. Christians today are the spiritual decendants of the people of antioch who brought about the Famine that is still going strong to this day!

If the people of this forum were convinced i am incorrect, this forum would not have so many views, and though you thing provable clear truth is not truth due to your tradtion and opinion, there are many who are reading the charts that I have been directed to share.

Blessings!

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Thursday Night = Night 1 (when Christ was delivered to his enemies—the “heart of the earth”)

Friday Morning = Day 1

Friday Night = Night 2

Saturday Morning = Day 2

Saturday Night = Night 3

Sunday Morning = Day 3

Thus, "three days and three nights" makes perfect sense.

3 days and 3 nights makes perfect sense; it's the counting that is not.

Why include Sunday morning daytime, when it is contended the Lord rose before the sun is up?

And why include delivering into the hands of the enemies as part of 3 days and 3 nights? 3 days and 3 nights is from crucifixion, from His death. Being in the heart of the earth is being in death. This can be inferred from God Himself. Referring to his death, God told Adam he is to return to the earth.

Why include Sunday morning daytime when it is contended the Lord rose before the sun is up?

Because the day begins at evening. But Christ rose early in the morning on Sunday. It is not the coming up of the sun that makes it "morning". Saturday night begins "Sunday". It is a day. But the "night" and "day" are fused together. Saturday night began the "third day". So regardless of how you look at it, it's still "three days" and "three nights" if counting from the time Christ was delivered into the hands of his enemies Thursday night.

Being in the tomb "three days" is in scripture. Being in the tomb "three days and three nights" is not. As was shown, Jesus connects the expression "heart of the earth" only with the expression "three days and three nights". The expression "heart of the earth" is never connected with "three days" alone.

"the heart of the earth" is symbolic of falling into the hands of His enemies, similar to Jonah falling into the hands of a great living sea monster.

Jonah says, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." (Jonah 2:6)

Jonah was in the belly of a fish, not inside the earth with bars about him forever, nor was he underneath mountains. It was symbolic.

[todd_vetter33]

Thursday Night = Night 1 (when Christ was delivered to his enemies—the “heart of the earth”)

Friday Morning = Day 1

Friday Night = Night 2

Saturday Morning = Day 2

Saturday Night = Night 3

Sunday Morning = Day 3

Why include Sunday morning daytime when it is contended the Lord rose before the sun is up?

Because the day begins at evening. But Christ rose early in the morning on Sunday. It is not the coming up of the sun that makes it "morning". Saturday night begins "Sunday". It is a day. But the "night" and "day" are fused together. Saturday night began the "third day". So regardless of how you look at it, it's still "three days" and "three nights" if counting from the time Christ was delivered into the hands of his enemies Thursday night.

Being in the tomb "three days" is in scripture. Being in the tomb "three days and three nights" is not. As was shown, Jesus connects the expression "heart of the earth" only with the expression "three days and three nights". The expression "heart of the earth" is never connected with "three days" alone.

"the heart of the earth" is symbolic of falling into the hands of His enemies, similar to Jonah falling into the hands of a great living sea monster.

Jonah says, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." (Jonah 2:6)

Jonah was in the belly of a fish, not inside the earth with bars about him forever, nor was he underneath mountains. It was symbolic.

[Pickle]

Originally Posted By: Pickle

Since AP 6 is dated on Kislev 18 in "the beginning of the reign of Artaxerxes 1," which would be in January 464 BC, don't we know from this Jewish document that Artaxerxes' accession year did not end until 464? And that being so, don't we also know that his 7th year did not end until 457 BC?

The only question then would be if the Jewish scribes at Elephantine used a spring to spring calendar or a fall to fall calendar. If they used a fall to fall calendar, then Artaxerxes' 7th year would end at Tishri 457, making Ezra's Nisan journey fall in 457 rather than in 458.

Correct?

Which of the below Calendar illustrations for 31 AD are not clear for you? Clearly they illustrate a Passover on Monday.

And just as clearly, those "Calendar illustrations" were produced by someone unaware of some very basic stuff about the Jewish calendar.

1. Why are they using HebCal instead of a program that calculates crescent visibility?

2. Why are they proposing that Passover occurred on March 26 (Julian)/March 24 (Gregorian), just three days after the spring equinox?

3. Can they provide any historical documentation to support that early of a Passover date?

4. Why is their Passover date so much later than the Passover dates of Elephantine?

5. Why wouldn't a Seventh-day Adventist be open to the possibility that Passover was in April in 31 AD?

[Gibs]

All are not in SDAdventism seeing 31 AD as the yr of Christ's crucifiction. No the yr is 30 AD and can't be no different. These yr for a day prophecies are all on the Jubilee calendar, the only calendar that is a yr for a day

The start date has to be a Jubilee yr as this is to be a new beginning and 457 BC is the only decree that fell on the Jubilee. Now please count 457 through 1 BC and you have 457 yrs of the 490 or 70 wks of yrs. Now only 33 more is needed to have the end of 490. So now we start the common era, 1 AD through 33 AD and that is our 490. Now 27, - 28, - 29, - 30, - 31, - 32 , -33 AD is that last wk and the 70'th and cannot you see 30 AD is the middle wk or wednesday yr.

Some want to put in a "0" yr., nope can't be done, 0 is zilch, nothing or no yr at all. Zero is nothing.

You end the BC era with 1 BC and start the AD era 1 AD! Very, very simple math.

Now the Jews who crucified Jesus used the Babylonian method of reckoning a new moonth and they were two days late of seeing the first sliver and so their passover fell on the Seventh Day Sabbath making it "an high day" for them.

Now please read and understand,

Joh 19:31 ¶ The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Jesus was already dead before sunset and they didn't need to break up his legs.

Folks He died near the end of preparation day, Friday and you can bring up accurate calendars for that yr and it will jibe.

The true Passover was on a Thursday and Jesus and His kept it then from calculating it accurately. Yes two passovers was observed more than that once, it occurred because of not calculating the first sliver correctly. The moon and sun would be almost together and couldn't be observed at first.

The 3 nights verse has to be ironed out but this sets it rock solid as the time of death. He arose before sunrise Sunday morning which day began at sundown Sabbath.

Then after the close of that 70'th wk, 33 AD, then again a Jubilee and low and behold, for sure another new beginning, the Gospel commission goes to the Gentiles. And now the times of the Gentile is about fulfilled.

Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Are we not about there,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Gerhard, if Christ did not rise Sunday morning, what day are you saying he rose? I'm still not sure which position you're trying to defend. I know it can't be Samie's, because you disagree with him it appears, and I know you can't agree with Tom_Vetter, as you are also arguing with him. It also appears you do not agree with me either, so now I am really lost. So please tell me, what sets your view as "unique" here? Please do not go into a lengthy explanation. Your explanations are above for which I can always go over more thoroughly in the future. Just tell me: What is your position in laymen's terms. Which day and when do you believe Jesus rose? And which day and when do you believe Jesus died on the cross? I don't need any "proof" for your position, I can always go back. It will just help me to know what your posts are trying to prove so that I can wear the right lenses when reading them. Thanks!

[Lysimachus]

[so — READING THE OLD BIBLES IN MATTHEW 28:1, the oldest of them all, the Greek Bible — regardless of how you look at it, it's still "three days" and "three nights", when “… there was a great earthquake on the Sabbath Day’s completion, mid-afternoon beginning to incline towards the First Day of the week …” counting back to the _'day'_ Christ was delivered into the hands of his enemies Thursday MORNING.

"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this NIGHT, BEFORE the [rooster] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice." (Matthew 26:34)

"And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [rooster] shall not crow this DAY, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me." (Luke 23:34)

As we can see here, the rooster would crow "this day" and "this night". Thus, the night and the day are fused together as, and three days and three nights makes all the sense in the world.

It is evident that Peter began to deny Christ long before morning. In fact, his 3 denials had about the space of an "hour" in between. (Luke 22:59), and Jesus was delivered before Peter BEGAN to deny Christ, and the [rooster] crowed AFTER the three denials.

That same night Jesus was taken captive. And it was this NIGHT that Peter would deny Jesus 3 times. Therefore, it could not be morning if Jesus said it was NIGHT!

"Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad." (Matthew 26:31)

After the [rooster] crowed, Luke says, "And as soon as it was day...the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council..." (Luke 22:66)

It was THAT day that He was crucified, and it was on FRIDAY. No more days transpire from that point forward. And when we take into account that the next day was the Sabbath, it all falls into place.

[Lysimachus]

Gerhard:

Re: Samie’s, “Why include Sunday morning daytime when it is contended the Lord rose before the sun is up?”

You must remember, Lysimachus, it’s Samie who said so.

Re: Lysimachus,

“… Christ rose early in the morning on Sunday.”

Lysimachus, reach for any Bible Version up and until the nineteenth century and quote what you here stated!

Now, Lysimachus, reach for any of the most Bible versions since the twentieth century … and now, you can quote “… Christ rose early in the morning on Sunday” …???

No, you STILL cannot!

Or am I mistaken?

Then please do quote for me and supply me with the Book, chapter and verse where you read it?

Mark 16:9 “Now when Jesus was RISEN early the FIRST day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”

Unless you are to convince me that the First Day of the Week is some other day than Sunday, I see no way out of a Sunday morning conclusion of this, as Sunday obviously began on Saturday night, from evening to evening, sunset to sunset.

[Lysimachus]

It is very apparent that many have not taken time to read all 3 pages of this website:

http://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/

[todd_vetter33]

1. Why are they using HebCal instead of a program that calculates crescent visibility?

2. Why are they proposing that Passover occurred on March 26 (Julian)/March 24 (Gregorian), just three days after the spring equinox?

3. Can they provide any historical documentation to support that early of a Passover date?

4. Why is their Passover date so much later than the Passover dates of Elephantine?

5. Why wouldn't a Seventh-day Adventist be open to the possibility that Passover was in April in 31 AD?

I used HebCal because it's an unbiased Jewish witness concerning when a Jewish Celebration took place that Jesus claimed to fulfill. This witness calculates Jewish time with Gregorian time.

I used a separate Jewish Calendar that also calculates in Jewish time and Gregorian time so that there are more than one witness for truth. You are welcome to use a calendar that uses Lunar Graphics and you will find they line up perfectly with the calendar illustrations shared.

I was instructed by the voice of truth to share these two witnesses specifically to illustrate that even though the time measureing methods of man which are not scripture, do not always agree, the scripture of time however does! The scripture of time tells the truth of when the Passover of the years in question occured. The scripture of time also reveals the truth concerning what Jesus fulfilled even though the various inclusive reconning of the Christian world through Christian history have made God look like a liar.

I Validated the Data using a Program found that his link

Virtual Telescope

The virtual Telescope allows a simple person like us to check Factual Data concerning the Lunar cycle for the years in question. If you would like I can use the Virtual telescope to take snapshots of the lunar cycle as seen above Jerusalem for the nights in question and paste them onto the two calendar illustrations I shared for you. This would not be a problem.

To answer your third Question: The historical Data shared for your Third Question is the Scripture of Time (Evening and morning day cycle/weekly cycel/ Lunar cycle. They tell you when the Passover occured for the years in Question. Do you need a more precise historical record?

“ ‘And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,’ says the LORD” (Isaiah 66:23).

Since all Flesh has not yet come to worship the lord, The ceremonial Laws which much of Christianity ignores do still apply to revealing truth and exposing the darkness of the Christian world!

For this shared Isaiah prophecy to come true, Christians will need to stop illustrating to the world that God lied to them by telling lies about the only sign that was given to this wicked Christian generation.

They need to get the one sign that was given to the wicked and adulterous generation right, or the wicked will never come out of the darkness they are in and have been in for much of Christian history. God spoke the truth in Prophecy and Christians didn't believe it. Because they did not believe God's witness of his son (Prophecy), they have trampled the truth into the mud and become lovers of a lie. Surely the world has falling away saith the Lord of Hosts.

When Christians understand why they are divided from each other due to the lie, they will understand why they are divided from God and why they hear not the voice of truth that they read about men of the past receiving while in spirit and in truth!

There is a reason that Crime scene investigators make a time line to solve a murder. Time lines, when the scripture of time is applied, reveals true witnesses from False witnesses. The Law Jesus claimed to fulfill concerning Passover was a time specific Law that will reveal truth concerning the lies told in bible testimony (doctrines of Men) and Traditions. These are two things Jesus warned you about! Jesus didn't read this warning to you with a book, but with words of truth from the spirit of truth. The book simply attempts to record this warning but you are destined to receive word of God as Jesus did if you keep the commandments of God. Prophecy says you will have the Testimony of Jesus! Jesus didn't need a book and neither do any of you. You simply need the spirit of promise that Jesus promised you should you walk in HIS way and fulfil the Law as he taught!

Duestion: Did Jesus reveal himself to the apostles in a closed room in Jerusalem the night after his resurrection? The bible would imply this, but is it true? What did the angel say to the women who arrived at the tomb?

"And go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him; lo, I have told you."

If these are words of truth (PROPHECY) spoken by a messenger of GOD, Why does the Christian bible imply Jesus met the disciples the night after he rose from the dead in an upper room? Jesus rising in the middle of the feast of unleavened bread gave his disciples 3 days to reach Galilee before appearing to them at the end of the Feast of unleavened bread. This is a spiritual fact even though your bible causes Christians to tell a lie when they claim the lies found in it's pages are truth from God.

If men do not repent from that which causes them to stumble, they will never know God. They will simply read about men of the past who did and remain trapped in a cycle of learning that which does not save but keep them drunk and confused!

You must make yourself ready to meet with the bride groom. This cannot be done if you continue in sin. Seventh day Adventists strive to keep the Sabbath, yet with Doctrine and Traditions, ignore the rest of God's law.

Your Fifth Question is a humdinger of a question. Seventh day Adventist currently teach a Friday Crucifixion. If you went with the April month of 31 AD, you would have a Passover occuring on a 14 Nissan (Wednesday)for 31 AD if April was the correct month where Passover was held in that year. This mean Jesus, if he fulfilled the Law and Prophets, which he did indeed do, would have been crucified on a Wednesday, NOT FRIDAY. You may really want to recheck the Friday Catholic Crucifixion theorydeveloped in the second century and still shared by Seventh day Adventists unto this day.

The best way to know the truth is that truth will bare witness to the truth. I in spirit and in truth rest my case. Please feel free to check, double check and triple check all the data and charts I have shared with you if truth is important to you.

[Pickle]

Originally Posted By: Pickle

1. Why are they using HebCal instead of a program that calculates crescent visibility?

2. Why are they proposing that Passover occurred on March 26 (Julian)/March 24 (Gregorian), just three days after the spring equinox?

3. Can they provide any historical documentation to support that early of a Passover date?

4. Why is their Passover date so much later than the Passover dates of Elephantine?

5. Why wouldn't a Seventh-day Adventist be open to the possibility that Passover was in April in 31 AD?

I used HebCal because it's an unbiased Jewish witness concerning when a Jewish Celebration took place that Jesus claimed to fulfill.

[Q.E.D.]

Believe It or Not!

I was instructed by the voice of truth to share these two witnesses.

Uhhhh. . . Methinks it's time to read my King James Bible.

Q.E.D.

[todd_vetter33]

It is very apparent that many have not taken time to read all 3 pages of this website:

http://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/

I did indeed read this in full. Though it presents partial verses and phrases from bible testimony along with the authors opinion out of true context to where the verses should be placed on a time line, The testimony at this link does not disprove the Wednesday Crucifixion truth. It simply illusrtates elaborate speculations and lies to justify the lie probogated through out much of Christian history past down from Generation to generation.

There is nothing in the testimony found at the link to establish his version of perceieved truth over that of the second century Bishop who's testimony is also shared in this thread and falls short of illustrating prophecy fulfilment.

Blessings

[todd_vetter33]

A gift for Lysimachus & Gerhard,

Since you both are confused by the 4 divided half truths of the bible concerning the time of resurrection. Below is the testimony from the G-12 text that the 4 bible gospels originated from. Perhaps it will provide for you some clarity to end your discord. If Not, I recommend true repentance so that when you ask God, he can answer you and you will hear his voice!

NOW after the Sabbath was ended and it began to dawn, on the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene to the sepulcher, bearing the spices which she had prepared, and there were others with her. And as they were going, they said among themselves, who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulcher? For it was great. And when they came to the place and looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away. For behold there was a great earthquake; and the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lighting and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead men. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him; lo, I have told you. And they entered in and found not the body of Jesus. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher, and we know not where they have laid him. And they ran and came to the sepulcher, and looking in, they saw the linen clothes lying, and the napkin that had been about his head not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped up in a place by itself. And it came to pass as they were much perplexed, behold, two angels stood by them in glistening garments of white, and said unto them, why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, he is risen, and, behold; he goeth before you into Galilee, there shall we see him. Remember ye not how he spake unto you, when he was yet in Galilee, that the Son of Man should be crucified and that he would rise again after the third day? And they remembered his words. And they went out quickly and fled from the sepulcher, for they trembled with amazement, and they were afraid. NOW at the time of the earthquake, the graves were opened; and many of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the city and appeared unto many. But Mary stood without at the sepulcher weeping, and as she wept she again stooped down, and looked into the sepulcher and saw two angels in white garments, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. And they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? . She saith unto them, because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus said unto her, Mary, She turned herself and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father One with my Mother, but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Parent and your Parent; to my God and your God. And Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her, and commanded her to announce his resurrection from the grave.

[todd_vetter33]

Originally Posted By: todd_vetter33

I used HebCal because it's an unbiased Jewish witness concerning when a Jewish Celebration took place that Jesus claimed to fulfill.

False. HebCal is calculating Jewish dates based on a system that was not devised until long after the cross. Anyone conversant with ancient Jewish chronology knows this to be true.

Check it out in your own Bible: two days after the Passover a sheaf of barley had to be waved before the Lord, and barley harvest began about that time. If the barley wasn't ripe enough, then the start of the year was postponed a month.

After Jerusalem was destroyed, rather than observe the barley and when the new crescent would appear, the Jewish diaspora simply used calculations, which often were a month too early. For this reason, the Karaite Jews who rejected all rabbinical traditions celebrated their feasts often a month later than the rabbanite Jews.

Originally Posted By: todd_vetter33

I used a separate Jewish Calendar that also calculates in Jewish time and Gregorian time so that there are more than one witness for truth.

"... that also calculates ...." Same error as before. You can use 1000 of these calendars and you'll still end up with the wrong answer.

Originally Posted By: todd_vetter33

To answer your third Question: The historical Data shared for your Third Question is the Scripture of Time (Evening and morning day cycle/weekly cycle/ Lunar cycle. They tell you when the Passover occured for the years in Question. Do you need a more precise historical record?

Absolutely. The Jewish colony in Elephantine didn't celebrate Passover that early, based on the records we have. If you want to propose that Passover was on March 26 in 31 AD, even though at that season it's hard to imagine the barley being ripe enough, you really need to provide some sort of evidence to that effect other than Jewish calendars that weren't devised until much later.

Originally Posted By: todd_vetter33

Jesus rising in the middle of the feast of unleavened bread gave his disciples 3 days to reach Galilee before appearing to them at the end of the Feast of unleavened bread.

Correction: Luke 24:18-21 clearly say that Jesus spoke with the disciples on the road to Emmaus 3 days after the crucifixion, not the resurrection. I take it that you presently believe it was much longer than 3 days, and for good reason! A Wednesday crucifixion to late Sunday afternoon isn't 3 days!

Originally Posted By: todd_vetter33

Your Fifth Question is a humdinger of a question. Seventh day Adventist currently teach a Friday Crucifixion. If you went with the April month of 31 AD, you would have a Passover occuring on a 14 Nissan (Wednesday)for 31 AD if April was the correct month where Passover was held in that year.[/quote']

Note: Depending on what crescent sighting criteria you use, Nisan 14 could fall on either Wednesday or Thursday in 31 AD, all other factors ignored. Thus we only need a delay of one day to move Passover from Thursday to Friday.

On what basis are you proposing that the weather was perfect, such that no delay in observing the crescent moon occurred?

You've already made clear that you highly respect today's rabbinic calendar to the point of projecting it backwards in time authoritatively to when it didn't yet exist. That rabbinic calendar contains a number of postponement rules. On what basis are you saying that there couldn't possibly be any postponement rules in the Jewish calendar of Jesus' day? You can't have it both ways. If you allow for postponement rules in the calendar you want to have operating in Jesus' day, you can't deny the possibility that the calendar that was really in operation did indeed have postponement rules.

So (a) there could have been delays in seeing the new crescent, and ( there could have been postponement rules.

What Amazes me most is the extent that a person will go to speculate that jesus did not fulfil the law and prophets that he claimed to fulfill, just to defend a tradition they believe to be truth. But then there is no evidence or example of that ever happending in Christian history !!! Giggle!

The calendar that I respect is the Day cycle where an evening and morning make a day, the 7 day week cycle as well as a lunar cycle. They have never changed since the first evening and morning made the first day and so on...

The whole purpose for illustrating two separate Jewish calendars was to illustrate the very point you bring up about Hebecal. The Scripture of time that bares witness to time specific prophecy fulfilment remains consistant betweeen the two different Jewish calendars!

To speculate and lie your way into a ditch is to only end up in a ditch.

[todd_vetter33]

"NOW after the Sabbath was ended and it began to dawn, on the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene to the sepulcher, bearing the spices which she had prepared,"

Where did you get THAT from, old chap?!

That Quote came from the Didascalia Apostolorum. It was written by a second century Bishop basing his opinion of the death and resurrection time line on the gospels as they appeared in his day.

It's only the opinoin of Christians that what they have in writing has never been altered by Rome. Is their opinion correct?

Blessings