Luther on the Antichrist

[Gibs]

John317,

Just curious, how do you get around her statement here then,

In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

I suppose you think the USA is going to bring fire down from heaven to prove it is God. No for sure this will be an act of Satan as He comes personating Christ and this he will do. You may mark my words on it and that will be fine.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

We will soon see and it is not a salvation issue.

[John317]

I believe Satan will use people to bring fire down from heaven, but that fire can take different forms. It could be speaking in symbolic terms since the whole chapter is symbolic. The words "beast," "image," "mark," "number of his name," and so on, are symbols. It appears to mean that Satan will perform miracles to try and prove that God is supporting the beast powers. So he may try to counterfeit the miracle that was done on Mt. Carmel during Elijah's day.

I do agree with you that Satan will definitely impersonate Christ's second coming in every way possible.

In any case, the paragraph in GC 440 shows without question that Ellen White taught and believed the USA is the fulfillment of the prophecy of the second beast of Rev. 13. Of course, Satan is the REAL power behind those beasts.

We clearly agree on much more than we disagree on, and like you say, it isn't a salvation issue.

[BobRyan]

Here is a bit on "THE" antichrist, by Sister White. After you read this and note she quotes Re 13:13-17, take your Bible in hand and see if you can separate any of the text from this from Re 13:11 trough 18. I'm telling you now you cannot.

What's the point? The point is she is pointing out Satan is the beast of Re 13:11 on to the end. Read it and learn!

"In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

It is wake up time!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

yes - Ellen White points to the Rev 13 and 2Thess 2 entity as Satan.

And she points to the 2Thess 2 and Daniel 7, Daniel 8 and Rev 13's first beast as the papacy.

But where does she call the Papacy "the antichrist"?

I have not found it yet.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I believe Satan will use people to bring fire down from heaven, but that fire can take different forms. It could be speaking in symbolic terms since the whole chapter is symbolic.

Whatever it is - it causes the whole world to wonder after the beast and worship him.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

"The Pope is the Antichrist, because he is against Christ, because he takes liberties with the things of God, because he lords it over the temple of God." [Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (1535)by Martin Luther, Chapter 3, pp. 106-135]

"The moment I open my mouth the Pope begins to fume and to rage. It seems we must choose between Christ and the Pope. Let the Pope perish." [Chapter 4, pp. 172-193]

"You would never know the devil could be so gentle, the world so sweet, the Pope so gracious, and the princes so charming. But because we seek the advantage and honor of Christ, they persecute us all around." [Chapter 5, pp. 194-216]

When we call the Pope the Antichrist and his minions an evil brood, we do not slander them. We merely judge them by the touchstone of God's Word recorded in the first chapter of this Epistle: "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." [Chapter 6, pp. 237-251]

No question that Luther called the Pope - antichrist and before Luther - the Popes themselves called each other antichrist.

Still I would like to find out if Ellen White ever refers to the papacy as the antichrist.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Satan is THE antichrist, all others are AN antichrist after their father the devil. The pope and all others that are, are an antichrist. There is only one THE antichrist. That is is father of them all.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Sounds good. But I was wondering if anyone had found a place where Ellen White refers to the Papacy as "an antichrist" or "the antichrist" or "antichrist" at all.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Quote:

The fourth commandment has been trampled upon, therefore we are called upon to repair the breach in the law and plead for the broken down Sabbath. The man of sin who exalted himself above God, and thought to change times and laws, brought about the change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week. In doing this he made a breach in the law of God. Just prior to the great day of God, a message is sent forth to warn the people to come back to their allegiance to the law of God which antichrist has broken down. Attention must be called to the breach in the law by

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precept and example. I was shown that the third angel proclaiming the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, represents the people who receive this message and raise the voice of warning to the world, to keep the commandments of God and his law as the apple of the eye, and that in response to this warning many would embrace the Sabbath of the Lord.” {LS80 236.3}

She clearly indicates that the "man of sin" is antichrist. She does not say the man of sin, i.e., the papacy, is THE antichrist, but that he is antichrist. Satan is THE antichrist and the earthly powers he uses are antichrists. The papacy is simply one of those antchrists, though a very prominant one in prophecy.

[Lysimachus]

It's really simple Gibs.

Satan is the ultimate Antichrist, but what is the manifestation of Antichrist? Through the Beast power, the physical manifestation of Antichrist--the "chief Antichrist"--though there be many.

The Beast power, the Papacy, is the Antichrist. Why? Because Satan possesses it. Gives power to it. It's like the Serpent that deceived Eve.

Was the serpent Satan? Yes and No. The serpent was an animal, but Satan possessed it. Likewise, the Dragon gives power UNTO the Beast. It speaks through the beast. The Papacy is the power for which Satan speaks through....the ultimate Antichrist reveals himself through the Beast Power, which is the physical expression of the Antichrist. Let's not get so "hung up".

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

In the counsels of the synagogue of Satan it was determined to obliterate the sign of allegiance to God in the world. Antichrist, the man of sin, exalted himself as supreme in the earth, and through him Satan has worked in a masterly way to create rebellion against the law of God and against the memorial of his created works. Is this not sin and iniquity? What greater contempt could be cast upon the Lord God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, than is cast upon him by ignoring the Sabbath, which he instituted, sanctified, and blessed, that it might ever be a memorial of his power as Creator? How dare men change and profane the day which God has sanctified? How dare the Christian world accept the spurious sabbath, the child of the Papacy? The Christian world has nourished and cherished the spurious sabbath, as though it had a divine origin, when the fact is that it originated with the father of lies, and was introduced to the world by his human agent, the man of sin. The false sabbath has been upheld through superhuman agency in order that God might be dishonored. It is a sign of Satan's supremacy in the earth, for men are worshiping the God of this world. {ST, March 12, 1894 par. 3}

Quote:

The man of sin is worshiped in the person of the pope, and his representative, the cardinal. But God has not given this power to pope or prelate. The pope is not regarded by God as anything more than a man who is acting out in our world the character of the man of sin, representing in his claims that power and authority which Satan claimed in the heavenly courts. {5MR 102.2}

She identifies the Antichrist as the "Man of Sin".

She also identifies the "Man of Sin" as the "Pope".

Pretty obvious who she is calling the Antichrist.

[Robert]

I agree with everything here except your statement that "if Christ assumed our humanity before the Fall, then He can only be our example..."

[Robert]

Jesus Christ became sin for us.

[Robert]

But Jesus knew no sin, i.e., He never sinned! How could He be charged by the Father with something He never did?

Ez 18:4 The one who sins is the one who will die.

Keep in mind that "the wages of sin is death". Sin pays in death.

verse 20: The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

In other words God can't legally & morally charge Christ with something He never did, i.e., sin. If you say that He became sin (as in a sinner) then law would have condemned Him and Christ couldn't be our righteousness.

[BobRyan]

According to 1John 2 - Christ is our example and we are to "walk as He walked" or else we are liars in our claim to know Him.

Jesus took the sinless nature of Adam before the fall - and the fallen physical nature of man 4000 years after the fall.

Those who claim that he cannot be our example if he takes on the sinless nature of Adam instead of a sinful nature with its propensities to sin - are not seeing the big picture. If you make such a claim - that Christ has to have all of your same problems or else it does not count - then the drunk needs Christ to also have lived a life of drunkeness and then try drying out, the immoral person needs Christ to be addicted to immorality through a life of sin and then try out the Gospel promise of victory over ingrained deep rooted sin, the theif needs Christ to have been addicted to theft in a life of crime and then try accepting the Gospel while in prison or while surrounded by stolen wealth to give it all away.

Every walk of life could then demand some "exact replica" before accepting Christ as our true example - if you allow that claim above regarding the sinless nature of Adam and Christ to stop you from accepting Him as our example. It is a game that has no end once you start down that road.

Moses was tempted to strike the rock twice -- as leader of Israel as a model of a true Christian. Meanwhile -- the rest of the children of Israel could strike as many rocks as they wished - no harm no foul. Christ was tempted to turn a rock into bread in Matt 4 after 40 days of not eating anything.

You and I are free to make bread and if we could - to turn stones into bread all we wish - if we had that ability. No harm no foul. Christ was tempted to "think a thought" that would change the current of thought of his persecutors - while he was being tortured - causing them to repent, or see the light, or feel a bit hesitant to continue etc. We may think such thoughts all we wish in a similar circumstance - no harm no foul.

His temptations went far beyond that of ours.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

Yes Jesus had the two natures and of which we may have His Divine Nature also.

Temptation is not sin, and we are tempted on every hand and you can know Satan really hit Jesus with all of them in his book to bring Him down, Satan knew he must or his days were numbered.

Yes we can know Christ was tempted in all that Satan has in his bag of tricks.

Sister White has a word on this,

"Temptation is not sin. Jesus was holy and pure; yet He was tempted in all points as we are, but with a strength and power that man will never be called upon to endure. In His successful resistance He has left us a bright example, that we should follow in His steps. If we are self-confident or self-righteous we shall be left to fall under the power of temptation; but if we look to Jesus and trust in Him we call to our aid a power that has conquered the foe on the field of battle, and with every temptation He will make a way of escape. When Satan comes in like a flood, we must meet his temptations with the sword of the Spirit, and Jesus will be our helper and will lift up for us a standard against him." {Mar 82.3}

That statement is Biblical truth and cannot be controverted by the honest truth seeker.

Blessings to all to see the way Jesus has made for us to be victorious over Satan.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

[John317]

[John317]

[Robert]

Quote:

Jesus took the sinless nature of Adam before the fall....

Jesus didn't come to save those with a sinless nature. He came to save those with a sinful nature.

[Gibs]

For sure, for sure as if we all would have had sinless natures He probably wouldn't had needed to have came unless one fell to Satan as Adam and Eve did. But I find if Satan hadn't of gotten Adam and Eve his case would have been closed.

Yes Jesus had in Him the sinless nature nature of Adam before the fall but he also had our physical body and nature developed for around 4,000 yrs..

Satan of course had a good idea he could get him to fall because of that. But the Divine Nature in Him was stronger than the temptations of Satan as He was not beguiled as Eve was, remember Adam wasn't beguiled, he knew and disobeyed.

The wondering I have and I think I have read of it in SOP is if Adam had not disobeyed what would have been the course taken with Eve. I know and believe Jesus would have come and died for just that one.

Question, would God allowed them to have children?

From an old old story Eve wasn't Adam's first wife, Lillith created equal was. Adam wasn't made to be the head and Lillith rebelled and flew away and joined Satan.

Then it was God took from Adam Eve that she would be of him and he the head.

True or false? Probably false or it probably would have been in the Word to us.

Oops! I got some off track of the thead there.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

So I ask the question, "How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?" According to the Bible itself no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one!

John317 has tried to answer the question, but that's the only one. Does anyone else want to attempt an answer?

[Gibs]

That is why it had to be one equal to or above the law, the lawgiver Himself. He alone could do it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

That is why it had to be one equal to or above the law, the lawgiver Himself. He alone could do it.

But Christ's Deity didn't die. Christ's assumed humanity died. His humanity wasn't equal or above the law. In fact His humanity was condemned by the law. His humanity, which is belonged to us, was condemned the moment He was born of a woman. (See Gal 4:4) It was condemned because of indwelling sin (our bent to self).

Did you know that you are condemned not only for your sins (transgression), but also for having a sinful nature?

Go to Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth....

Sinful by transgression? No, guilt involves volition. Infants don't understand sin or righteousness. Then why are they sinful at birth? They are born with a sinful nature. This the spirit of the law condemns.

So Christ, as one of us, was born with a nature that condemned Him. But let's not drag His mind into this. His mind was born under the control of the Spirit. So He wasn't born with His mind in bondage to His assumed nature. Therefore from birth He was born spiritually alive....

So again, the fact that we have a sinful nature condemns us. This is clear from Romans 7:17

But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells...

[Robert]

So again, the fact that we have a sinful nature condemns us.

Does Ellen White agree? I know I'll be asked this.

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression.

Ellen White doesn't mean we are born guilty of Adam's sin, but rather condemned because his nature was passed to us through procreation. So we are born condemned because we have a nature that disqualifies us for heaven.

That's clear from the following:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh (Sarx) and blood (our humanity indwelt by sin) cannot inherit the kingdom of God....

[Gibs]

Deity cannot die, but God did what only could be done to save guilty man. He dwelt in His son and the Father determines the blood of the offspring.

The blood in the son was of the Father and here we read the fact of it.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

" The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone, is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we shall walk even as He walked. {AG 137.2}

There are two errors against which the children of God --particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace --especially need to guard. The first . . . is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. . . . {AG 137.3}

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption. . . . If the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? . . . Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. . . . {AG 137.4}

Where there is not only a belief in God's Word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith--faith that works by love, and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day" (Psalm 119:97). And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1). {AG 137.5}

Since she touched on points against works to obtain salvation and then what works is about I let her ramble on here as it surely is the truth of the matter.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God;

Gibs, please keep to the topic!

Apparently no one knows the gospel? That's sad because if you can't understand the gospel legalism is right around the corner.